The MIDDLEWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Keko]

in three days 17 of us wrote and now we wait, thirty days seems long

It's the name of the game, sir. Giving everyone the chance and time to have their say.

Well said mate. Some of us need time to think/procrastinate.

I did not say that something has changed, but only so long. 90% of us already know that your 10 list for each category.

[Crease]

I did not say that something has changed, but only so long. 90% of us already know that your 10 list for each category.

Fair enough. We will get to all of them. Everyone lives busy lives, which is way it's best to take it monthly, I don't want anyone being omitted just because they were rushed of their feet in their life.

Patience is a virtue.

[Techno89]

My top 10 Middleweights are:

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Harry Greb
3.Carlos Monzon
4.Marvin Hagler
5.Bernard Hopkins
6.Stanley Ketchel
7.Sam Langford
8.Roy Jones Jr
9.Bob Fitzsimmons
10.Charley Burley

[Tomasino]

1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Harry Greb
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Mickey Walker
8. Billy Papke
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. GGG

Just out of interest, why do you rate Stanley the best ever at 160? Also, Billy Papke?

[keithmoonhangover]

1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Harry Greb
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Mickey Walker
8. Billy Papke
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. GGG

Just out of interest, why do you rate Stanley the best ever at 160? Also, Billy Papke?

Because I think he was the best middleweight ever.

[Tomasino]

1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Harry Greb
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Mickey Walker
8. Billy Papke
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. GGG

Just out of interest, why do you rate Stanley the best ever at 160? Also, Billy Papke?

Because I think he was the best middleweight ever.

What a shite answer Keith especially with the way you hound other posters on their opinions. I was hoping you could perhaps be insightful instead of childish.

[Keko]

Ketchel was my top 3,he was great MW !
For Fletceher is nr1 i think.

[Tomasino]

Ketchel was my top 3,he was great MW !
For Fletceher is nr1 i think.

I agree he was great, obviously abused himself and shortened his prime. He ducked Sam Langford. Since Keith had him no 1 I thought I'd enquire why. I shouldn't have bothered

[keithmoonhangover]

Just out of interest, why do you rate Stanley the best ever at 160? Also, Billy Papke?

Because I think he was the best middleweight ever.

What a shite answer Keith especially with the way you hound other posters on their opinions. I was hoping you could perhaps be insightful instead of childish.

I was at work when I answered. I wasn't being childish, just brief. It actually is my reason. I think he's the best ever. I think he would beat everyone else on the list. Is that a good enough answer or do you want more?

[Tomasino]

Because I think he was the best middleweight ever.

What a shite answer Keith especially with the way you hound other posters on their opinions. I was hoping you could perhaps be insightful instead of childish.

I was at work when I answered. I wasn't being childish, just brief. It actually is my reason. I think he's the best ever. I think he would beat everyone else on the list. Is that a good enough answer or do you want more?

Your first answer is just like saying 'because'

At least I now know your criteria for rating fighters is H2H so thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

Have you read about the Sam Langford fiasco?

[dr_devious]

I thought Langford and Ketchel fought once and it was a newspaper draw with many onlookers believing Langford had won. What else happened?

[Seamus]

http://www.boxing.com/did_langford_real ... fight.html

[Tomasino]

BTW... the guys who beat Robinson would probably be just as fearful of GGG as the top Middleweights today are... He's a pretty scary dude.

Yeh Basillio and LaMotta were well known for ducking and cherry picking opponents

[Tomasino]

I thought Langford and Ketchel fought once and it was a newspaper draw with many onlookers believing Langford had won. What else happened?

Langford wanted no part of the pre arranged 'draw' exhibition over 6 rounds. He wanted and deserved a straight title shot. He had to carry Ketchel in the 6 rounder so he could get his promised title shot, which of course never happened.

[dr_devious]

I thought Langford and Ketchel fought once and it was a newspaper draw with many onlookers believing Langford had won. What else happened?

Langford wanted no part of the pre arranged 'draw' exhibition over 6 rounds. He wanted and deserved a straight title shot. He had to carry Ketchel in the 6 rounder so he could get his promised title shot, which of course never happened.

Thanks for the info. Langford was some kind of superhuman, scandalous how he and other black fighters in those days were treated

[Keko]

Langford is certainly one of the best of all time and that would just be that he would get a chance for the title and that he had the opportunity to fight against some great boxer!

Ketchel is definitely the top mw and had an excellent wins and career regardless of the story with Langford.

[Seamus]

The claim that Langford carried Ketchel is speculation, and based upon the most detailed accounts of the fight it's most likely inaccurate. It's one thing to suggest that in a title fight between the two that Langford would be the clear favorite, but it's utter nonsense to believe Langford could take Ketchel out any time he wanted.

[davie]

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

Out of interest, there are 3 books on Greb, all got good ratings and all quite expensive.

The Fearless Harry Greb: Biography of a Tragic Hero of Boxing
by Bill Paxton

Live Fast, Die Young the Life and Times of Harry Greb
by Stephen Compton

Give Him to the Angels: Story of Harry Greb
by James Fair and Geoff Thompson

I know Klompton was on here and there was a silly row over his book,

But to anyone who has read these books, If I were to purchase one, which would it be?

[Tomasino]

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

Out of interest, there are 3 books on Greb, all got good ratings and all quite expensive.

The Fearless Harry Greb: Biography of a Tragic Hero of Boxing
by Bill Paxton

Live Fast, Die Young the Life and Times of Harry Greb
by Stephen Compton

Give Him to the Angels: Story of Harry Greb
by James Fair and Geoff Thompson

I know Klompton was on here and there was a silly row over his book,

But to anyone who has read these books, If I were to purchase one, which would it be?

Klomptons, without a doubt. I've got the other ones too and I think after reading I swapped them

[davie]

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

Out of interest, there are 3 books on Greb, all got good ratings and all quite expensive.

The Fearless Harry Greb: Biography of a Tragic Hero of Boxing
by Bill Paxton

Live Fast, Die Young the Life and Times of Harry Greb
by Stephen Compton

Give Him to the Angels: Story of Harry Greb
by James Fair and Geoff Thompson

I know Klompton was on here and there was a silly row over his book,

But to anyone who has read these books, If I were to purchase one, which would it be?

Klomptons, without a doubt. I've got the other ones too and I think after reading I swapped them

I'll get that one then.

I was going to get one on Greb plus:
the killings of Stanley Ketchel, by James Carlos Blake
Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson, by Geoffrey Ward
Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion by Clay Moyle.
Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row by Harry Otty

Anyone read these? Are there any better for these fighter?

[Tomasino]

Out of interest, there are 3 books on Greb, all got good ratings and all quite expensive.

The Fearless Harry Greb: Biography of a Tragic Hero of Boxing
by Bill Paxton

Live Fast, Die Young the Life and Times of Harry Greb
by Stephen Compton

Give Him to the Angels: Story of Harry Greb
by James Fair and Geoff Thompson

I know Klompton was on here and there was a silly row over his book,

But to anyone who has read these books, If I were to purchase one, which would it be?

Klomptons, without a doubt. I've got the other ones too and I think after reading I swapped them

I'll get that one then.

I was going to get one on Greb plus:
the killings of Stanley Ketchel, by James Carlos Blake
Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson, by Geoffrey Ward
Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion by Clay Moyle.
Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row by Harry Otty

Anyone read these? Are there any better for these fighter?

I've read them all, Clay Moyles books one of my favourites

[davie]

Klomptons, without a doubt. I've got the other ones too and I think after reading I swapped them

I'll get that one then.

I was going to get one on Greb plus:
the killings of Stanley Ketchel, by James Carlos Blake
Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson, by Geoffrey Ward
Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion by Clay Moyle.
Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row by Harry Otty

Anyone read these? Are there any better for these fighter?

I've read them all, Clay Moyles books one of my favourites

They were sitting in my Amazon basket.
Your nod was all I needed to confirm the order.
I'll report back with my thoughts

Anyway, we can let this thread get back on topic now

[keithmoonhangover]

What a shite answer Keith especially with the way you hound other posters on their opinions. I was hoping you could perhaps be insightful instead of childish.

I was at work when I answered. I wasn't being childish, just brief. It actually is my reason. I think he's the best ever. I think he would beat everyone else on the list. Is that a good enough answer or do you want more?

Your first answer is just like saying 'because'

At least I now know your criteria for rating fighters is H2H so thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

Have you read about the Sam Langford fiasco?

What do you want me to say? I'm not trying to be funny or anything. Why did you vote for your #1?

I've read a few different versions of the Langford fight. One thing is for sure, Ketchel didn't mind fighting black guys. Stanley and Jack were on good terms and so were he and Langford.

Ketchel was in terrible physical condition when he fought Langford and it wasn't his best performance, but they had both agreed to the fight in order to sell a title fight down the line. After his next three outings, Stanley went to R.P. Dickerson's place in order to recover from years of booze, opium and prostitutes and the rest is history.

[Ezzard]

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Robinson
4. Hagler
5. Ketchel
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Walker
8. Flowers
9. Burley
10. Tiger

[Kalan]

Kalan. How does Toney beat Robinson when he can't beat Tiberi?

The record book says Toney beat Tiberi.. JT broke his ankle in the 1st round and still won somehow.. He ended Tiberi's career.. Robinson lost to Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, Carmen Basilio, Ralph Jones, and Joey Maxim... Do you see any of them beating Toney??? He destroys all those crude swingers and flailers without even trying... Maxim could box a little bit, but wasn't in the same class as Toney as a craftsman.. And Joey was so slow and punchless he'd be a 10-1 underdog versus Toney.. Maxim had a 19% KO ratio.. He couldn't beat Jirov.

The record book, as you know, is wrong. Do I see any of those fighters beating Toney? At middleweight, Toney was beaten my Tiberi, ran very close by Reggie Johnson and lost almost every round to Nunn before the stoppage.

A simple question for you. Just give me a yes or no answer.

Did Robinson ever lose to anyone as poor as Tiberi?

Damned right he did ... Tiberi was very good that night and Toney never lost a Middleweight Title Fight.. JT's first loss was to Roy Jones in his 47th fight.. Jones would have destroyed Robinson with his speed and elusiveness.. Robinson was too easy to hit and lost to Ralph Jones who was coming off 5 straight losses.. He refused a rematch.. Did Robinson ever beat a Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, Cruiserweight, or Heavyweight??? Toney beat plenty of them -- Robinson was 0-1 against guys 168 or heavier. SRR was very slender and hittable compared to Toney, and that's why he had such a hard time at Middleweight. SRR was 3-3 in Middleweight Title Defenses while James Toney was undefeated in 6 Middleweight Title Defenses - one of the better records ever... Robinson never fought a Middleweight the caliber of Michael Nunn, Reggie Johnson, or Mike McCallum.