Is Wladimir Klitschko a top ten ATG heavyweight?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What people who focus on athletic improvement seem to neglect is that boxing is skills-based, and those skills are better the more they are practised.

Imagine today's golfers, with all their brilliant modern nutrition, if they only got to two tournaments a year.

Would they be better golfers, skill wise, if they were
actually plying their skills much less often than their forebears?

Is modern 'nutrition' so great that it makes up for the fact that modern fighters actually fight/prepare for so many fewer fights than they used to? (And spend a good deal of that preparation time focusing on things other than boxing skill anyway)

not to mention that great modern nutrition has very little to do with starving yourself to make weight. Not that older fighters wouldn't love to make the money today's inferior, pampered stars make with much less effort. Imagine if Jim Palmer was born in 1980? He'd get many extra days off and throw a ton less pitches. Somehow brilliant modern training and nutrition have left pitchers unable to pitch as often or as long and much more prone to injury.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You're obviously a clever chap, man. But, interesting as that is, doesn't that prove my point.

well, maybe i misunderstood your point.
i for one think muhammad ali would be
very, very competitive today.

Of course. He'd be so good if born in the 80s, it would be ridiculous. That is my point.

Your point is laughable and stupid. You're right to bounce.

[Kalan]

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

Notable exceptions

Dempsey, Langford

K2, particularly Wlad have longevity over a lot of these. But you should judge fighters time for time, and simply there better fighters from the past imo.

Note the top 2 are widely accepted as the best, 3-10 could be a number in a variety of order. No major concerns if people place different this was done fairly quick

Nobody from the Marciano era would be champion today...Those guys were too little and teeny... Louis was a Cruiserweight... Ali was too easy to hit. Even the inept 185-pound bleeder (Cooper) who gave up 22 pounds almost knocked Ali out... Johnson won the Heavyweight Title from a Middleweight (168)... Foreman squashed a bloated bowling ball to win the title... Holmes fought in a great era, but Larry couldn't handle overhand rights... Lewis was beaten on all scorecards by Vitali and was twice KO'd by unlikely cherry-picks... The rest of the above list are Cruiserweights or smaller.

So Wladimir ranks up there near the top... Behind 1. Anthony Joshua.. 2. Vitali Klitschko.. 3. It's gotta be Wladimir Klitschko because Luis Ortiz hasn't won a Heavyweight Championship yet.

[Counter-puncher]

Modern heavyweights with all their "advanced training methods" and "knowledge" (lol) seem often to be less fit than heavyweights of a few decades ago. Joshua is an incredibly looking specimen but in the WK fight was fucked after 6 rounds and had to take a round or two off to recuperate. Which modern heavies could have survived the pace of the Thrilla, for example? Could it be that vitamin supplements and protein shakes aren't as useful as regular competition? *shock horror*

Regarding size, how many of the 'big' heavies have actually been any good? Lennox, Bowe, WK and VK, maybe one or two others. Joe Louis fought and beat big heavies who weren't very good, so why couldn't he beat big heavies of today who also aren't very good? Size is of course a factor but it certainly isn't the be all and end all.

Finally, I don't agree with the argument that boxers must be getting better because athletes in other sports are. The way different sports change and develop over the years (or don't) makes direct comparison irrelevant.

solid post, albeit one which has a depressingly small audience of willing ears to listen

[RScarf1]

Modern heavyweights with all their "advanced training methods" and "knowledge" (lol) seem often to be less fit than heavyweights of a few decades ago. Joshua is an incredibly looking specimen but in the WK fight was fucked after 6 rounds and had to take a round or two off to recuperate. Which modern heavies could have survived the pace of the Thrilla, for example? Could it be that vitamin supplements and protein shakes aren't as useful as regular competition? *shock horror*

Regarding size, how many of the 'big' heavies have actually been any good? Lennox, Bowe, WK and VK, maybe one or two others. Joe Louis fought and beat big heavies who weren't very good, so why couldn't he beat big heavies of today who also aren't very good? Size is of course a factor but it certainly isn't the be all and end all.

Finally, I don't agree with the argument that boxers must be getting better because athletes in other sports are. The way different sports change and develop over the years (or don't) makes direct comparison irrelevant.

solid post, albeit one which has a depressingly small audience of willing ears to listen

Also, Holyfield was formerly a cruiserweight and had to become a heavyweight, so he was smaller than some of the guys he fought such as Bowe, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes, Douglas, and Valuev. He did have losses to Bowe and Lewis, but they were in their prime and Hall of Famers.

[Loki]

well, maybe i misunderstood your point.
i for one think muhammad ali would be
very, very competitive today.

Of course. He'd be so good if born in the 80s, it would be ridiculous. That is my point.

Your point is laughable and stupid. You're right to bounce.

Really. Have you any more crap to dish out on the Klitschkos or are you full of that humble pie?

I'll leave it there and of course, your are entitled to you opinion.

[Ossyrules]

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

Notable exceptions

Dempsey, Langford

K2, particularly Wlad have longevity over a lot of these. But you should judge fighters time for time, and simply there better fighters from the past imo.

Note the top 2 are widely accepted as the best, 3-10 could be a number in a variety of order. No major concerns if people place different this was done fairly quick

Nobody from the Marciano era would be champion today...Those guys were too little and teeny... Louis was a Cruiserweight... Ali was too easy to hit. Even the inept 185-pound bleeder (Cooper) who gave up 22 pounds almost knocked Ali out... Johnson won the Heavyweight Title from a Middleweight (168)... Foreman squashed a bloated bowling ball to win the title... Holmes fought in a great era, but Larry couldn't handle overhand rights... Lewis was beaten on all scorecards by Vitali and was twice KO'd by unlikely cherry-picks... The rest of the above list are Cruiserweights or smaller.

So Wladimir ranks up there near the top... Behind 1. Anthony Joshua.. 2. Vitali Klitschko.. 3. It's gotta be Wladimir Klitschko because Luis Ortiz hasn't won a Heavyweight Championship yet.

You're literally one post away from being taken into the mental health hospital.

There's a lot of crazy stuff posted on boxrec but you my friend have just secured your legacy

[Loki]

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

Notable exceptions

Dempsey, Langford

K2, particularly Wlad have longevity over a lot of these. But you should judge fighters time for time, and simply there better fighters from the past imo.

Note the top 2 are widely accepted as the best, 3-10 could be a number in a variety of order. No major concerns if people place different this was done fairly quick

Nobody from the Marciano era would be champion today...Those guys were too little and teeny... Louis was a Cruiserweight... Ali was too easy to hit. Even the inept 185-pound bleeder (Cooper) who gave up 22 pounds almost knocked Ali out... Johnson won the Heavyweight Title from a Middleweight (168)... Foreman squashed a bloated bowling ball to win the title... Holmes fought in a great era, but Larry couldn't handle overhand rights... Lewis was beaten on all scorecards by Vitali and was twice KO'd by unlikely cherry-picks... The rest of the above list are Cruiserweights or smaller.

So Wladimir ranks up there near the top... Behind 1. Anthony Joshua.. 2. Vitali Klitschko.. 3. It's gotta be Wladimir Klitschko because Luis Ortiz hasn't won a Heavyweight Championship yet.

You're literally one post away from being taken into the mental health hospital.

There's a lot of crazy stuff posted on boxrec but you my friend have just secured your legacy

This is pretty awful on both counts. The top 10 list, nobody should have Tyson above Holyfield. I'm pretty sure IMO, Lewis would be ahead of Foreman. As I've previously said, it's impossible to compare eras, it's a different sport from the Johnson and even 70s to what it is now. The top 4 aren't bad though.

I'm a big Klitschko fan, but to say they've achieved more than Ali or Louis at HW is idiocy. Having AJ at 1? Just fcuk off. Vitali doesn't make the top 10, he was better than his brother and had he of beaten Lewis in a rematch, possibly. But, his competition just wasn't good enough.

[Ossyrules]

Nobody from the Marciano era would be champion today...Those guys were too little and teeny... Louis was a Cruiserweight... Ali was too easy to hit. Even the inept 185-pound bleeder (Cooper) who gave up 22 pounds almost knocked Ali out... Johnson won the Heavyweight Title from a Middleweight (168)... Foreman squashed a bloated bowling ball to win the title... Holmes fought in a great era, but Larry couldn't handle overhand rights... Lewis was beaten on all scorecards by Vitali and was twice KO'd by unlikely cherry-picks... The rest of the above list are Cruiserweights or smaller.

So Wladimir ranks up there near the top... Behind 1. Anthony Joshua.. 2. Vitali Klitschko.. 3. It's gotta be Wladimir Klitschko because Luis Ortiz hasn't won a Heavyweight Championship yet.

You're literally one post away from being taken into the mental health hospital.

There's a lot of crazy stuff posted on boxrec but you my friend have just secured your legacy

This is pretty awful on both counts. The top 10 list, nobody should have Tyson above Holyfield. I'm pretty sure IMO, Lewis would be ahead of Foreman. As I've previously said, it's impossible to compare eras, it's a different sport from the Johnson and even 70s to what it is now. The top 4 aren't bad though.

I'm a big Klitschko fan, but to say they've achieved more than Ali or Louis at HW is idiocy. Having AJ at 1? Just fcuk off. Vitali doesn't make the top 10, he was better than his brother and had he of beaten Lewis in a rematch, possibly. But, his competition just wasn't good enough.

No issues with those who plant holy above as per the original post

[Counter-puncher]

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

Notable exceptions

Dempsey, Langford

K2, particularly Wlad have longevity over a lot of these. But you should judge fighters time for time, and simply there better fighters from the past imo.

Note the top 2 are widely accepted as the best, 3-10 could be a number in a variety of order. No major concerns if people place different this was done fairly quick

Nobody from the Marciano era would be champion today...Those guys were too little and teeny... Louis was a Cruiserweight... Ali was too easy to hit. Even the inept 185-pound bleeder (Cooper) who gave up 22 pounds almost knocked Ali out... Johnson won the Heavyweight Title from a Middleweight (168)... Foreman squashed a bloated bowling ball to win the title... Holmes fought in a great era, but Larry couldn't handle overhand rights... Lewis was beaten on all scorecards by Vitali and was twice KO'd by unlikely cherry-picks... The rest of the above list are Cruiserweights or smaller.

So Wladimir ranks up there near the top... Behind 1. Anthony Joshua.. 2. Vitali Klitschko.. 3. It's gotta be Wladimir Klitschko because Luis Ortiz hasn't won a Heavyweight Championship yet.

You're literally one post away from being taken into the mental health hospital.

There's a lot of crazy stuff posted on boxrec but you my friend have just secured your legacy

#legacy

[verlichte]

Joe Louis fought and beat big heavies who weren't very good, so why couldn't he beat big heavies of today who also aren't very good?

I’m confused by the this statement, what are you trying to say?

The average weight of a Joe Louis opponent was 193lbs, which is very small for a cruiserweight. It was very rare for ‘The Brown Bomber’ to face an opponent that weighed more than 210lbs. To put this into numbers, 90% of the bouts he competed in (62 of 69 fights) were against opposition that weighed less than or equal to 210lbs.

Those fighters competing in the 200lbs division nowadays will rehydrate to 215lbs to 220lbs after the official weigh-in.

Tony Bellew walks around weighing 236lbs.

The only truly “big men” that Joe Louis faced, who were comparable in size to the likes of Anthony Joshua and Wladimir Klitschko, were Abe Simon, Buddy Baer & Primo Carnera… and ‘The Ambling Alp’ was the only opponent from that trio that didn’t possess a losing record.

[verlichte]

Tony Bellew walks around weighing 236lbs.

He went on the scales as part of his duties for Sky Sports Box Office on the day of the Klitschko-Joshua official weigh-in. It was filmed and televised loads of times by Sky Sports News... and to be fair, he looked pretty trim at that weight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Of course. He'd be so good if born in the 80s, it would be ridiculous. That is my point.

Your point is laughable and stupid. You're right to bounce.

Really. Have you any more crap to dish out on the Klitschkos or are you full of that humble pie?

I'll leave it there and of course, your are entitled to you opinion.

Ok, you leave it there.

[Butterbean]

of course. both he and his brother. dominating the heavyweight div. for more than a decade, taking on everybody who dared. Hands down. top 5 imo.
they both did it in style and the sport of boxing owes them for this.
could they have beaten ali, foreman etc. meh..., we´ll never know and have no way of making reliable assesment of that, hence that should not be a parametre for measurement !

[Counter-puncher]

Tony Bellew walks around weighing 236lbs.

.