BoxRec

ewenhay wrote: ↑18 Nov 2017, 17:24

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 09:39

golden oldie wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 17:06

He LOST to Duran too at his favoured weight, in his absolute prime. It never ceases to amaze me how Hearns is judged severely for losing to Leonard but Leonard's defeat to the naturally smaller Duran gets a pass.

Hearns isn't severely judged. He's still looked at as one of the best welters of all time and a dangerous fighter for nearly everyone around his weight.

I thought Hearns was best at Light middleweight.

Interesting that although they all fought each other they were probably at their best at different weights.

Duran, lightweight
Leonard, welterweight
Hearns, light middleweight
Hagler, middleweight

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Nov 2017, 08:07

Kalan wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 21:36 You're full of it Old-n-Moldie... Duran didn't try to street fight anybody before or after the fight was called.. He quit the fight cold.

The referee tried very hard twice to get Duran to square up and fight after he quit.. I would have done the same.. The ref couldn't believe Duran was quitting.. Ray Leonard couldn't believe he was quitting.. Because it's hard to believe anybody would quit such a close, bitterly contentious, and extremely important World Title Fight -- especially the 72-1 Duran... WHY??? ... But Duran finally convinced the ref he quit.

4.34 onwards.

https://youtu.be/HZGbERQLc_A?t=305

And why the hell would anyone claim Duran was a great Welter? Even Boxrec has him listed as a Lightweight, at which he was without doubt " great " However also without doubt he BEAT a so called great Welter in Leonard. Subsequent rematches don't mean shite. He came up from Lightweight and beat what was considered to be the top guy in the division at the time. No amount of squirming, and whinging from Leonard fans can alter that fact.

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:18

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 18:54

golden oldie wrote: ↑18 Nov 2017, 08:07

4.34 onwards.

https://youtu.be/HZGbERQLc_A?t=305

And why the hell would anyone claim Duran was a great Welter? Even Boxrec has him listed as a Lightweight, at which he was without doubt " great " However also without doubt he BEAT a so called great Welter in Leonard. Subsequent rematches don't mean shite. He came up from Lightweight and beat what was considered to be the top guy in the division at the time. No amount of squirming, and whinging from Leonard fans can alter that fact.

Just because someone had a best weight doesn't mean they weren't great at other weights also. 130 was likely Mayweather's best weight but his resume at 147 is probably better than most career welterweights.

What you are talking about is probably p4p, and to be honest I don't much give a shite.

However, Duran is without a doubt between 1 and 2 of the best Lightweights EVER, no matter who is doing the rating. That is why he is listed as a Lightweight on this forum.

If Leonard fanboys want to argue he is in the top 2 Welters who EVER lived, well that is their right to make themselves look like Britanny Spears fans.

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:34

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑18 Nov 2017, 14:04

golden oldie wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 20:42


He stopped, Benitez. He stopped, Tommy Hearns.

HE LOST TO THE LIGHTWEIGHT DURAN.

NOW for the benefit of Leonard fanboys.

REMATCH, AFTER LOOOOOOSSIIIINGGGG.

Duran, turned and walked away from the dancing. Leonard,,,,,, seeing the natural muggers opportunity, hit Duran in the BACK of his head and body. Duran then turns back and wants to street fight the mugger. By this time it is called off.

And lets not forget even Benitez NEVER started out his career as a full blown Welter like the wife beating coke snorting ALL AMERICAN HERO DID.

Oh, and PLEASE do not kid your selves. Crooked judges and promoters aside. If the lowlife Leonard, hit Hagler as hard as he could with a baseball bat, NOTHING would happen, other than Marvin would keep walking forwards, and Leonard would look for the kind of crooks that protected him all of his life for their percentage.

I think he would have been known in the 60's as an Uncle Tom. Without a doubt, a guy who sold out to the WHITE establishment, less than 10 years after the race riots.

You said he was lucky in his fight. I gave you three greats he beat without luck and you mention the one fight he lost. Even though I thought Hagler edged it, he has no one to blame for that loss but himself.

So how was Leonard lucky again?

Pardon????????

Which were the 3 great Welters he beat, again?

Benitez????????? Do you perhaps mean the Super LIGHTWEIGHT title holder???


Duran?????

You mean the LIGHTWEIGHT LEGEND????????


Tommy Hearns?????

Yeah, OK, even though Tommy was severely weight drained I'll give you that.

Mythical elevation????

Marvin???????????

Your own opinion should suffice there.

Leonard has become much like the British Queen Mother. The legend has over taken the reality.

Ossyrules wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 19:08

ClivePatrickLyons wrote: ↑14 Nov 2017, 20:56 I am 47 years old so since say about 1980 Leonard is probably THE BEST FIGHTER I HAVE EVER SEEN IN 37 YEAR'S OR SO
THE MAN WAS A FREAK SPEED/POWER/FOOTWORK/CHIN/BALANCE AND THEM COMBO'S ANYONE THAT COULD HAVE THAT LONG LAY OFF AND COME BACK AND BEAT THE ALMOST UNBEATABLE HAGLER WAS SOMETHING ELSE AND HE IN MY HONEST OPINION OUT-BOXED OUT-FOUGHT OUT-SMARTED AND OUT-GRITTED THE MARVELOUS ONE WITH OUT A SHADOW OF DOUBT AND THAT SECOND HEARNS FIGHT WAS RAZOR THIN CLOSE THE 2 KNOCK DOWN'S PROBABLEY SHOULD HAVE GOT THE WIN FOR TOMMY BUT SRL DID FIGHT HIS WAY RIGHT BACK INTO THAT FIGHT IT WAS MORE OF TOMMY LETTING THE FIGHT SLIP THEN A ROBBERY THE OTHER 2 FIGHT'S MENTIONED WAS WHEN SRL WAS NO WHERE NEAR HIS BEST............

Take caps off please clive

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:47

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:27

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:18

What you are talking about is probably p4p, and to be honest I don't much give a shite.

However, Duran is without a doubt between 1 and 2 of the best Lightweights EVER, no matter who is doing the rating. That is why he is listed as a Lightweight on this forum.

If Leonard fanboys want to argue he is in the top 2 Welters who EVER lived, well that is their right to make themselves look like Britanny Spears fans.

Duran at welterweight is still tough to beat just like Mayweather at 147. Yes the weight plays a part but it's not like 12lbs zapped all of this skill and toughness away from him.

WRONG.

Duran was tough to beat ( unless you were Tommy Hearns ) at any weight, because he was a tough guy. Hagler couldn't knock him over, or out, Leonard couldn't even knock him over, in 3 attempts, neither could the 6' 1" Barkley who went on to win some Heavyweight strap.

Who we are talking about here is a 5' 7" guy with a 66" reach. The guy was a NATURAL Lightweight, nothing more, and nothing less. And maggots are so keen to suck Leonards genitals, they use Duran as some kind of yard stick????????? Don't make me laugh.

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 20:44

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 20:28

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:47

WRONG.

Duran was tough to beat ( unless you were Tommy Hearns ) at any weight, because he was a tough guy. Hagler couldn't knock him over, or out, Leonard couldn't even knock him over, in 3 attempts, neither could the 6' 1" Barkley who went on to win some Heavyweight strap.

Who we are talking about here is a 5' 7" guy with a 66" reach. The guy was a NATURAL Lightweight, nothing more, and nothing less. And maggots are so keen to suck Leonards genitals, they use Duran as some kind of yard stick????????? Don't make me laugh.

Jake Lamotta was a 5'8 middleweight with a 67" reach. Marciano was 5'10 HW with 68" reach. Mike Tyson was 5'10 HW with a 71" reach. So what?

Do you live on the planet Zogg?????

Duran made his debut at 119 lbs. Now go and look up the debut weights of the numpties you listed and your hero Leonard. Then come back again with your STUPID " so what " reply.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 21:24

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 20:44

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 20:28


Jake Lamotta was a 5'8 middleweight with a 67" reach. Marciano was 5'10 HW with 68" reach. Mike Tyson was 5'10 HW with a 71" reach. So what?

Do you live on the planet Zogg?????

Duran made his debut at 119 lbs. Now go and look up the debut weights of the numpties you listed and your hero Leonard. Then come back again with your STUPID " so what " reply.

Duran was also 16 years old. Leonard at 16 was a 126lb amateur. Mayweather at 16 was a flyweight amateur. Pacquaio turned pro at 112lbs. I guess we shouldn't credit anyone who beat them above 130. Canelo was 140 when he turned pro. So what?

golden oldie wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 15:41

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 21:24

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 20:44


Do you live on the planet Zogg?????

Duran made his debut at 119 lbs. Now go and look up the debut weights of the numpties you listed and your hero Leonard. Then come back again with your STUPID " so what " reply.

Duran was also 16 years old. Leonard at 16 was a 126lb amateur. Mayweather at 16 was a flyweight amateur. Pacquaio turned pro at 112lbs. I guess we shouldn't credit anyone who beat them above 130. Canelo was 140 when he turned pro. So what?

Leonard made his debut aged 20 at 141lbs, by the time he was 22 he was a full blown Welter.

Duran at the age of 20 was fighting at 134, and at the age of 22 he was defending his Lightweight title at 133.

Any more pointless " so what's? "

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 17:28 Fighters are generally less effective when they move up to fight naturally larger men at their optimal weights. Generally losses at weights well above where they started are viewed differently than losses at their best weights. Duran is not physically very imposing at welterweight and his major disadvantages in height and reach could make things considerably more difficult for him.

Ossyrules wrote: ↑12 Nov 2017, 06:22

Kalan wrote: ↑11 Nov 2017, 17:55 Leonard never met anyone like Spence, Thurman, Brook, Napoles, Griffith, Walker, Trinidad, Robinson, or Forrest.. They would pepper Ray up with punches like Hearns did -- and they didn't have the weak and super skinny bod or soft chin to bail Ray out late in the fight.

The much smaller Duran beat Leonard when he was at his best... He handed Ray the rematch for free -- and was an old man in their 3rd match.

But I think Leonard could actually beat Robinson -- because Tommy Bell decked Robbie really hard and almost beat him... He wasn't real good.

None of them guys were around when Leonard fought FYI kalan

golden oldie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2017, 18:06

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 18:12

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 17:28 Fighters are generally less effective when they move up to fight naturally larger men at their optimal weights. Generally losses at weights well above where they started are viewed differently than losses at their best weights. Duran is not physically very imposing at welterweight and his major disadvantages in height and reach could make things considerably more difficult for him.

Roberto Duran: considered not imposing
5'7" reach, 66"

Miguel Cotto: Considered a big welter at 147
5'7 reach 67

Keith Thurman: Considered a sized welter
5'7 1/2 reach, 69

Shawn Porter: Considered a sized welter
5'7, reach 69

Really those guys only have 3" reach on him if that. It's not that Duran was a small welter, Leonard was just a bigger welter than he's given credit for.

Emille Griffiths 5' 8" reach 72

Curtis Cokes 5' 8" reach 73

Jose Napoles 5' 8" reach72

John H Stracey 5' 8" reach 70

Carlos Palomino 5' 9" reach 70

Wilfred Benitez 5' 10" reach 70

Ray Leonard 5' 10" reach 74

Duran 5' 7" reach 66

Milton McCrory 6' 0" reach 75

Donald Curry 5' 10 reach 72

Lloyd Honeyghan 5' 8" reach 69

Jorge Vaca 5' 11" reach 73

Marlon Starling 5' 8" reach 73

Maurice Blocker 6' 2" reach 74

Simon Brown 5' 10" reach 71

Buddy McGirt 5' 7" reach 70

Pernell Whitaker 5' 6"" reach 69

Oscar De LaHoya 5' 11" reach 73

Felix Trinidad 5' 11" reach 72

Shane Mosley 5' 8" reach 71

Vernon Forrest 6' 0" reach 73

Ricardo Mayorga 5' 9" reach 69



It is becoming too easy now. Do you still wan't to claim Duran or Whitaker weren't small Welterweights?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 17:28 Fighters are generally less effective when they move up to fight naturally larger men at their optimal weights. Generally losses at weights well above where they started are viewed differently than losses at their best weights. Duran is not physically very imposing at welterweight and his major disadvantages in height and reach could make things considerably more difficult for him.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Nov 2017, 20:58

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 17:28 Fighters are generally less effective when they move up to fight naturally larger men at their optimal weights. Generally losses at weights well above where they started are viewed differently than losses at their best weights. Duran is not physically very imposing at welterweight and his major disadvantages in height and reach could make things considerably more difficult for him.

Fighters rountinley move up in weight and are just as good or better. Going from lightweight to welterweight over a period of several years is not a big deal at all.

Love how it's a big deal for Duran to move up but somehow it's not for Leonard. Benitez and Hearns did as well. Scores of others did as well. Height and reach can actually be a disadvantage fighting inside where Duran wanted to be anyway. Always a crybaby excuse for Duran.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 09:38

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Nov 2017, 20:58

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑20 Nov 2017, 17:28 Fighters are generally less effective when they move up to fight naturally larger men at their optimal weights. Generally losses at weights well above where they started are viewed differently than losses at their best weights. Duran is not physically very imposing at welterweight and his major disadvantages in height and reach could make things considerably more difficult for him.

Fighters rountinley move up in weight and are just as good or better. Going from lightweight to welterweight over a period of several years is not a big deal at all.

Love how it's a big deal for Duran to move up but somehow it's not for Leonard. Benitez and Hearns did as well. Scores of others did as well. Height and reach can actually be a disadvantage fighting inside where Duran wanted to be anyway. Always a crybaby excuse for Duran.

That's a lie. Fighters are not as good or better moving up in weight. If that's the case, lots of middleweight greats would have been light heavyweight champions. Light heavyweight s would have been heavyweight champions. Only about 4 or 5 fighters have become welterweight champions when they were lightweight champions. You could count it with your own fingers.

It's a big deal for all fighters going up in weight to challenge the champions of the bigger classes. That is not an easy thing to do. If it was then, we should have more triple crown champions and light heavyweight champions becoming heavyweight champions like if is isn't a big deal.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 10:09

elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 09:38

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Nov 2017, 20:58

Fighters rountinley move up in weight and are just as good or better. Going from lightweight to welterweight over a period of several years is not a big deal at all.

Love how it's a big deal for Duran to move up but somehow it's not for Leonard. Benitez and Hearns did as well. Scores of others did as well. Height and reach can actually be a disadvantage fighting inside where Duran wanted to be anyway. Always a crybaby excuse for Duran.

That's a lie. Fighters are not as good or better moving up in weight. If that's the case, lots of middleweight greats would have been light heavyweight champions. Light heavyweight s would have been heavyweight champions. Only about 4 or 5 fighters have become welterweight champions when they were lightweight champions. You could count it with your own fingers.

It's a big deal for all fighters going up in weight to challenge the champions of the bigger classes. That is not an easy thing to do. If it was then, we should have more triple crown champions and light heavyweight champions becoming heavyweight champions like if is isn't a big deal.

Like Roy Jones, Miguel Cotto, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya, James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 11:57 A lie...wow.
A while back, we compiled a list of champion who moved up in weight and were as good or better when they moved up. We got over 100 names.

Besides what IKSRTKO already mentioned:
Armstrong, Ross, and Mosley also won titles at lightweight and welterweight.
Ryan, Griifith, Walker, Leonard, and Hearns also won the welterweight and middleweight titles.
Fitzsimmons, Tiger, and McCallum also won the middleweight title and light heavyweight titles.

Heavyweight is not as many because it is a bigger jump in weight. Even so, Spinks, and Jones won the light heavyweight title and heavyweight title.
Charles and Tunney never got a shot at the light heavyweight title but were light heavyweights for several years. Both won the heavyweight title. Moorer won the WBO light heavyweight title and the heavyweight title.

I'm sure there are many examples, I am just naming them off the top of my head.

It is the height of elmer logic to make a huge deal of Duran winning the light weight and welterweight titles, but ignore Leonard winning the welterweight and middle weight titles.

At the lower weights especially, it is normal to move up in weight. It is the rule, not the exception. It's no big deal.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 15:51

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 10:09

elmersalsa wrote: ↑22 Nov 2017, 09:38

That's a lie. Fighters are not as good or better moving up in weight. If that's the case, lots of middleweight greats would have been light heavyweight champions. Light heavyweight s would have been heavyweight champions. Only about 4 or 5 fighters have become welterweight champions when they were lightweight champions. You could count it with your own fingers.

It's a big deal for all fighters going up in weight to challenge the champions of the bigger classes. That is not an easy thing to do. If it was then, we should have more triple crown champions and light heavyweight champions becoming heavyweight champions like if is isn't a big deal.

Like Roy Jones, Miguel Cotto, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya, James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins?

You can count them with your own fingers, right? Why the other 50 champions challenging in bigger weight classes aren't successful? If that's the case then, it should have parity.