Who has the best Ring intelligence in boxing history?

[APerno]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

[oogiebe]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

[Kalan]

Don't use hate language like "bum"

You use derogatory terms about fighters all the time, you filthy hypocrite

Thank you Counter-Puncher...but I think Kalan was joking about that considering the word was BUM.

It's not appropriate to call a undefeated boxer who Archie Moore wants to train and praises as a great prospect a bum... That's hatred directed at Too Tall Jones because he was a football player invading Boxing and partisans want to belittle him and anything that he accomplished or was likely to accomplish.

I'm not putting Jones out there as the best ever in ring intelligence... Mikey Garcia, Vasyl Lomachenko, Gene Tunney, Floyd Mayweather, and Anthony Joshua are better candidates for that... Too Tall was a great prospect when you consider he barely had any amateur fights and only had 2 pro fights when they matched him with a guy with a winning record in 31 fights who'd faced contenders - and Too Tall smashed him out in 41 seconds.. If he could do that without any skills - think of what he could have done once he learned the craft.. That is what the Boxing Establishment was afraid of..

Boxing is an extremely corrupt and manipulative sport.. It cheats a lot of people.. But many with their heads in the sand, or rammed up narrow, confined, dark spaces where the sun doesn't shine, act like there isn't any problems.

[oogiebe]

To the prior poster. Whatever...You are now on ignore.

[Kalan]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

The science gets sweeter because it has more generations of ring craft to build on... This is what Ali pointed out when he was champion, "Cars get better... building get taller... track stars run faster... farmers can plow, plant, and harvest faster... They make movies in technicolor... Everything's better, but boxers don't get any better? ... I think there'll be boxers in the future who are better and faster than even me!!"

Every once in a while Ali made sense... There's the cutting edge of Boxing Science and Lomochenko is pushing it... In another generation boxers will be better than 2018's editions because they'd have expanded knowledge to work with.

Benny Leonard shouldn't be confused with Ray Leonard... Benny Leonard was 22-10-1 when he lost to Tommy Houck who had 26 losses... In his previous fight to Houck Leonard beat Harry Ah Chung who had 1 win in 7 fights... In his next fight after Houck he beat Young Fitzsimmons who had 0 wins in 6 fights... His record was padded up really well.

[tiny_acres]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

The science gets sweeter because it has more generations of ring craft to build on... This is what Ali pointed out when he was champion, "Cars get better... building get taller... track stars run faster... farmers can plow, plant, and harvest faster... They make movies in technicolor... Everything's better, but boxers don't get any better? ... I think there'll be boxers in the future who are better and faster than even me!!"

I remember this quote.
Ali was right

[oogiebe]

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

The science gets sweeter because it has more generations of ring craft to build on... This is what Ali pointed out when he was champion, "Cars get better... building get taller... track stars run faster... farmers can plow, plant, and harvest faster... They make movies in technicolor... Everything's better, but boxers don't get any better? ... I think there'll be boxers in the future who are better and faster than even me!!"

I remember this quote.
Ali was right

Tiny - All memories get sweeter with time. It's a fool's dream. Of course athletes are getting bigger; stronger; faster as Ali alluded to. Thanks!

[tiny_acres]

The science gets sweeter because it has more generations of ring craft to build on... This is what Ali pointed out when he was champion, "Cars get better... building get taller... track stars run faster... farmers can plow, plant, and harvest faster... They make movies in technicolor... Everything's better, but boxers don't get any better? ... I think there'll be boxers in the future who are better and faster than even me!!"

I remember this quote.
Ali was right

Tiny - All memories get sweeter with time. It's a fool's dream. Of course athletes are getting bigger; stronger; faster as Ali alluded to. Thanks!

I've made this same argument for years.
There are exceptions to the rule. Some fighters could of and would of been competitive in any era. But they are few and far between

[APerno]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

I remembered a Leonard anecdote I read in one of the boxing magazines back in the '80s. Leonard use to 'touch' his opponents to throw off their timing. Never really understood the dynamics of it, just remember one old timer talking about the tactic..

[Controversial]

1 - Meneses 5-6-0.... If you have LITTLE or NO amateur experience, your first few opponents are generally throw away opponents making their debut or having 1 or 2 wins at the most... As you can see Meneses had 5 wins in 11 fights... Not an appropriate boxer for a pro debut vs somebody with almost ZERO experience... I suspect he was a ringer put in to beat Jones... He was allowed by the referee to get away with a massive foul -- hitting a sitting down Jones with a devastating head shot leaves me to believe he was a plant... However Jones upset the apple cart and beat him easy...

2- Holloman 1-15-2 Is an opponent Too Tall should have fought in his 1st fight... Made no sense after Meneses

He didn't beat Meneses easy, he won by a MD, a decision that was loudly booed. The ref also let Jones corner away with a massive foul, his cornermen ran into the ring and had to be pushed out, rubbing what was described as smelling salts under Jones nose. A rematch with Meneses was on the cards but Jones quit boxing soon after.

In regards to Holloman, do you know who his one win was against? You got it, Meneses. Even then it took Jones 6 rounds to stop him.

[Tony1244]

1 - Meneses 5-6-0.... If you have LITTLE or NO amateur experience, your first few opponents are generally throw away opponents making their debut or having 1 or 2 wins at the most... As you can see Meneses had 5 wins in 11 fights... Not an appropriate boxer for a pro debut vs somebody with almost ZERO experience... I suspect he was a ringer put in to beat Jones... He was allowed by the referee to get away with a massive foul -- hitting a sitting down Jones with a devastating head shot leaves me to believe he was a plant... However Jones upset the apple cart and beat him easy...

2- Holloman 1-15-2 Is an opponent Too Tall should have fought in his 1st fight... Made no sense after Meneses

He didn't beat Meneses easy, he won by a MD, a decision that was loudly booed. The ref also let Jones corner away with a massive foul, his cornermen ran into the ring and had to be pushed out, rubbing what was described as smelling salts under Jones nose. A rematch with Meneses was on the cards but Jones quit boxing soon after.

In regards to Holloman, do you know who his one win was against? You got it, Meneses. Even then it took Jones 6 rounds to stop him.

Let me get this straight, so Meneses was a plant because he didn't take a dive? If Jones was a potentially great HW Meneses wouldn't have knocked him down in the first place. Perhaps if Jones dedicated himself to boxing 10 or 20 years earlier than he did, maybe a different story, but Jones was a terrible fighter.

[Tony1244]

Think I read all the replies, no Benny Leonard? - The old timers always espoused his ring brilliance. I personally have no real clue.

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

I remembered a Leonard anecdote I read in one of the boxing magazines back in the '80s. Leonard use to 'touch' his opponents to throw off their timing. Never really understood the dynamics of it, just remember one old timer talking about the tactic..

I remember SRL using the expression, "Lull them into a false sense of security." I thought that was pretty cool.

[oogiebe]

I mentioned Willie Pepp...Forgot about Leonard as well. The science isn't as sweet as it used to be.

I remembered a Leonard anecdote I read in one of the boxing magazines back in the '80s. Leonard use to 'touch' his opponents to throw off their timing. Never really understood the dynamics of it, just remember one old timer talking about the tactic..

I remember SRL using the expression, "Lull them into a false sense of security." I thought that was pretty cool.

Remember how Victor Galindez would relax his arms and sigh, then punch? His opponent would mirror him and POW!

[Tony1244]

I remembered a Leonard anecdote I read in one of the boxing magazines back in the '80s. Leonard use to 'touch' his opponents to throw off their timing. Never really understood the dynamics of it, just remember one old timer talking about the tactic..

I remember SRL using the expression, "Lull them into a false sense of security." I thought that was pretty cool.

Remember how Victor Galindez would relax his arms and sigh, then punch? His opponent would mirror him and POW!

Boxing is a lot like chess. You set up traps.

[oogiebe]

I remember SRL using the expression, "Lull them into a false sense of security." I thought that was pretty cool.

Remember how Victor Galindez would relax his arms and sigh, then punch? His opponent would mirror him and POW!

Boxing is a lot like chess. You set up traps.

Those 'Little Things' are what I love about the science. subtleties...many don't see.

[Kalan]

1 - Meneses 5-6-0.... If you have LITTLE or NO amateur experience, your first few opponents are generally throw away opponents making their debut or having 1 or 2 wins at the most... As you can see Meneses had 5 wins in 11 fights... Not an appropriate boxer for a pro debut vs somebody with almost ZERO experience... I suspect he was a ringer put in to beat Jones... He was allowed by the referee to get away with a massive foul -- hitting a sitting down Jones with a devastating head shot leaves me to believe he was a plant... However Jones upset the apple cart and beat him easy...

2- Holloman 1-15-2 Is an opponent Too Tall should have fought in his 1st fight... Made no sense after Meneses

He didn't beat Meneses easy, he won by a MD, a decision that was loudly booed. The ref also let Jones corner away with a massive foul, his cornermen ran into the ring and had to be pushed out, rubbing what was described as smelling salts under Jones nose. A rematch with Meneses was on the cards but Jones quit boxing soon after.

In regards to Holloman, do you know who his one win was against? You got it, Meneses. Even then it took Jones 6 rounds to stop him.

Let me get this straight, so Meneses was a plant because he didn't take a dive? If Jones was a potentially great HW Meneses wouldn't have knocked him down in the first place. Perhaps if Jones dedicated himself to boxing 10 or 20 years earlier than he did, maybe a different story, but Jones was a terrible fighter.

Meneses DIDN'T knock Too Tall Jones down you dumb bunny... He PUSHED him down and then slugged him with a massive left hook while he was sitting on the canvas... Jones was NEVER knocked down in his boxing career and a lot of great fighters were knocked down and OUT!!!! Meneses should have been DQ'd, but the corrupt referee didn't take a point.

Jones WON all his fights... Henry Armstrong LOST 3 of his first 4 fights... Including his 3rd fight against a guy making his pro debut... By your reckoning Armstrong was a terrible fighter... He hadn't learned what he was doing at that point.

It takes even the most talented prospects a few months to learn how to box skillfully... And you need good coaching... Too Tall's only assets at that point were his height, weight, reach, strength, power, speed, range, agility, balance, brain power and other natural gifts which allowed him to become a super star all-pro athlete in professional Football...

His God given ability allowed him to win all his initial fights... He certainly didn't have astounding boxing skills as yet.

[Counter-puncher]

[Tony1244]

Meneses DIDN'T knock Too Tall Jones down you dumb bunny... He PUSHED him down and then slugged him with a massive left hook while he was sitting on the canvas... Jones was NEVER knocked down in his boxing career and a lot of great fighters were knocked down and OUT!!!! Meneses should have been DQ'd, but the corrupt referee didn't take a point.

I'm a "dumb bunny" because I didn't recall a fight I saw once from 39 years ago? You are a rough customer.

That fight never made it to youtube. It's more covered up than the CIA findings on the Warren Commission. Perhaps Meneses should have been DQd, but the ref was more likely inept. Having said that, if TTJ was ready for prime time, he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

Jones WON all his fights... Henry Armstrong LOST 3 of his first 4 fights... Including his 3rd fight against a guy making his pro debut... By your reckoning Armstrong was a terrible fighter... He hadn't learned what he was doing at that point.

Armstrong started at 22. How old was Jones at this point? I never said that Jones couldn't have been good if he had started way earlier. Ali, Wilder, or most anybody couldn't have started that late in the pros and been formidable. When I said Jones was terrible, I was alluding to how good or bad he was, not what could have been if he had started when he was 6.

It takes even the most talented prospects a few months to learn how to box skillfully... And you need good coaching... Too Tall's only assets at that point were his height, weight, reach, strength, power, speed, range, agility, balance, brain power and other natural gifts which allowed him to become a super star all-pro athlete in professional Football...

His God given ability allowed him to win all his initial fights... He certainly didn't have astounding boxing skills as yet.
[/quote]

Fair enough here, but his opponents were hardly world class. And no people weren't ducking him.

[Kalan]

Yes they WERE ducking him ... They didn't want to get iced in 41 seconds like Montes.

I'm not a rough customer... I just don't like it when people perpetuate lies in trying to put a man down because he was a towering Football player who wanted to become Heavyweight Champion and people weren't going to let him.

And it's been proven OVER and OVER that you don't have to start boxing when you're 6 to be a great fighter... Mike Tyson was Heavyweight Champion 18 months after he turned pro and he was 20 years of age... Joe Louis slaughtered Primo Carnera 11 months after he turned pro... and dominated Max Baer 14 months after he turned pro... Louis was pretty raw when he turned pro and Tyson was easily beaten in the Olympic Trials... They had a long way to go but had coaching.

You don't need to be that great a boxer to beat 95% of the guys in your division if you have good athletic talent... It's not like Tennis or Golf where you have to beat everybody to be the best... There's 17 weight divisions so it limits the number of competitors... It's not like Gymnastics where there are thousands of good coaches -- and the many of the skills are extremely exacting, difficult, take years to master, and it takes massive commitment and dedication if you want to be the all around world champion.. 90% of boxer don't even have a decent stance or a jab -- they're out there throwing hay-makers... But after his first 3 fights Jones was not even getting those guys... His progression and his sparring dried up and was 5th rate.

It's very easy to exclude competitors in Boxing... At one point if you were a black fighter you had little or no chance to fight a top contender or get a title shot... But at least they could fight other black fighters... Too Tall Jones was shut down.

[Controversial]

He certainly didn't have astounding boxing skills as yet.

Yes they WERE ducking him ...

So he didn't have good skills yet but everyone was ducking him? Makes perfect sense haha. You have little knowledge of the sport if thats how you think it works. Guys would have bitten their arm off to fight him, especially after seeing how poor he was. A chance to appear on national TV and become the first to beat him with the spin offs that would have given them. Your nuts if you think otherwise.

[oogiebe]

Once again, I saw Jones' first fight and he was hurt and on rocky legs...I remember watching with my father who was a HUGE NY Giant's fan and he wanted the guy to get the stuffing beat out of him. Last I remember, my dad was hysterically cheering the final minute of the last round as Jones was getting pummeled, shot while down or not. He was badly hurt.

[Flump]

Remember how Victor Galindez would relax his arms and sigh, then punch? His opponent would mirror him and POW!

Boxing is a lot like chess. You set up traps.

Those 'Little Things' are what I love about the science. subtleties...many don't see.

I remember in a couple of later fights Qawi faking as if he was going to take a count then blasting back with a big shot. Quality old man trick.

[Kalan]

[
So he didn't have good skills yet but everyone was ducking him? Makes perfect sense haha. You have little knowledge of the sport if thats how you think it works. Guys would have bitten their arm off to fight him, especially after seeing how poor he was.

No.... They saw how devastating he could be and wanted no part of him... If you're that poor you don't win all your fights with an 83% KO ratio... It was beyond doubt that Too Tall Jones was going to get better with each fight because he was an extremely dedicated athlete... That's why they shut him down.

Why give him a guy who won most of his 31 fights when he has 2 fights.... 3 weeks into his careeer... and give him a lard assed rook for his 6th fight? After making him wait around for months when he wants to fight every week?

[Kalan]

Once again, I saw Jones' first fight and he was hurt and on rocky legs...I remember watching with my father who was a HUGE NY Giant's fan and he wanted the guy to get the stuffing beat out of him. Last I remember, my dad was hysterically cheering the final minute of the last round as Jones was getting pummeled, shot while down or not. He was badly hurt.

You're a false witness... He won... He wasn't badly hurt or they WOULDN'T fight him twice more in the next 3 weeks....

Explain why they would if he was so hurt???

[oogiebe]

Once again, I saw Jones' first fight and he was hurt and on rocky legs...I remember watching with my father who was a HUGE NY Giant's fan and he wanted the guy to get the stuffing beat out of him. Last I remember, my dad was hysterically cheering the final minute of the last round as Jones was getting pummeled, shot while down or not. He was badly hurt.

You're a false witness... He won... He wasn't badly hurt or they WOULDN'T fight him twice more in the next 3 weeks....

Explain why they would if he was so hurt???

I can't answer that as I wasn't involved in his management. I searched the web for a video and couldn't find anything but his last fight. I saw what I saw. Please don't say I'm a false witness...I don't like that.