BoxRec

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 13:10

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 12:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:15

Haye moved up from CW and was the #2 heavyweight in the world, which is exactly the same ranking as Wilder.

Am I missing the point as well?

Clearly as no one mentioned rankings.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 13:14

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 16:05
What’s more relevant and pertinent in this debate is how many CWs have had successful careers at HW? After all the CW limit is 200lb and physically they are more on a par with Marciano. If the jump up is so easy why is Holyfield the only one in 40 years to have great success?

No it isn't, you total retard.

'Fighters the same frame & weight must therefore be of a similar quality' : repeat facile argument for all eternity.

Imamu Mayfield= Rocky Marciano

Why don't you list the number of fighters 6'5'' and above who have had top level success in pro boxing, 1880s-present. You wouldn't be able to find 10, and one of them is Wilder, who tellingly has been nursed along and carefully protected from the catastrophic LKO that is now on the very near horizon.

If being a giant is so beneficial, why haven't they always dominated? Are they so much more talented now? Deontay Wilder falls over himself, literally swings himself off balance like a sub novice amateur, any time he hurts a man. Is this a newly discovered stratosphere of ring technique? Tyson Fury on the floor vs old middling cruiser Cunningham, Valuev jellied by beefed up cruiser Haye--these giants are the best ever! No one can hurt them! Except the cruisers that do!

Yuzo wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 08:33

astradamus wrote: ↑31 Oct 2018, 13:03 I'd be highly surprised if this would be anything remotely competative, Wilder is far taller, got a much longer range, is bigger in every way.

he still has to box smart. here he is trading a pair of right hands with david haye.



he got hit because when a big man and a shorter man are trading a pair of right hands, the shorter man can go under the right hand the big man is throwing, but the big man cant.

marciano had a big right hand. he had a big right hand because boxing in a crouch put his body weight over his back leg. when he threw his right hand, his body weight moved from his back leg to his front leg, and when he hit you, he was hitting you with all of his body weight.

marciano may not be a big man. but he does have a big right hand.



the more marciano can get you throwing and trading punches, the more exposed you are to being hit by one big right hand, and doubly so for a big man, because they are especially disadvantaged whenever trading a pair of right hands with a shorter man.

having a reach advantage can keep a guy out on the end of your punches and out of range from his punches. but to keep your reach advantage you must have good footwork. you keep a reach advantage with your feet not your arms. even a fifteen inch reach advantage can be taken away by just one foot step. remember this whenever pointing out a reach advantage.

jas80s wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 15:12 This is an excellent post, thank you.

And this from a Marciano fan who nonetheless can't help but wonder how the Rock would deal with such a long jab hiding a truly massive right hand from Wilder....

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 11:35

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:48 Yes, and Michael Moorer, Roy Jones and Michael Spinks simply skipped the cruiserweight division and won titles.
Chris Byrd was a small heavyweight who could easily have had a career at cruiserweight. He had some success at heavyweight as well.
Wilder himself is much lighter than most of the other heavyweights.

It's more than the old "styles makes fight cliche". It's how good you are that is the most important thing.

Your missing the point my friend. The general consensus seems to be that Marciano could easily beat Wilder and his size wouldn’t be a issue. What I’m saying is Marciano would be a CW today, a small one at that, and only one CW in history has had major success at HW. Holyfield had the height, reach and body frame to add bulk, combined with good boxing ability, so he could compete with the bigger HWs. The smaller HWs in recent times have not only had the physique to be competitive they had combinations of speed, elusiveness, power or good boxing ability. Speed and power is always a dangerous mix.

Tony Bellew fought Haye at HW but always said he wasn’t a HW and neither was Haye. Bellew point blank refused to fight AJ stating he was too big. He said at one point he would fight Wilder and then changed his mind after meeting him and said he could see how big he was and knew he stood no chance. Bellew also said he would fight the biggest of the three, Tyson Fury, but qualified that statement by saying Fury wasn’t a KO puncher so felt he would have more success against him. He also said he wanted the fight straight away to take advantage of Fury’s absence from the ring and wouldn’t fight him later down the line as it was all about “timing”. Bellew isn’t small, he’s 6’3”, but he is a CW not a HW. That’s the difference. You can have good skills like Qawi but if you are naturally a small guy then it gets harder the bigger your opponent naturally is.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 15:54

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 11:35

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:48 Yes, and Michael Moorer, Roy Jones and Michael Spinks simply skipped the cruiserweight division and won titles.
Chris Byrd was a small heavyweight who could easily have had a career at cruiserweight. He had some success at heavyweight as well.
Wilder himself is much lighter than most of the other heavyweights.

It's more than the old "styles makes fight cliche". It's how good you are that is the most important thing.

Your missing the point my friend. The general consensus seems to be that Marciano could easily beat Wilder and his size wouldn’t be a issue. What I’m saying is Marciano would be a CW today, a small one at that, and only one CW in history has had major success at HW. Holyfield had the height, reach and body frame to add bulk, combined with good boxing ability, so he could compete with the bigger HWs. The smaller HWs in recent times have not only had the physique to be competitive they had combinations of speed, elusiveness, power or good boxing ability. Speed and power is always a dangerous mix.

Tony Bellew fought Haye at HW but always said he wasn’t a HW and neither was Haye. Bellew point blank refused to fight AJ stating he was too big. He said at one point he would fight Wilder and then changed his mind after meeting him and said he could see how big he was and knew he stood no chance. Bellew also said he would fight the biggest of the three, Tyson Fury, but qualified that statement by saying Fury wasn’t a KO puncher so felt he would have more success against him. He also said he wanted the fight straight away to take advantage of Fury’s absence from the ring and wouldn’t fight him later down the line as it was all about “timing”. Bellew isn’t small, he’s 6’3”, but he is a CW not a HW. That’s the difference. You can have good skills like Qawi but if you are naturally a small guy then it gets harder the bigger your opponent naturally is.

Is had major success at heavyweight and ignore the lightheavyweights who skipped the cruiserweight division.
You can't just ignore the light heavyweights who did and simply skipped the cruiserweight division. You don't think Spinks, Moorer, Jones etc. could have picked up a Cruiserweight trinket before winning the heavyweight title if they wanted to?

Moorer and Jones can win the heavyweight title but it's hopeless for Marciano?

Don't really care about Tony Bellew.

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 16:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 15:54

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 11:35

Your missing the point my friend. The general consensus seems to be that Marciano could easily beat Wilder and his size wouldn’t be a issue. What I’m saying is Marciano would be a CW today, a small one at that, and only one CW in history has had major success at HW. Holyfield had the height, reach and body frame to add bulk, combined with good boxing ability, so he could compete with the bigger HWs. The smaller HWs in recent times have not only had the physique to be competitive they had combinations of speed, elusiveness, power or good boxing ability. Speed and power is always a dangerous mix.

Tony Bellew fought Haye at HW but always said he wasn’t a HW and neither was Haye. Bellew point blank refused to fight AJ stating he was too big. He said at one point he would fight Wilder and then changed his mind after meeting him and said he could see how big he was and knew he stood no chance. Bellew also said he would fight the biggest of the three, Tyson Fury, but qualified that statement by saying Fury wasn’t a KO puncher so felt he would have more success against him. He also said he wanted the fight straight away to take advantage of Fury’s absence from the ring and wouldn’t fight him later down the line as it was all about “timing”. Bellew isn’t small, he’s 6’3”, but he is a CW not a HW. That’s the difference. You can have good skills like Qawi but if you are naturally a small guy then it gets harder the bigger your opponent naturally is.

Is had major success at heavyweight and ignore the lightheavyweights who skipped the cruiserweight division.
You can't just ignore the light heavyweights who did and simply skipped the cruiserweight division. You don't think Spinks, Moorer, Jones etc. could have picked up a Cruiserweight trinket before winning the heavyweight title if they wanted to?

Moorer and Jones can win the heavyweight title but it's hopeless for Marciano?

Don't really care about Tony Bellew.

As I have explained several times you have to evaluate each fighter in isolation and study why they won. How many would have been a world champ if only one belt existed. Styles make fights.

RJJ picked the easiest fight at HW to get a world title. RJJ was very fast and elusive with very good boxing skill. Ruiz was made for him, thats why he won. Plus he wasn't that much smaller than Ruiz anyway. Notice how RJJ didn't stick at HW. Didn't dominate the division.

Moorer had the build for HW, 6'2" with a 78" reach. He took the easiest route fighting for the WBO belt against a blown up CW (who nearly beat him too) and frankly beat a poor version of Holyfield to win another belt, losing the rematch. Didn't dominate the division.

Spinks was a great fighter. He was fast, awkward and punched in combinations. Also he was almost 6'3" with a 76" reach so a decent size for a HW. Thats why he had success.

Haye was 6'3" with a 78" reach. Fast and punched hard. Thats why he had some success.

So yes of course its possible for a CW or LHW to have success if they have the build and ability to mix it with bigger guys. However in 40 years only one had what I call major success and that was Holyfield. Holyfield was almost 6'3" with a 78" reach and he had great boxing ability.

Marciano didn't have the build of any of the above or any great boxing skill. His only tactic was to slug it out. Why do you need to see how Wilder does with Fury? Fury and Marciano are polar opposites in every category, if Fury beats Wilder that has not reflection on how Marciano would fair.

If we go by the bigger is better is logic, then Wilder has no chance against Fury. He is shorter, has less of a reach, and is lighter.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 23:20

Styles do not make fights. I know people think tink they said something profound when they say that, but it's not true. They can only influence fights. It can make a bigger difference. if the two fighters are relatively close in a bility. However, if one fighter is much better, he almost always win. He can do things so much better he can overcome "styles".
People only talk styles after the fight.

Being taller and having a longer reach is not a style. The taller guy doesn't always win. If the shorter fighter has more power, has a better chin, is tougher, is smarter, is faster, is harder to hit, has better stamina? He is most likely going to win. He will find a way to get inside the long reach.

Moorer, Spinks , and Jones didn't dominate the division. However, hardly anyone has ever dominated the division when the division was good. Holyfield didn't Lewis, didn't, Bowe didn't. etc. However, they proved yet again that it's ability that wins fights.

The Fury-Wilder fight may shows us something. This is a test. If one of them scorres an impressive win, then we may have something. We may learn if Wilder can take a punch, if his power is the real thing. Can he come up with a Plan B if he has to? Can he dig down deep if he has to to? Is he more than just a guy who bang out stiffs?

This would be far the biggest win for Wilder. If he wins (and looks good in doing so), then maybe he is for real. Or if Fury can look impressive and win it show Fury might have something. (Of course they could both look terrible.) We shall see.

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 16:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 15:54

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 11:35

Your missing the point my friend. The general consensus seems to be that Marciano could easily beat Wilder and his size wouldn’t be a issue. What I’m saying is Marciano would be a CW today, a small one at that, and only one CW in history has had major success at HW. Holyfield had the height, reach and body frame to add bulk, combined with good boxing ability, so he could compete with the bigger HWs. The smaller HWs in recent times have not only had the physique to be competitive they had combinations of speed, elusiveness, power or good boxing ability. Speed and power is always a dangerous mix.

Tony Bellew fought Haye at HW but always said he wasn’t a HW and neither was Haye. Bellew point blank refused to fight AJ stating he was too big. He said at one point he would fight Wilder and then changed his mind after meeting him and said he could see how big he was and knew he stood no chance. Bellew also said he would fight the biggest of the three, Tyson Fury, but qualified that statement by saying Fury wasn’t a KO puncher so felt he would have more success against him. He also said he wanted the fight straight away to take advantage of Fury’s absence from the ring and wouldn’t fight him later down the line as it was all about “timing”. Bellew isn’t small, he’s 6’3”, but he is a CW not a HW. That’s the difference. You can have good skills like Qawi but if you are naturally a small guy then it gets harder the bigger your opponent naturally is.

Is had major success at heavyweight and ignore the lightheavyweights who skipped the cruiserweight division.
You can't just ignore the light heavyweights who did and simply skipped the cruiserweight division. You don't think Spinks, Moorer, Jones etc. could have picked up a Cruiserweight trinket before winning the heavyweight title if they wanted to?

Moorer and Jones can win the heavyweight title but it's hopeless for Marciano?

Don't really care about Tony Bellew.

As I have explained several times you have to evaluate each fighter in isolation and study why they won. How many would have been a world champ if only one belt existed. Styles make fights.

RJJ picked the easiest fight at HW to get a world title. RJJ was very fast and elusive with very good boxing skill. Ruiz was made for him, thats why he won. Plus he wasn't that much smaller than Ruiz anyway. Notice how RJJ didn't stick at HW. Didn't dominate the division.

Moorer had the build for HW, 6'2" with a 78" reach. He took the easiest route fighting for the WBO belt against a blown up CW (who nearly beat him too) and frankly beat a poor version of Holyfield to win another belt, losing the rematch. Didn't dominate the division.

Spinks was a great fighter. He was fast, awkward and punched in combinations. Also he was almost 6'3" with a 76" reach so a decent size for a HW. Thats why he had success.

Haye was 6'3" with a 78" reach. Fast and punched hard. Thats why he had some success.

So yes of course its possible for a CW or LHW to have success if they have the build and ability to mix it with bigger guys. However in 40 years only one had what I call major success and that was Holyfield. Holyfield was almost 6'3" with a 78" reach and he had great boxing ability.

Marciano didn't have the build of any of the above or any great boxing skill. His only tactic was to slug it out. Why do you need to see how Wilder does with Fury? Fury and Marciano are polar opposites in every category, if Fury beats Wilder that has not reflection on how Marciano would fair.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:31

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 16:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 15:54

Is had major success at heavyweight and ignore the lightheavyweights who skipped the cruiserweight division.
You can't just ignore the light heavyweights who did and simply skipped the cruiserweight division. You don't think Spinks, Moorer, Jones etc. could have picked up a Cruiserweight trinket before winning the heavyweight title if they wanted to?

Moorer and Jones can win the heavyweight title but it's hopeless for Marciano?

Don't really care about Tony Bellew.

As I have explained several times you have to evaluate each fighter in isolation and study why they won. How many would have been a world champ if only one belt existed. Styles make fights.

RJJ picked the easiest fight at HW to get a world title. RJJ was very fast and elusive with very good boxing skill. Ruiz was made for him, thats why he won. Plus he wasn't that much smaller than Ruiz anyway. Notice how RJJ didn't stick at HW. Didn't dominate the division.

Moorer had the build for HW, 6'2" with a 78" reach. He took the easiest route fighting for the WBO belt against a blown up CW (who nearly beat him too) and frankly beat a poor version of Holyfield to win another belt, losing the rematch. Didn't dominate the division.

Spinks was a great fighter. He was fast, awkward and punched in combinations. Also he was almost 6'3" with a 76" reach so a decent size for a HW. Thats why he had success.

Haye was 6'3" with a 78" reach. Fast and punched hard. Thats why he had some success.

So yes of course its possible for a CW or LHW to have success if they have the build and ability to mix it with bigger guys. However in 40 years only one had what I call major success and that was Holyfield. Holyfield was almost 6'3" with a 78" reach and he had great boxing ability.

Marciano didn't have the build of any of the above or any great boxing skill. His only tactic was to slug it out. Why do you need to see how Wilder does with Fury? Fury and Marciano are polar opposites in every category, if Fury beats Wilder that has not reflection on how Marciano would fair.

I get that styles make fights, but how is that applicable here? How do you know how Wilder would deal with Marciano based on Deontay's style?

oogiebe wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 12:08 The Rock was great in his time, but today's HW's are just too big and athletic.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 10:59

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 06:42

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑31 Oct 2018, 21:38 Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

Go back and red what Cojimar, Dr. Duke, jmamb Tony 1244, jcs 80s, Duran 1970, said. They all brought up size right off of the bat and dismissed Marciano.

astradamus wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:36 I'm sorry, but in Marciano his debut he weighted 192 pounds, all fights after, except for one, he was even lighter then that, he's under 5ft11.
If you put those numbers to modern perspective, you could at most compare it to... Well not even cruiserweight, Damien Hooper perhaps? Nah, even Damien Hooper is taller.

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:42 On the balance of things I would favour someone with all the physical and weight advantages combined with one punch finishing power. Marciano got hit plenty, he was no Mayweather, it wouldn't take long for Wilder to land a right hand on him.

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:42

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:31

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 16:23

As I have explained several times you have to evaluate each fighter in isolation and study why they won. How many would have been a world champ if only one belt existed. Styles make fights.

RJJ picked the easiest fight at HW to get a world title. RJJ was very fast and elusive with very good boxing skill. Ruiz was made for him, thats why he won. Plus he wasn't that much smaller than Ruiz anyway. Notice how RJJ didn't stick at HW. Didn't dominate the division.

Moorer had the build for HW, 6'2" with a 78" reach. He took the easiest route fighting for the WBO belt against a blown up CW (who nearly beat him too) and frankly beat a poor version of Holyfield to win another belt, losing the rematch. Didn't dominate the division.

Spinks was a great fighter. He was fast, awkward and punched in combinations. Also he was almost 6'3" with a 76" reach so a decent size for a HW. Thats why he had success.

Haye was 6'3" with a 78" reach. Fast and punched hard. Thats why he had some success.

So yes of course its possible for a CW or LHW to have success if they have the build and ability to mix it with bigger guys. However in 40 years only one had what I call major success and that was Holyfield. Holyfield was almost 6'3" with a 78" reach and he had great boxing ability.

Marciano didn't have the build of any of the above or any great boxing skill. His only tactic was to slug it out. Why do you need to see how Wilder does with Fury? Fury and Marciano are polar opposites in every category, if Fury beats Wilder that has not reflection on how Marciano would fair.

I get that styles make fights, but how is that applicable here? How do you know how Wilder would deal with Marciano based on Deontay's style?

What makes you think Marciano would have success against someone the size of Wilder with his speed and power? On the balance of things I would favour someone with all the physical and weight advantages combined with one punch finishing power. Marciano got hit plenty, he was no Mayweather, it wouldn't take long for Wilder to land a right hand on him. Marciano walked forward, that was his style. Marciano was never hit by someone of that size with KO power and as is proved in recent years small and light HWs haven't had success for a long time in the HW division. That isn't coincidental.

Of course one punch can finish any fight so could Marciano knock Wilder out, yes possibly. Anything is possible in boxing otherwise there would never be any upsets. However my money would be on Wilder.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:31

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:42

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:31

I get that styles make fights, but how is that applicable here? How do you know how Wilder would deal with Marciano based on Deontay's style?

What makes you think Marciano would have success against someone the size of Wilder with his speed and power? On the balance of things I would favour someone with all the physical and weight advantages combined with one punch finishing power. Marciano got hit plenty, he was no Mayweather, it wouldn't take long for Wilder to land a right hand on him. Marciano walked forward, that was his style. Marciano was never hit by someone of that size with KO power and as is proved in recent years small and light HWs haven't had success for a long time in the HW division. That isn't coincidental.

Of course one punch can finish any fight so could Marciano knock Wilder out, yes possibly. Anything is possible in boxing otherwise there would never be any upsets. However my money would be on Wilder.

I'm not anti-Wilder, I'm a fan actually, but I think his power is highly overrated at the moment. It took him nine rounds to put Molina away, eleven for Duhaupas, nine for Szpilka, eight for a shot Areolla.

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:39

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:31

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:42

What makes you think Marciano would have success against someone the size of Wilder with his speed and power? On the balance of things I would favour someone with all the physical and weight advantages combined with one punch finishing power. Marciano got hit plenty, he was no Mayweather, it wouldn't take long for Wilder to land a right hand on him. Marciano walked forward, that was his style. Marciano was never hit by someone of that size with KO power and as is proved in recent years small and light HWs haven't had success for a long time in the HW division. That isn't coincidental.

Of course one punch can finish any fight so could Marciano knock Wilder out, yes possibly. Anything is possible in boxing otherwise there would never be any upsets. However my money would be on Wilder.

I'm not anti-Wilder, I'm a fan actually, but I think his power is highly overrated at the moment. It took him nine rounds to put Molina away, eleven for Duhaupas, nine for Szpilka, eight for a shot Areolla.

And Marciano took many rounds to beat Louis, Charles, Walcott (1st), Cockell, LaStarza and Moore hitting them hundreds of times in process. When Wilder connects properly its normally fight over, unlike AJ he normally leaves guys out for the count, that’s a sign of real power.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:49

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:39

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 09:31

I'm not anti-Wilder, I'm a fan actually, but I think his power is highly overrated at the moment. It took him nine rounds to put Molina away, eleven for Duhaupas, nine for Szpilka, eight for a shot Areolla.

And Marciano took many rounds to beat Louis, Charles, Walcott (1st), Cockell, LaStarza and Moore hitting them hundreds of times in process. When Wilder connects properly its normally fight over, unlike AJ he normally leaves guys out for the count, that’s a sign of real power.

I didn't say anything about Marciano's power, not one word. You're a bit sensitive about this aren't you.

Quantrax wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:56

oogiebe wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 12:08 The Rock was great in his time, but today's HW's are just too big and athletic.

Athletic?! Wtf

Yuzo wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 08:59

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Nov 2018, 06:42 On the balance of things I would favour someone with all the physical and weight advantages combined with one punch finishing power. Marciano got hit plenty, he was no Mayweather, it wouldn't take long for Wilder to land a right hand on him.

well, he had to hit johann duhaupas with everything, and i think, he can take out marciano with one shot, but suppose he cant, and the way he had to hit duhaupas with everything is the way he has to try to beat marciano.