BoxRec

jamamb wrote: ↑20 Nov 2018, 04:40

Lackeos wrote: ↑20 Nov 2018, 00:04

jamamb wrote: ↑19 Nov 2018, 09:26 hes done more then wilder and aj had done, and done more then several of there title opponents had done. i mean for example he easily beat johann duhaupas and gerald washington, and both of those guys had already had title shots but he hasnt. other less proven guys who fought for titles recently : andy ruiz, hughie fury, raz cojanu, charles martin, artur szpilka.tyson fury really wasnt much more proven if at all either. and joe parker had only really beaten takam before getting his wbo shot, and stiverne only really beaten 40 year old ray austin and arreola before his.

most champs actually hadnt done all that much before getting shots. these days its pretty rare to have someone super proven before getting a title shot.

miller is probably the 2nd most proven out of hws who havent got a title shot yet (behind whyte, who at least already got a fight vs one of the big names)

Yep, accurate. The most fair way to judge if a fighter has earned a shot to a great degree, an average amount, or a below average amount, is to just compare what he's done to everyone else in the division. There are some people in boxing forums who have this unrealistic standard for what it takes to earn a title shot, but the most objective standard is to just look at what everyone else did to earn it.

Probably about one-third of recent heavyweight title challengers didn't even have a single scalp as good as Washington when they got the call to fight for a title. At least half of recent HW title challengers don't have a scalp as good as Duhaupas, and among those that do, some didn't have a second decent win.

spot on

Makes it even sadder for Whyte who has won and defended that stupid silver belt a few times, and then they bump him out from a shot at Wilder, and put Brazeale ( who has had one decent fight since his loss to AJ) in the #1 spot.

Lackeos wrote: ↑20 Nov 2018, 00:35 Miller's key wins: Duhaupas, Wach, Washington, Adamek, Dinu

The key wins of other title challengers at the time of their first shot (I've left out a few like Briggs and Rahman whose best wins were like decades old):
Luis Ortiz: Jennings, Malik Scott, past-it Tony Thompson, Kayode
Ustinov: past-it David Tua, Monte Barrett
Washington: draw with Mansour, past-it Chambers
Szpilka: Adamek
Duhaupas: MD over Charr
Molina: Tony Grano
Charles Martin: Tom Dallas, pre-prime Dawejko
Takam: Tony Thompson, draw with Mike Perez
Hughie Fury: Andriy Rudenko
Razvan Cojanu: literally nobody
Parker: Takam, Dimitrenko
Ruiz Jr.: Joe Hanks, Tor Hamer, corpse of Liakhovich
Breazeale: Mansour (and mostly because Mansour didn't have a real gum shield)
Anthony Joshua: unproven Dillian Whyte (borderline top 50 at the time), Gary Cornish
Wilder: Malik Scott
Stiverne: Arreola
Lucas Browne: Richard Towers, corpse of James Toney, Andriy Rudenko
Tyson Fury: Chisora, Cunningham, Hammer
Jennings: Mike Perez, Szpilka, Fedosov, past-it Liakhovich
Glazkov: Cunningham (gift), Adamek
Pulev: Tony Thompson, Ustinov, Dimitrenko
Alex Leapai: Denis Boytsov
Chisora: Sam Sexton
Manuel Charr: Taras Bidenko
Odlanier Solis: Ray Austin, Monte Barret
Albert Sosnowski: draw with Pianeta
Francesco Pianeta: past-it Oliver McCall, pre-prime Duhaupas, draw with Sosnowski
Wach: Tye Fields, pre-prime Christian Hammer
Andrzej Wawrzyk: Denis Bakhtov, Devin Vargas
Kevin Johnson: Devin Vargas
Cedric Boswell: past-it Oliver McCall, Roman Greenberg
Povetkin: Chambers, past-it Chris Byrd
Arreola: Jameel McCline, Chazz Witherspoon

By my estimate, Miller's accomplishments so far are better than about 82% of other heavyweight first-time title challengers lately. So is it safe to say that he's done an above average amount to earn a heavyweight title shot, compared to the standard of other title challengers?

Yeah I guess you have pretty good point here.


I look at the thing from little bit different perspective... In my opinion Joshua is the undisputed HW king. Hes resume is so far above everyone else that its not even funny anymore

Right now the most deserving contenders are... Pulev, Wilder, Fury, Whyte and after those Miller. So the question is have you earned shot at the champion if there is four other guys ahead of you in the line?

In my opinion no. Being challenger number five is not good enough. Also there are couple of guys who are not far behind Miller. With just one solid win guys like Ortiz, Chisora or Jennings can cut the line ahead of Miller.

Undeserving dudes get title shots all the time but that's not how it should be

Heretic wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:25

Lackeos wrote: ↑20 Nov 2018, 00:35 Miller's key wins: Duhaupas, Wach, Washington, Adamek, Dinu

The key wins of other title challengers at the time of their first shot (I've left out a few like Briggs and Rahman whose best wins were like decades old):
Luis Ortiz: Jennings, Malik Scott, past-it Tony Thompson, Kayode
Ustinov: past-it David Tua, Monte Barrett
Washington: draw with Mansour, past-it Chambers
Szpilka: Adamek
Duhaupas: MD over Charr
Molina: Tony Grano
Charles Martin: Tom Dallas, pre-prime Dawejko
Takam: Tony Thompson, draw with Mike Perez
Hughie Fury: Andriy Rudenko
Razvan Cojanu: literally nobody
Parker: Takam, Dimitrenko
Ruiz Jr.: Joe Hanks, Tor Hamer, corpse of Liakhovich
Breazeale: Mansour (and mostly because Mansour didn't have a real gum shield)
Anthony Joshua: unproven Dillian Whyte (borderline top 50 at the time), Gary Cornish
Wilder: Malik Scott
Stiverne: Arreola
Lucas Browne: Richard Towers, corpse of James Toney, Andriy Rudenko
Tyson Fury: Chisora, Cunningham, Hammer
Jennings: Mike Perez, Szpilka, Fedosov, past-it Liakhovich
Glazkov: Cunningham (gift), Adamek
Pulev: Tony Thompson, Ustinov, Dimitrenko
Alex Leapai: Denis Boytsov
Chisora: Sam Sexton
Manuel Charr: Taras Bidenko
Odlanier Solis: Ray Austin, Monte Barret
Albert Sosnowski: draw with Pianeta
Francesco Pianeta: past-it Oliver McCall, pre-prime Duhaupas, draw with Sosnowski
Wach: Tye Fields, pre-prime Christian Hammer
Andrzej Wawrzyk: Denis Bakhtov, Devin Vargas
Kevin Johnson: Devin Vargas
Cedric Boswell: past-it Oliver McCall, Roman Greenberg
Povetkin: Chambers, past-it Chris Byrd
Arreola: Jameel McCline, Chazz Witherspoon

By my estimate, Miller's accomplishments so far are better than about 82% of other heavyweight first-time title challengers lately. So is it safe to say that he's done an above average amount to earn a heavyweight title shot, compared to the standard of other title challengers?

I look at the thing from little bit different perspective... In my opinion Joshua is the undisputed HW king. Hes resume is so far above everyone else that its not even funny anymore

Right now the most deserving contenders are... Pulev, Wilder, Fury, Whyte and after those Miller. So the question is have you earned shot at the champion if there is four other guys ahead of you in the line?

In my opinion no. Being challenger number five is not good enough. Also there are couple of guys who are not far behind Miller. With just one solid win guys like Ortiz, Chisora or Jennings can cut the line ahead of Miller.
=

If you're gonna think that then it's not really accurate. Wilder is a world champion and Fury is fighting him.. Pulev is now mandatory challenger so once it's forced, he will fight AJ. Whyte is more or less booked in for April, he just has to get past Chisora. Whyte will likely get his chance before Miller.

If Joshua had all 4 major belts, then I completely agree with you're thinking.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:43

Heretic wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:25

Lackeos wrote: ↑20 Nov 2018, 00:35 Miller's key wins: Duhaupas, Wach, Washington, Adamek, Dinu

The key wins of other title challengers at the time of their first shot (I've left out a few like Briggs and Rahman whose best wins were like decades old):
Luis Ortiz: Jennings, Malik Scott, past-it Tony Thompson, Kayode
Ustinov: past-it David Tua, Monte Barrett
Washington: draw with Mansour, past-it Chambers
Szpilka: Adamek
Duhaupas: MD over Charr
Molina: Tony Grano
Charles Martin: Tom Dallas, pre-prime Dawejko
Takam: Tony Thompson, draw with Mike Perez
Hughie Fury: Andriy Rudenko
Razvan Cojanu: literally nobody
Parker: Takam, Dimitrenko
Ruiz Jr.: Joe Hanks, Tor Hamer, corpse of Liakhovich
Breazeale: Mansour (and mostly because Mansour didn't have a real gum shield)
Anthony Joshua: unproven Dillian Whyte (borderline top 50 at the time), Gary Cornish
Wilder: Malik Scott
Stiverne: Arreola
Lucas Browne: Richard Towers, corpse of James Toney, Andriy Rudenko
Tyson Fury: Chisora, Cunningham, Hammer
Jennings: Mike Perez, Szpilka, Fedosov, past-it Liakhovich
Glazkov: Cunningham (gift), Adamek
Pulev: Tony Thompson, Ustinov, Dimitrenko
Alex Leapai: Denis Boytsov
Chisora: Sam Sexton
Manuel Charr: Taras Bidenko
Odlanier Solis: Ray Austin, Monte Barret
Albert Sosnowski: draw with Pianeta
Francesco Pianeta: past-it Oliver McCall, pre-prime Duhaupas, draw with Sosnowski
Wach: Tye Fields, pre-prime Christian Hammer
Andrzej Wawrzyk: Denis Bakhtov, Devin Vargas
Kevin Johnson: Devin Vargas
Cedric Boswell: past-it Oliver McCall, Roman Greenberg
Povetkin: Chambers, past-it Chris Byrd
Arreola: Jameel McCline, Chazz Witherspoon

By my estimate, Miller's accomplishments so far are better than about 82% of other heavyweight first-time title challengers lately. So is it safe to say that he's done an above average amount to earn a heavyweight title shot, compared to the standard of other title challengers?

I look at the thing from little bit different perspective... In my opinion Joshua is the undisputed HW king. Hes resume is so far above everyone else that its not even funny anymore

Right now the most deserving contenders are... Pulev, Wilder, Fury, Whyte and after those Miller. So the question is have you earned shot at the champion if there is four other guys ahead of you in the line?

In my opinion no. Being challenger number five is not good enough. Also there are couple of guys who are not far behind Miller. With just one solid win guys like Ortiz, Chisora or Jennings can cut the line ahead of Miller.
=

If you're gonna think that then it's not really accurate. Wilder is a world champion and Fury is fighting him.. Pulev is now mandatory challenger so once it's forced, he will fight AJ. Whyte is more or less booked in for April, he just has to get past Chisora. Whyte will likely get his chance before Miller.

If Joshua had all 4 major belts, then I completely agree with you're thinking.

I don't give much weight to the trinkets. Aj is the one with all of the meaningful wins so hes the champ and others are just challengers.

Heretic wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:25 In my opinion no. Being challenger number five is not good enough. Also there are couple of guys who are not far behind Miller. With just one solid win guys like Ortiz, Chisora or Jennings can cut the line ahead of Miller.

Undeserving dudes get title shots all the time but that's not how it should be

My perspective, on the three ways I categorize challengers, is...

People like Wawrzyk, Boswell, Leapai, Martin, Cojanu, Sosnowski, etc. are undeserving challengers who should not have come near a title shot, and we have a right to be mad whenever someone like this gets a shot. Most likely they skipped past 15 or 20 more deserving fighters who were in line. If anyone asked you to predict who the next title challenger would be, no way that their names would even cross your mind as a possibility.

People who've achieved a top 13 rank or so by beating a top 20 opponent, or a top 25 opponent plus another top 35 opponent, are standard challengers. I'm talking about challengers like Takam, Jennings, and Glazkov. You can't complain about them, they're all right. This is a standard title defense that has a normal, legitimate look and feel; nothing suspicious.

People who've achieved a top 7 rank or so by beating a top 10 + a top 15 opponent, or by beating 4x top 25 opponents, or something like that, are super contenders. These are people like Luis Ortiz, Povetkin going into the Joshua fight, Fury going into the Klitschko fight, Pulev now, Miller, Whyte, etc. These guys did well more than the normal effort to get a title shot, they are past due to get their shot, they've probably been repeatedly passed-up in favor of less deserving challengers, and they basically deserve a standing slow clap for how much they've done to earn their spot. When these super contenders get a title shot, it's like an out-of-the-ordinary gift to the fans.