Hey I ain't never gonna Fury too much f*cking credit for that abysmal ass fight my damn self. I think this has been well established on this forum.
On paper, yes, and as far as history goes, yes.
Mayweather was caught with a drip in his arm. Leonard built himself up with PEDs for Hearns II. Pacheco was injecting Ali with steroids. Roy Jones had multiple failed tests that his legal team covered up. Just picking on fan favourites to show that this is professional sports in today's world...
People that understand boxing history understand that beating an ancient fighter doesn't mean anything. If anything in this case it makes him look worse since he didn't beat him nearly as badly as a great fighter would have.
Wladimir was the current and reigning Heavyweight Champion of the World when Tyson Fury beat him. Dismissing him as shot in that case is just plain stupid.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 11:57People that understand boxing history understand that beating an ancient fighter doesn't mean anything. If anything in this case it makes him look worse since he didn't beat him nearly as badly as a great fighter would have.
Guess we have to count Berbick's win over Ali is a "marquee win". So is Holmes over Ali. so is Marciano and Charles over Louis. So are several guys over Duran.
How about Tyson over Holmes? Isn't that a "Marquee Win"?
You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighters career and the stage of the career of his opponents when rating him.
Stop hiding behind crap like the number of title defenses and "Marquee wins".
You have to take into consideration the quality of opponents when talking about records and title defenses.
This is Boxing 101.
Yeah, it's almost like the heavyweight division has been awful for a long time and old guy (who got stopped by three ordinary fighters in his prime) could still be the champion.gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 12:59Wladimir was the current and reigning Heavyweight Champion of the World when Tyson Fury beat him. Dismissing him as shot in that case is just plain stupid.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 11:57People that understand boxing history understand that beating an ancient fighter doesn't mean anything. If anything in this case it makes him look worse since he didn't beat him nearly as badly as a great fighter would have.
Guess we have to count Berbick's win over Ali is a "marquee win". So is Holmes over Ali. so is Marciano and Charles over Louis. So are several guys over Duran.
How about Tyson over Holmes? Isn't that a "Marquee Win"?
You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighters career and the stage of the career of his opponents when rating him.
Stop hiding behind crap like the number of title defenses and "Marquee wins".
You have to take into consideration the quality of opponents when talking about records and title defenses.
This is Boxing 101.
When Berbick or Holmes beat Ali, he wasn't Champion.
He's like a heavyweight version of the great Eusebio Pedrosa, the most complete fighter of all time.Ezzard wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 14:11 Not sure I've ever seen a HW as versatile as Fury. He can move and jab to a decision. He has great infighting skills not unlike a HW version of Andre Ward (with all the dark arts too). He has also punched it out when he's needed to. He has fantastic counter-punching ability too.
Or he got better.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 16:36Yeah, it's almost like the heavyweight division has been awful for a long time and old guy (who got stopped by three ordinary fighters in his prime) could still be the champion.gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 12:59Wladimir was the current and reigning Heavyweight Champion of the World when Tyson Fury beat him. Dismissing him as shot in that case is just plain stupid.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 11:57
People that understand boxing history understand that beating an ancient fighter doesn't mean anything. If anything in this case it makes him look worse since he didn't beat him nearly as badly as a great fighter would have.
Guess we have to count Berbick's win over Ali is a "marquee win". So is Holmes over Ali. so is Marciano and Charles over Louis. So are several guys over Duran.
How about Tyson over Holmes? Isn't that a "Marquee Win"?
You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighters career and the stage of the career of his opponents when rating him.
Stop hiding behind crap like the number of title defenses and "Marquee wins".
You have to take into consideration the quality of opponents when talking about records and title defenses.
This is Boxing 101.
When Berbick or Holmes beat Ali, he wasn't Champion.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 12:14 Klitschko got stopped by Ross Purrity.
Klitschko got stopped by Corrie Sanders.
Klitschko got stopped by Lamon Brewster.
Truly legends in the sport.
Are you saying Mohammad Ali wasn't a very good boxer?BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 21:50Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 12:14 Klitschko got stopped by Ross Purrity.
Klitschko got stopped by Corrie Sanders.
Klitschko got stopped by Lamon Brewster.
Truly legends in the sport.
- Olympic Gold medalist Clay Knocked down by 190lb prospect Sonny Banks.
Clay beat up by 190 lb fringe contender Doug Jones.
Clay knocked out by 175 lb Henry Cooper who had to wear weights in his trunks to give the fight credibility. Oh, wait, wait, you don't say slickster Angie pulled a torn glove delaying tactic to extend Clay rest period while applying illegal smelling salts that kicks him into the next round?
Truly boxing GREATS.
In faint hopes that some light may enter that vast void of darkness in your world of analytics, a basic 101 timeline comparison working backwards of moderns Fury, Wlad, and Tyson.
1. Fury turns pro age 20 vs usual suspect for 1st rd KO
1. Wlad turns pro as Olympic Gold Medalist age 20 for 1st rd KO.
1. Tyson turns pro after having failed to make the Olympic team, age 18 for a 1st rd KO
2. First fighter of note Fury faces is Big John McDermott who had whooped the pants off Danny Williams to no credit by blinkered Brit fans, here going toe to toe against 21 yr old Fury in a fantastic fight far beyond the capabilities of blinkered Brit fans who insist he beat Fury. Yeah, notorious Brit ref O'Conner may have fluffed the Fury scorecard, but he blew it when last round with McD trapped on ropes ready to go bye bye, McD suddenly breaks free to sprint to opposite ringside, the most blatant turning of the back a fighter can make, either automatic DQ or TKO depending on ref discretion, here the ref having zero discretion to match his blinkered Brit compatriots.
2. First noteworthy fight for Wlad was 250 lb Ross Puritty in Wlad's 12th fight in 12 months where exhausted, he takes his first KD and loss when his ama trainer jumps the ring to stop the fight. Yes, an ama trainer and ama manager put a 21 yr old kid on that kind of grueling schedule in advance of his first homecoming professional fight.
2. First noteworthy fighter for Tyson, age 19, is James Tillis featured prominently on terrestrial TV that dominated international viewing then. That got all the monkeys up in arms saying since Tyson couldn't knock out the tricky Tillis, he must've lost that fight in spite of knocking him down and putting him in a stink and run flight for the rest of the fight.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general rating sense for Fury is Derek Chisora with both 14-0, but here Boxrec ratings fail in those post fight rankings that have Chisora ranked 11th that sounds high for a loser, but Fury ranked #1 with is balderdash. More possibly #1 Brit, but no matter, enshrined as such for now on Boxrec.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general sense for Wlad is Monte Barrett, 23-1, or Chris Byrd, 31-1, but here Boxrec again fails by listing ratings as N/A. Wlad whooped both quite easily. Byrd fresh off his lucky Vitali ama trainer stopping that fight on Vit injury who had been pitching a shutout on Byrd, now in top 10 when Wlad whooped him.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general sense for 19 yr old Tyson is Trevor Berbick, the WBC champ whom he KOed inside 2 rounds that introduced the rest of the public to his explosive style.
4. First World Title for Fury is age 27 vs 39 yr old Wlad suffering from his wife's mental collapse requiring Wlad to juggle that care with his newborn daughter's care. Gonna insert myself here as a father potentially facing that problem, that is about as helpless for a family man as it gets. Afterward Fury exposes his true cowardice by dumping the rematch in advance of the Blinkered Brit BBBc 2 yr delayed drug suspension. Nobody can figure blinkered Brits, not even themselves.
4. First World Title for Wlad is age 23 vs the above Chris Byrd where he avenged Vitali in another family shutout.
4. First World Title for Tyson is famously age 19 yrs, a heavyweight record where he obliterates Trevor Berbick, the slayer of Ali as if he were no more than a 6 yr old.
5. First World Title Defense for Fury is age 33 yrs against DWilder whom he KOed the fight before to win that misbegotten title and series.
5. First World Title Defense for Wlad is age 24 vs Derrick Jefferson.
5. First World Title Defense for the now 20 yr old Tyson is the massively bigger, stronger Bonecrusher Smith who tried mightily to hug poor Tyson to death in a fight to forget.
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Fury: KDed by Neven Pajkic, Steve Cunningham. Not including the 4 Wilder KDs, probably missed some more, but boxrec is incomplete. Could've/should've been stopped by Otto Wallin who carved up Fury with one of the worst cuts in the history of heavyweights. Been a Mob fighter since 2017 where he has garnered most of his dubious accolades, an ongoing record of ignobility with no end but dark shadows.
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Wlad start with Ross Puritty where the weakness of his management and ama trainer cost him a shut out fight. The Kbros are very intelligent, enough to quickly adapt professional standards to dominate boxing in a fashion never before witnessed, removing the heavy title from American shores of previous dominance, seemingly forever with few hopes on the American horizon from that point in time
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Tyson start with his HOF manager Jim Jacobs following his HOF trainer Cus D'Amato in death that leaves him rudderless. Scavengers DKing and Robin Givens tag team him resulting in a bi-polar psychiatric diagnosis complete with experimental sedatives that only seem to enhance his explosive violence out of the ring.
7. World Title Record for Fury is 5-0-1, 4 KO with 3 defenses, two against fighters he already fought twice.
7. World Title Record for Wlad is 24-5, 19 KO with 23 successful defenses. Holds World Record as title holder with over 12 years combined totals.
7. World Title Record for Tyson is 12-4, 10 KO holding the record as youngest heavy champ, age 19, and also the riches record after having been the wealthiest fighter at his age before being sent up to the Big House for 3 years. All orchestrated by DKing who appointed his own tax attorney to represent Mike in a felony criminal trial while acquiring Power of Attorney for Mike to look out for his property assets that somehow ended up in King's bank account by the time Mike got out of prison.
8. Current Record for Fury: 33-0-1, 24 KO.
8. Current Record for Wlad is 64-5, 53 KO
8. Current Record for Tyson is 50-6, 44 KO
8. Alpsy Record is He should try smarter, not harder
Vaughn Bean finished 45-6 and is a two time world heavyweight championship challenger, despite his best (pre-title shot) win being Ron McCarthy (7-6-1) in the Big Kahuna Nightclub, Wilmington.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 11:55 Certainly not as good as those guys. Ali lost to Berbick, the "slayer of Ali".
Win/loss records are never deceiving.
How about Lamar Clark? Finished with a career record of 43-3. Imagine if Ali ever had to fight him!
- Overrated obviously to have such controversies. He'd have been savaged on boxrec, and moreover did nothing to dissuade that observation in his next two fights against Liston where he suffers his first strippage.keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 07:16Are you saying Mohammad Ali wasn't a very good boxer?BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 21:50Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 12:14 Klitschko got stopped by Ross Purrity.
Klitschko got stopped by Corrie Sanders.
Klitschko got stopped by Lamon Brewster.
Truly legends in the sport.
- Olympic Gold medalist Clay Knocked down by 190lb prospect Sonny Banks.
Clay beat up by 190 lb fringe contender Doug Jones.
Clay knocked out by 175 lb Henry Cooper who had to wear weights in his trunks to give the fight credibility. Oh, wait, wait, you don't say slickster Angie pulled a torn glove delaying tactic to extend Clay rest period while applying illegal smelling salts that kicks him into the next round?
Truly boxing GREATS.
In faint hopes that some light may enter that vast void of darkness in your world of analytics, a basic 101 timeline comparison working backwards of moderns Fury, Wlad, and Tyson.
1. Fury turns pro age 20 vs usual suspect for 1st rd KO
1. Wlad turns pro as Olympic Gold Medalist age 20 for 1st rd KO.
1. Tyson turns pro after having failed to make the Olympic team, age 18 for a 1st rd KO
2. First fighter of note Fury faces is Big John McDermott who had whooped the pants off Danny Williams to no credit by blinkered Brit fans, here going toe to toe against 21 yr old Fury in a fantastic fight far beyond the capabilities of blinkered Brit fans who insist he beat Fury. Yeah, notorious Brit ref O'Conner may have fluffed the Fury scorecard, but he blew it when last round with McD trapped on ropes ready to go bye bye, McD suddenly breaks free to sprint to opposite ringside, the most blatant turning of the back a fighter can make, either automatic DQ or TKO depending on ref discretion, here the ref having zero discretion to match his blinkered Brit compatriots.
2. First noteworthy fight for Wlad was 250 lb Ross Puritty in Wlad's 12th fight in 12 months where exhausted, he takes his first KD and loss when his ama trainer jumps the ring to stop the fight. Yes, an ama trainer and ama manager put a 21 yr old kid on that kind of grueling schedule in advance of his first homecoming professional fight.
2. First noteworthy fighter for Tyson, age 19, is James Tillis featured prominently on terrestrial TV that dominated international viewing then. That got all the monkeys up in arms saying since Tyson couldn't knock out the tricky Tillis, he must've lost that fight in spite of knocking him down and putting him in a stink and run flight for the rest of the fight.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general rating sense for Fury is Derek Chisora with both 14-0, but here Boxrec ratings fail in those post fight rankings that have Chisora ranked 11th that sounds high for a loser, but Fury ranked #1 with is balderdash. More possibly #1 Brit, but no matter, enshrined as such for now on Boxrec.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general sense for Wlad is Monte Barrett, 23-1, or Chris Byrd, 31-1, but here Boxrec again fails by listing ratings as N/A. Wlad whooped both quite easily. Byrd fresh off his lucky Vitali ama trainer stopping that fight on Vit injury who had been pitching a shutout on Byrd, now in top 10 when Wlad whooped him.
3. First Boxrec ranked top 10 fighter in a general sense for 19 yr old Tyson is Trevor Berbick, the WBC champ whom he KOed inside 2 rounds that introduced the rest of the public to his explosive style.
4. First World Title for Fury is age 27 vs 39 yr old Wlad suffering from his wife's mental collapse requiring Wlad to juggle that care with his newborn daughter's care. Gonna insert myself here as a father potentially facing that problem, that is about as helpless for a family man as it gets. Afterward Fury exposes his true cowardice by dumping the rematch in advance of the Blinkered Brit BBBc 2 yr delayed drug suspension. Nobody can figure blinkered Brits, not even themselves.
4. First World Title for Wlad is age 23 vs the above Chris Byrd where he avenged Vitali in another family shutout.
4. First World Title for Tyson is famously age 19 yrs, a heavyweight record where he obliterates Trevor Berbick, the slayer of Ali as if he were no more than a 6 yr old.
5. First World Title Defense for Fury is age 33 yrs against DWilder whom he KOed the fight before to win that misbegotten title and series.
5. First World Title Defense for Wlad is age 24 vs Derrick Jefferson.
5. First World Title Defense for the now 20 yr old Tyson is the massively bigger, stronger Bonecrusher Smith who tried mightily to hug poor Tyson to death in a fight to forget.
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Fury: KDed by Neven Pajkic, Steve Cunningham. Not including the 4 Wilder KDs, probably missed some more, but boxrec is incomplete. Could've/should've been stopped by Otto Wallin who carved up Fury with one of the worst cuts in the history of heavyweights. Been a Mob fighter since 2017 where he has garnered most of his dubious accolades, an ongoing record of ignobility with no end but dark shadows.
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Wlad start with Ross Puritty where the weakness of his management and ama trainer cost him a shut out fight. The Kbros are very intelligent, enough to quickly adapt professional standards to dominate boxing in a fashion never before witnessed, removing the heavy title from American shores of previous dominance, seemingly forever with few hopes on the American horizon from that point in time
6. Significant signs of troubles or KDs of Tyson start with his HOF manager Jim Jacobs following his HOF trainer Cus D'Amato in death that leaves him rudderless. Scavengers DKing and Robin Givens tag team him resulting in a bi-polar psychiatric diagnosis complete with experimental sedatives that only seem to enhance his explosive violence out of the ring.
7. World Title Record for Fury is 5-0-1, 4 KO with 3 defenses, two against fighters he already fought twice.
7. World Title Record for Wlad is 24-5, 19 KO with 23 successful defenses. Holds World Record as title holder with over 12 years combined totals.
7. World Title Record for Tyson is 12-4, 10 KO holding the record as youngest heavy champ, age 19, and also the riches record after having been the wealthiest fighter at his age before being sent up to the Big House for 3 years. All orchestrated by DKing who appointed his own tax attorney to represent Mike in a felony criminal trial while acquiring Power of Attorney for Mike to look out for his property assets that somehow ended up in King's bank account by the time Mike got out of prison.
8. Current Record for Fury: 33-0-1, 24 KO.
8. Current Record for Wlad is 64-5, 53 KO
8. Current Record for Tyson is 50-6, 44 KO
8. Alpsy Record is He should try smarter, not harder
- Bill Cayton was still a surviving manager. The background was Bejing after Nixon thawed frozen diplomatic relations. China opened up a chain of model cities for western bus tourist dollars to rake in the dough. To further raise the International Chinese profile, Mao who had a thing about Big George and his background story, authorized a $20 mil offer to a Texas boy with business relations in China for a Tyson/Big George bout, the richest prize fight in history. After a week or two of bargaining, papers were being drawn up with a roughly even split of the purse. Before they could finish, the Tiananmen Square Massacre cut off China from most of the Western world. The State Department forbid American travel to China, so The Next Fight of the Century literally died on the vine.keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 09:39
No, but he went from Arum to King to make it happen...... if memory serves. I could never understand how Tyson-Foreman didn't happen. I guess it was another case of the sums not adding up.
Please can you explain your Clay/Ali-Liston theories, I am most interested.BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑17 Dec 2022, 20:42 - Overrated obviously to have such controversies. He'd have been savaged on boxrec, and moreover did nothing to dissuade that observation in his next two fights against Liston where he suffers his first strippage.
That's 4 consecutive fights where he could've, or should've lost and lost badly, and if I have to repeat the two Liston fight summaries, you would be a lost cause.
The myth of the long delay has been disproven for a long time, it never happened, the delay was about 5 seconds,BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 21:50
Oh, wait, wait, you don't say slickster Angie pulled a torn glove delaying tactic to extend Clay rest period
Does his five separate point deductions in separate fights bother you?