BoxRec

skanksta wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 11:06 I've moved to remote rural Wales..
The only posh people are English hippies and downsizers. There must be some posh Welsh people, but they're in a tiny minority compared to England and Scotland.

And English students!

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 06:20

tonyevs wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 04:51

But it’s still the usual middle class winner, and whilst cycling is a very popular hobby/interest for many ... those getting to the top are almost all from privileged middle class backgrounds like Geraint Thomas. British Cycling were recently asked to provide information on the kids in their development academies, and refused because it was estimated to show something like 80% were from middle class backgrounds ... cycling is not a sport you get to the top in from humble beginnings.

And of course. After receiving substantial sponsorship to ride s bike from his early teens - once Geraint Thomas started earning big money he moved to Monaco to avoid paying taxes.

If you can get to the top in Formula One from humble beginnings I'm pretty certain you could do it in cycling, it's all about sponsorship but you've got to show something special to gain that sponsorship.

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

Ellis Genge has come out talking about the class barrier in rugby union. Quite interesting. I’ve always thought England punched way below their weight because they’ve always been full of hooray Henry’s.
Look at football. Not many middle class lads make it in that game, they aren’t tough enough or have enough desire, same in boxing. In a generation or two I reckon the England rugby team will be 99% working class and better for it too.

Schumacher, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, Clark, Surtees etc. all working class

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:41

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 06:20

If you can get to the top in Formula One from humble beginnings I'm pretty certain you could do it in cycling, it's all about sponsorship but you've got to show something special to gain that sponsorship.

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

Ellis Genge has come out talking about the class barrier in rugby union. Quite interesting. I’ve always thought England punched way below their weight because they’ve always been full of hooray Henry’s.
Look at football. Not many middle class lads make it in that game, they aren’t tough enough or have enough desire, same in boxing. In a generation or two I reckon the England rugby team will be 99% working class and better for it too.

Schumacher, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, Clark, Surtees etc. all working class

This theory is evidence-free.
The opposite is happening. As inequality rises, that will accelerate.

skanksta wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 10:50

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 08:26 Rugby is starting to pay bigger money in recent years.

It’s onviously a physically tougher sport than football but I’m talking about the ingrained toughness needed to succeed in high level sport. A working class background is far better for developing that side of any athletes game.
Football is by far the most popular sport in this country. I have no doubt that making it in the sport is the number one ambition of most kids, from all backgrounds. Middle class lads struggle to make any consistent impact because they are up against working class lads from the start and more importantly, it’s a level playing field. The general desire, toughness or whatever you’d call it, means priviliged private school types are left behind. The priviliged kids who do make it in football are usually from a football family who are traditionally working class yet made good money in the game and sent their kids private ( Frank Lampard and Oxlade Chamberlain for example )

My prediction of the middle classes being phased out in rugby union is based on working class kids having access to the game. It’s not everywhere of course but it’s certainly more open to everyone than it was 20 years ago.

The more the sport becomes about money the less it becomes about contacts and background too I would have thought. It’ll become all about the result and nobody will give a toss about your face fitting hopefully!
Might mean England start dominating the game too

I think you're theory is way off.
Public Schools are way over-represented at the top of just about every profession, sport, career you can think of. Privilege rises to the top. More time, more coaching, more facilities, more support, more opportunity, more expensive food. Look at how many Olympic medals were from public schools (half ffs! )

As for Rugby Union - as inequality increases it's getting more like the 19th Century - the rich are taller, stronger than the rest and they breed with their own class.
If anything it's football that will get taken over by the Public Schools.

Not in football or boxing, far from it. I’d say the gap is actually widening and you’re seeing less middle class in them sports than ever before. The Olympics medal hauls are ridiculously skewed. Having sports like rowing, cycling, archery, shooting and the likes boosts the public schools medal haul. Won’t see many middle class sprinters, weightlifters, boxers from these shores winning medals.

Breeding with their own class? The most athletically gifted group of people seen in modern day history have their roots in the most downtrodden, poorest people on the planet! How many elite athletes can trace their ancestry back to slaves? Physical competition is amongst themselves, rowing, rugby ( which is reducing in this country ) and such sports. They steer clear of football and boxing because they don’t stand a chance, it’s an open shop for all.

The upper class breeding is worse than the Jeremy Kyle types who breed! The biggest difference is the Jeremy Kyle types have no teeth and the upper crust cross breeders have too many

skanksta wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 10:49

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:41

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

Ellis Genge has come out talking about the class barrier in rugby union. Quite interesting. I’ve always thought England punched way below their weight because they’ve always been full of hooray Henry’s.
Look at football. Not many middle class lads make it in that game, they aren’t tough enough or have enough desire, same in boxing. In a generation or two I reckon the England rugby team will be 99% working class and better for it too.

Schumacher, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, Clark, Surtees etc. all working class

This theory is evidence-free.
The opposite is happening. As inequality rises, that will accelerate.

England’s last rugby union World Cup squad featured more state school educated players than ever before. Pretty sound evidence there mate.
Three of them that were privately educated were from humble backgrounds yet got into fee paying schools on a scholarship too.

Two generations ago you’d never see the likes of Ellis Genge, Courtney Lawes or Kyle Sinkler anywhere near an England squad. The game is opening up to people, no doubt at all. It’s still not widespread but most secondary schools in my area have teams now. The more accessible it becomes the less you’ll see players in an England shirt with priviliged backgrounds imo.

I’ve always thought the reason why Wales punch so far above their weight in union is because it’s the game of the people and average man. It’s why such a nation with a tiny population regularly embarrasses its bigger neighbour.

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 12:51

skanksta wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 10:49

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 13:41

Schumacher, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, Clark, Surtees etc. all working class

This theory is evidence-free.
The opposite is happening. As inequality rises, that will accelerate.

England’s last rugby union World Cup squad featured more state school educated players than ever before. Pretty sound evidence there mate.
Three of them that were privately educated were from humble backgrounds yet got into fee paying schools on a scholarship too.

Two generations ago you’d never see the likes of Ellis Genge, Courtney Lawes or Kyle Sinkler anywhere near an England squad. The game is opening up to people, no doubt at all. It’s still not widespread but most secondary schools in my area have teams now. The more accessible it becomes the less you’ll see players in an England shirt with priviliged backgrounds imo.

I’ve always thought the reason why Wales punch so far above their weight in union is because it’s the game of the people and average man. It’s why such a nation with a tiny population regularly embarrasses its bigger neighbour.

That's cherry-picking a small data set.
Wales punch above their weight because it's the working man's game ? Wales has the same population as New Zealand so how do you call that "punching above their weight" ? Are they 20 times better at Union than Western Samoa ? No.
Rugby Union is going from strength to strength because of the money - but it's only 'stealing' working class players that were already there - from Rugby League.

A "tough" background isn't a help - it's a hindrance. Since the working class stopped being primarily hard manual labourers their advantage has been evaporating. With rising inequality that trend will continue.

Public School kids have... More playing fields, more facilities, better coaching, more equipment, coaches with more time, better diet, more supportive parents with more funds/transport/time to chase a dream. They also have a wider choice of potential mates (I didn't mean inbreeding - the opposite).

Meanwhile successive governments have cut state school funding, state school funding in sports especially. State schools have been forced to sell off their playing fields. Where the hell is a talented, (say) East London cricketer going to play full size cricket ?! There simply isn't the same environment for talent to flourish - before you've even added the greater percentages that will be suffering from food poverty, family breakdown and what have you.
Then - to make it even worse - public schools are now offering sporting scholarships and "stealing" talent from the state system.

Football and boxing are about the only sports that have been immune to this trend. Football - because you don't need any money or space to play it AND it's never really been part of the public school curriculum. Boxing likewise, and also because that's one sport that's funded "in the ghetto" and few people of privilege need/want to fight for a living. (DelBoy being the obvious exception).

Hats off to the likes of Lewis Hamilton's dad who worked his arse off and lived like a pauper to give his son a chance, but even having a parent like that is a form of privilege. Eton has about 200 kids in a year, yet and Old Etonian has won an Olympic Medal at EVERY Olympic Games since 1992. That's one school - where sport isn't even what they're about !
Privilege counts.

Simple question: Do Public school teachers get an allowance be it financial or timewise, to run the sports teams properly?

Many state schools are stretched financially with teachers voluntarily giving up what little time they have to run after school clubs etc.,

Shhhh wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 22:23 Apart from boxing and football the poshos have it sown up lol

Darts and Snooker? Rugby League?

My point is there’s more working class players involved in union than ever before and more working class players being selected for England too. There’s more secondary schools playing rugby than ever before too.

Surely that means the game is opening up more to others?

Obviously some sports will never be widely available because they simply cost too much money to take part in. Union doesn’t need much more than football really, cost wise.
The extra money coming in to the game means it’ll move away from being a closed shop and it’ll be only about results. If that does happen it won’t matter a toss what background a player has.

Regarding having a tough background, there’s still one or two jobs left that involve a fair amount of labour Skanksta, not every working class person works on a checkout! The biggest pool of local untapped athletic potential will be found in any sizeable scaffolding firm for example. Work comes first for the working class though unfortunately!

Vunipolas were at them schools on scholarships I think Mercs. Their immediate ancestry couldn’t be further away from that environment.

The hardest bastards in the UK are found in the sticks I've noticed, harder than a coffin nail as they say. They look skinny and have a funny accent but these fuckers can carry a gearbox from an artic like it's no heavier than a sack of spuds.

I think that a persons class is very much overplayed with regards to how hungry for success they are or how tough they can be. I've met people from many walks of life and lots of "posh people" are tough as nails because they are raised not to complain and with that traditional Englishness of keeping a stiff upper lip, shoulders back type of mentality. People love to buy into the romanticism of the working-class a little too much I feel, people are people and there are good and bad, talented and untalented in all walks of life. It always baffles me why everyone who is English is so desperate to identify themselves as working-class when statistically it just can't be the case. Theres no shame in being born into money or coming from a middle class area. I say that as the product of a single parent from a poorer part of my city.

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 06:20

tonyevs wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 04:51

But it’s still the usual middle class winner, and whilst cycling is a very popular hobby/interest for many ... those getting to the top are almost all from privileged middle class backgrounds like Geraint Thomas. British Cycling were recently asked to provide information on the kids in their development academies, and refused because it was estimated to show something like 80% were from middle class backgrounds ... cycling is not a sport you get to the top in from humble beginnings.

And of course. After receiving substantial sponsorship to ride s bike from his early teens - once Geraint Thomas started earning big money he moved to Monaco to avoid paying taxes.

If you can get to the top in Formula One from humble beginnings I'm pretty certain you could do it in cycling, it's all about sponsorship but you've got to show something special to gain that sponsorship.

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

My missus went to school with Hamilton and he certainly didn't have it hard growing up. he was also signing lucrative contracts from the age of 13

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 07:08 My point is there’s more working class players involved in union than ever before and more working class players being selected for England too. There’s more secondary schools playing rugby than ever before too.

Surely that means the game is opening up more to others?

Obviously some sports will never be widely available because they simply cost too much money to take part in. Union doesn’t need much more than football really, cost wise.
The extra money coming in to the game means it’ll move away from being a closed shop and it’ll be only about results. If that does happen it won’t matter a toss what background a player has.

Regarding having a tough background, there’s still one or two jobs left that involve a fair amount of labour Skanksta, not every working class person works on a checkout! The biggest pool of local untapped athletic potential will be found in any sizeable scaffolding firm for example. Work comes first for the working class though unfortunately!

Vunipolas were at them schools on scholarships I think Mercs. Their immediate ancestry couldn’t be further away from that environment.

I realise there are still hard labour jobs about - but the trend is obviously decreasing.

You hit the nail on the head with "work comes first" it has too.

Look at all these top actors and entertainers from public school. Now, Eddie Redmayne and Benedict Cumberbatch are very fine actors and deserve their success, BUT, if they were working class ? Would they have fallen by the wayside - having to earn a living, rather than perfect their craft with years of drama school and jobbing parts ?

Steveh583 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 10:53

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

banjo wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 06:20

If you can get to the top in Formula One from humble beginnings I'm pretty certain you could do it in cycling, it's all about sponsorship but you've got to show something special to gain that sponsorship.

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

My missus went to school with Hamilton and he certainly didn't have it hard growing up. he was also signing lucrative contracts from the age of 13

Where Hamilton had it easy compared to most was that he was signed up by McLaren at 13, but prior to that his dad had to utterly work his knackers off to fund his racing. He might not have had it hard, but he certainly wasn't from money, nor were several other F1 champions but people seem to think that is the case. Even the ones from money don't have it easy, Damon Hill spent several years as a fricking labourer on building sites and his dad was one of the greatest racing drivers that ever lived.

banjo wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 11:29

Steveh583 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 10:53

lillywhite14 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2018, 07:28

Hamilton is a unique story. Forumula one will not see another story like that again for decades. It’s very much middle class kids. Money and contacts are the keys when starting out

My missus went to school with Hamilton and he certainly didn't have it hard growing up. he was also signing lucrative contracts from the age of 13

Where Hamilton had it easy compared to most was that he was signed up by McLaren at 13, but prior to that his dad had to utterly work his knackers off to fund his racing. He might not have had it hard, but he certainly wasn't from money, nor were several other F1 champions but people seem to think that is the case. Even the ones from money don't have it easy, Damon Hill spent several years as a fricking labourer on building sites and his dad was one of the greatest racing drivers that ever lived.

Interesting. I don't really know the first thing about the sports in all honesty, but my missus tells me he was always dropped off to school in a flash motor. There was another footballer that went to her school then went on to play for spurs and England but I don't know his name.

Steveh583 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 11:53

banjo wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 11:29

Steveh583 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 10:53

My missus went to school with Hamilton and he certainly didn't have it hard growing up. he was also signing lucrative contracts from the age of 13

Where Hamilton had it easy compared to most was that he was signed up by McLaren at 13, but prior to that his dad had to utterly work his knackers off to fund his racing. He might not have had it hard, but he certainly wasn't from money, nor were several other F1 champions but people seem to think that is the case. Even the ones from money don't have it easy, Damon Hill spent several years as a fricking labourer on building sites and his dad was one of the greatest racing drivers that ever lived.

Interesting. I don't really know the first thing about the sports in all honesty, but my missus tells me he was always dropped off to school in a flash motor. There was another footballer that went to her school then went on to play for spurs and England but I don't know his name.

I think Ashley Young was at the same school as Hamilton. He may well have been dropped off in a flash motor but it probably never belonged to them or if it did it was paid for by sponsors so it never cost them a penny. There's no secret that you need sponsorship to get anywhere beyond the lower levels of in motorsport but this idea that motorsport competitors are all from silver spoon backgrounds and attended private schools is an enormous myth, trust me I make my living from building engines for motorcycle racing so obviously I deal with a fair few people involved in the sport and I can tell you the overwhelming majority of them don't have a pot to piss in, they're just blue collar workers who are in it for a craic.

banjo wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 12:07

Steveh583 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 11:53

banjo wrote: ↑20 Dec 2018, 11:29

Where Hamilton had it easy compared to most was that he was signed up by McLaren at 13, but prior to that his dad had to utterly work his knackers off to fund his racing. He might not have had it hard, but he certainly wasn't from money, nor were several other F1 champions but people seem to think that is the case. Even the ones from money don't have it easy, Damon Hill spent several years as a fricking labourer on building sites and his dad was one of the greatest racing drivers that ever lived.

Interesting. I don't really know the first thing about the sports in all honesty, but my missus tells me he was always dropped off to school in a flash motor. There was another footballer that went to her school then went on to play for spurs and England but I don't know his name.

I think Ashley Young was at the same school as Hamilton. He may well have been dropped off in a flash motor but it probably never belonged to them or if it did it was paid for by sponsors so it never cost them a penny. There's no secret that you need sponsorship to get anywhere beyond the lower levels of in motorsport but this idea that motorsport competitors are all from silver spoon backgrounds and attended private schools is an enormous myth, trust me I make my living from building engines for motorcycle racing so obviously I deal with a fair few people involved in the sport and I can tell you the overwhelming majority of them don't have a pot to piss in, they're just blue collar workers who are in it for a craic.

thats the one. Ashley young. His brother or cousin punched her in the face for "trying to talk black"

It was the talk of the school apparently