BoxRec

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Apr 2019, 23:51 Frazier would massacre fury. But good for you, be done with the thread....

elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Apr 2019, 23:49 Those guys are not in the great Muhammad Ali's class. Please, stop it. Please!

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 02:29 Not upset at all, you're hilarious.

dalcumly wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 04:06 Just a minor point - what was the height/reach difference between Valuev and Haye ?? I believe it was around 11 inches??

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 04:03 https://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html

Do you even realize just how large a difference between 5'11" and 6'9" actually is? Let alone how much harder that problem is when it's a moving target constantly flicking jabs and counter straight hands at you?

If we were talking big targets who just barrelled forward with the grace of a bull elephant like Jess Willard I would agree with you--- but we're not talking about such a proposition.

Fury is 3" taller than Willard, and actually has athleticism, toughness, endurance, speed, skills, and a great ring IQ. Not to mention a reach 12" longer than Frazier (73") at a whopping 85". Those 12 inches may as well be 12 miles. Think Lewis-Tua, and you'd understand the problem here.

dalcumly wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 04:12 The real answer to this question can be found in how you feel about the following - Would the 1966 version of Ali beat the 1973 version of George Foreman. In other words would the quicker and lighter Ali beat the huge but ponderous lethal puncher that was Foreman? In the 1973 fight Ali changed his game plan and outlasted and demoralised Foreman. The 1966 version of Ali couldn't have withstood Foreman if he stopped moving. Personally I think the 1966 'peak' version of Ali would have humiliated Foreman and anyone else.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 10:39 I certainly wouldn't expect him to attempt the rope-a-dope strategy with everyone. He just knew it would work with Foreman. It would be dumb as sh*t to attempt that strategy against Bowe or particularly Lennox Lewis. Lennox would just be patiently picking his shots from a distance. He wouldn't be swinging away, and wearing himself out.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑13 Apr 2019, 04:10 True enough, but even at that the fight was very close. Which is striking because Valuev was slow, ponderous, and not particularly doing much in that ring. Personally, I thought Holyfield was more impressive against Valuev than Haye. However, there's a big difference between a guy like Fury and a guy like Valuev.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑12 Apr 2019, 19:16 If you believe guys like Weaver, Tate, Coetzee, Tubbs, etc could beat the top three (Fury, Wilder, Joshua) as well as the Klitschko's then you certainly see something I don't.

A man going from 147-200 and making an awful lot of heavyweights look silly is not as impressive or more so than just dominating a single weight class, then nothing could convince you of somebody's greatness.

Ali was also dropped by the likes of Duke Sabedong... The point is anyone can look foolish or silly.

I would expect a man 215 pounds to naturally be faster than the 245+ pound heavyweights today... Yes Ali was arguably the fastest all around but there were men with comparable hand and foot speed... But even they lost to larger men. At some point physics will be too much to overcome.

I used to despise Lewis. Wouldn't even rate him higher than #11 for the longest time. I also thought at one time Larry Holmes was no higher than #10. But that was when I was 18-19 years old. I'm 33 now, and see Holmes as #1 and Lewis arguably #5 because at the end of the day one must figure, "Who can beat who?", and it's difficult for me seeing 5'11" Marciano & Frazier & Tyson doing much, etc. I'd still rate Ali somewhere in the top three, but I think he wouldn't be able to do much with Holyfield, Holmes, Lewis, and the much bigger men as well.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑17 Apr 2019, 23:43 Correction.... Ali was knocked out in the amateurs at least four times.... He was basically knocked out against Cooper. He could be knocked out. Anyone can be knocked out. Even guys like Cobb were stopped.

Scypion wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 00:11 I guess that's true, but Ali was never counted out as a pro, and he took a pretty good beating by Joe Frazier.

Controversial wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 08:05 Ali was hurt in several fights, Cooper was only 12 stone 12lbs when he fought Ali and nearly knocked him out. Didn't Foley stagger Ali in one fight?

overhand_right wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 10:34 No, Zora Foley didn't stagger Ali at all. And David Haye was nearly knocked out by the super middleweight Lolenga Mock, and was also down against cruisers Thompson and Mormeck, but went 12 rounds with Wladimir Klitschko, one of the heavyweight division's biggest ever hitters.

I don't know why people bring up fights where a raw novice slipped up while taking chances against an inferior opponent and ignore the much larger body of work of the mature fighter beating better guys and doing so in a disciplined manner. So Clay was down against Banks and Cooper. I guess that guarantees he gets knocked out by Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle and Shavers. That's the way it works right?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑17 Apr 2019, 23:43 Correction.... Ali was knocked out in the amateurs at least four times.... He was basically knocked out against Cooper. He could be knocked out. Anyone can be knocked out. Even guys like Cobb were stopped.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 11:12 And again you are factually wrong. Ali was stopped one time as an amateur, when he was 16 years old.
He was not basically knocked out by Cooper. He was up at the count of 3.