BoxRec

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:11

Billy Tully wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 06:34

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 06:07

How is this Fury's fault. Fury wanted a 35yo Wlad and Wlad said if he beat Chisora he'd box Fury but then avoided him for 4 years. Also a 39yo Wlad had still barely lost a round in a decade, is the best 39 year old heavyweight ever and is still pretty close to his prime given his physical condition. There was no sign ofobvious decline going into the Fury fight. He would also be outboxing AJ 2 years later at 41

Klitschko fans always talk numbers, they never talk names. Understandable when his big wins are Sam Peter, Chris Byrd and David Haye. Talk about being King of the Dung Hill. Horrible, horrible era.

Every era gets called a horrible era including the 90s and 70s at the time. Haye and Povetkin are probably better than anyone Tyson beat. Who did Larry Holmes beat that was so good? Norton? Witherspoon? Cooney? Not too much difference in quality. Wlad took plenty of zeros too.

Without going into a huge rehash, I think with Holmes you had a very experienced and well trained campaigner, facing a lot of very young, fresh fighters. He navigated a lot of unfashionable fighters, who were probably all peaking for Larry. Guys like Renaldo Snipes, who you may scoff at but try getting in a ring with them when undefeated and they are ready to go!

I’m not sure about Holmes and Fury, but could Tyson handle 15 rounds in the heat of Africa against Ali? It’s kind of unknown. I’m not sure I like people writing off Bowe too easily. He had a lot of tools in his arsenal, and if you had chinks in your armour he would probably capitalise. Too much for a pre-Stewart Lewis in my opinion.

While you could def put Fury forward for the GOAT, in the end he didn't have the dance partners, never had a Liston, Foreman or Frazier.
Vlad, Wilder and Whyte aren't enough and beating Joyce, AJ and Usyk won't do it either.
Same with Lennox, beating an over the hill Tyson and Holyfield don't cut it despite demonstrating how much better he was than the other contenders.

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:23 While you could def put Fury forward for the GOAT, in the end he didn't have the dance partners, never had a Liston, Foreman or Frazier.
Vlad, Wilder and Whyte aren't enough and beating Joyce, AJ and Usyk won't do it either.
Same with Lennox, beating an over the hill Tyson and Holyfield don't cut it despite demonstrating how much better he was than the other contenders.

I don’t think people base Lewis’ worth on beating Tyson. It was more a lucrative add on in the mould of Calzaghe v Jones. Holyfield wasn’t still half-bad, and went on after the two Lewis fights at a good level. But yes, Fury needs to stay active, no question. Whyte reminded me of Rahman in that second Lewis fight. Kind of inert and clueless. We need a bit more than that.

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:31

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:23 While you could def put Fury forward for the GOAT, in the end he didn't have the dance partners, never had a Liston, Foreman or Frazier.
Vlad, Wilder and Whyte aren't enough and beating Joyce, AJ and Usyk won't do it either.
Same with Lennox, beating an over the hill Tyson and Holyfield don't cut it despite demonstrating how much better he was than the other contenders.

I don’t think people base Lewis’ worth on beating Tyson. It was more a lucrative add on in the mould of Calzaghe v Jones. Holyfield wasn’t still half-bad, and went on after the two Lewis fights at a good level. But yes, Fury needs to stay active, no question. Whyte reminded me of Rahman in that second Lewis fight. Kind of inert and clueless. We need a bit more than that.

Didn’t you put a few bets on Whyte to win by KO? I’d have thought Tyson KOing someone you thought would do the same to him would be impressive?

Fury doesn’t have the mental fortitude to stand up with the genuine greats. He’s quit the sport about 50 times already.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:19

Billy Tully wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:16

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:11

Every era gets called a horrible era including the 90s and 70s at the time. Haye and Povetkin are probably better than anyone Tyson beat. Who did Larry Holmes beat that was so good? Norton? Witherspoon? Cooney? Not too much difference in quality. Wlad took plenty of zeros too.

Dear God man, you're delusional!

Go on, what are Holmes and Tyson's great wins, school me

If you think Wladimir's wins over Byrd and Haye are comparable, you're too far gone for me to bother with.

On a broader note, i do think the 'every era is seen as bad at the time' argument is trotted out way too much. Sometimes the era is still bad in hindsight. No one looks at the post-Lennox Vitali vs Sanders/Danny Williams days as a halcyon era; no one misses the god awful days of Wladimir, Valuev, J. Ruiz and Chagaev. There was an 8 or 9 year stretch of Wladimir jabbing & grabbing one fat, hapless contender after another. The 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s were clearly more talent-laden and entertaining than the 00s or 20-teens (is that a word?) Fortunately it has finally heated up with Usyk, Fury, AJ and even Wilder.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:43

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:31

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:23 While you could def put Fury forward for the GOAT, in the end he didn't have the dance partners, never had a Liston, Foreman or Frazier.
Vlad, Wilder and Whyte aren't enough and beating Joyce, AJ and Usyk won't do it either.
Same with Lennox, beating an over the hill Tyson and Holyfield don't cut it despite demonstrating how much better he was than the other contenders.

I don’t think people base Lewis’ worth on beating Tyson. It was more a lucrative add on in the mould of Calzaghe v Jones. Holyfield wasn’t still half-bad, and went on after the two Lewis fights at a good level. But yes, Fury needs to stay active, no question. Whyte reminded me of Rahman in that second Lewis fight. Kind of inert and clueless. We need a bit more than that.

Didn’t you put a few bets on Whyte to win by KO? I’d have thought Tyson KOing someone you thought would do the same to him would be impressive?

I did lose £32. It was impressive, but inversely Whyte didn’t look very good. I think Fury is trouble for both Joshua and Usyk no question. He could do with facing both of them and big Joe.

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:13

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:43

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:31

I don’t think people base Lewis’ worth on beating Tyson. It was more a lucrative add on in the mould of Calzaghe v Jones. Holyfield wasn’t still half-bad, and went on after the two Lewis fights at a good level. But yes, Fury needs to stay active, no question. Whyte reminded me of Rahman in that second Lewis fight. Kind of inert and clueless. We need a bit more than that.

Didn’t you put a few bets on Whyte to win by KO? I’d have thought Tyson KOing someone you thought would do the same to him would be impressive?

I did lose £32. It was impressive, but inversely Whyte didn’t look very good. I think Fury is trouble for both Joshua and Usyk no question. He could do with facing both of them and big Joe.

Fury's legacy would be shattered by losing to any of those 3

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:13

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:43

polecateddy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 07:31

I don’t think people base Lewis’ worth on beating Tyson. It was more a lucrative add on in the mould of Calzaghe v Jones. Holyfield wasn’t still half-bad, and went on after the two Lewis fights at a good level. But yes, Fury needs to stay active, no question. Whyte reminded me of Rahman in that second Lewis fight. Kind of inert and clueless. We need a bit more than that.

Didn’t you put a few bets on Whyte to win by KO? I’d have thought Tyson KOing someone you thought would do the same to him would be impressive?

I did lose £32. It was impressive, but inversely Whyte didn’t look very good. I think Fury is trouble for both Joshua and Usyk no question. He could do with facing both of them and big Joe.

32s not bad. I think Whyte looked terrible because Fury made him so. He’d be able to look good on a heavy bag or hammering someone crap but Fury’s movement and defence is good and his jab must be a nitemare to get past.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:46

I think Whyte looked terrible because Fury made him so. He’d be able to look good on a heavy bag or hammering someone crap but Fury’s movement and defence is good and his jab must be a nitemare to get past.

Exactly that. How often have we seen guys look great in fights, blasting people out or looking really skilled. Then they face someone much better and they look poor. Most HWs aren't particularly skilled and Fury knows all the tricks and knows how to use his size effectively. Whyte might have looked great against anyone else in the division that night but Fury just didn't let him fight the fight he wanted.

Controversial wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:51

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:46

I think Whyte looked terrible because Fury made him so. He’d be able to look good on a heavy bag or hammering someone crap but Fury’s movement and defence is good and his jab must be a nitemare to get past.

Exactly that. How often have we seen guys look great in fights, blasting people out or looking really skilled. Then they face someone much better and they look poor. Most HWs aren't particularly skilled and Fury knows all the tricks and knows how to use his size effectively. Whyte might have looked great against anyone else in the division that night but Fury just didn't let him fight the fight he wanted.

This is why I think it’s difficult for people who haven’t boxed to read certain fights. They say things like ‘let your hands go’ and all this. I’ve been outboxed myself and it’s pretty shite letting your hands go when you get countered to the nose and body by someone better.

Fury made Whyte look slow because he was faster. He made whyte look inaccurate because his footwork was excellent. He knocked him clean out because he’d been setting whyte up for ages with the jab and body punching.

Whyte was Whyte, it’s not a matter of him being shite (I’ve never rated him personally) just a matter of Fury being much better.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 04:42

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 04:13 ya, he was just lucky to win as a massive favourite today, nobody expected it

also, didnt you just say, like a couple posts ago, that you werent commenting on fury any more

He was a massive underdog in the Wlad and Wilder fights before they decided not to try.

Don't you think Fury's size, power, movement, and ability to switch stances may have something to do with your perception of "decided not to try?"

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:11

This is why I think it’s difficult for people who haven’t boxed to read certain fights. They say things like ‘let your hands go’ and all this. I’ve been outboxed myself and it’s pretty shite letting your hands go when you get countered to the nose and body by someone better.

nothing like it for making you keep your hands at home

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:38

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:11

This is why I think it’s difficult for people who haven’t boxed to read certain fights. They say things like ‘let your hands go’ and all this. I’ve been outboxed myself and it’s pretty shite letting your hands go when you get countered to the nose and body by someone better.

nothing like it for making you keep your hands at home

Correct Tommy ,, Whyte himself is a big guy carrying too much weight , has was shown by his conditioning , however Tyson is just too big for most guys and he does know how to smother and use his size ,,, If a smaller guy is to beat Fury it would have to be a guy like a 21 year old Mike Tyson ,, fast , lots of movement and rib breaking punches note i said a 21 year old Mike , not the one who come out of prison ,,

coneye wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 10:12

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:38

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:11

This is why I think it’s difficult for people who haven’t boxed to read certain fights. They say things like ‘let your hands go’ and all this. I’ve been outboxed myself and it’s pretty shite letting your hands go when you get countered to the nose and body by someone better.

nothing like it for making you keep your hands at home

Correct Tommy ,, Whyte himself is a big guy carrying too much weight , has was shown by his conditioning , however Tyson is just too big for most guys and he does know how to smother and use his size ,,, If a smaller guy is to beat Fury it would have to be a guy like a 21 year old Mike Tyson ,, fast , lots of movement and rib breaking punches note i said a 21 year old Mike , not the one who come out of prison ,,

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

Interesting regarding the team. Apart from Sugar "topless" Hill, Tyson has mainly kept the same entourage around him, now including Steve Egan. Big Shane, Hughie, Brendan, Tim, Greg, they've been there a while.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:00

coneye wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 10:12

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 09:38

nothing like it for making you keep your hands at home

Correct Tommy ,, Whyte himself is a big guy carrying too much weight , has was shown by his conditioning , however Tyson is just too big for most guys and he does know how to smother and use his size ,,, If a smaller guy is to beat Fury it would have to be a guy like a 21 year old Mike Tyson ,, fast , lots of movement and rib breaking punches note i said a 21 year old Mike , not the one who come out of prison ,,

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

I'm going to disagree, while his record doesn't stack up due to lack of dance partners, I would fancy him against anyone, a fighter so big who really know how to use it, has plan a-z too.

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:20

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:00

coneye wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 10:12

Correct Tommy ,, Whyte himself is a big guy carrying too much weight , has was shown by his conditioning , however Tyson is just too big for most guys and he does know how to smother and use his size ,,, If a smaller guy is to beat Fury it would have to be a guy like a 21 year old Mike Tyson ,, fast , lots of movement and rib breaking punches note i said a 21 year old Mike , not the one who come out of prison ,,

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

I'm going to disagree, while his record doesn't stack up due to lack of dance partners, I would fancy him against anyone, a fighter so big who really know how to use it, has plan a-z too.

I’m not a fan of hypothetical match ups to say who was a better fighter as it’s too hard to judge. All you can really go on is the record of who the fighter has beat. Right now Fury needs the winner of AJ/ Usyk. His resume is good but far from ATG material.

smiling assassin wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 14:08

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:20

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:00

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

I'm going to disagree, while his record doesn't stack up due to lack of dance partners, I would fancy him against anyone, a fighter so big who really know how to use it, has plan a-z too.

I’m not a fan of hypothetical match ups to say who was a better fighter as it’s too hard to judge. All you can really go on is the record of who the fighter has beat. Right now Fury needs the winner of AJ/ Usyk. His resume is good but far from ATG material.

way too many fans hand out hypothetical wins as if they actually count

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:20

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:00

coneye wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 10:12

Correct Tommy ,, Whyte himself is a big guy carrying too much weight , has was shown by his conditioning , however Tyson is just too big for most guys and he does know how to smother and use his size ,,, If a smaller guy is to beat Fury it would have to be a guy like a 21 year old Mike Tyson ,, fast , lots of movement and rib breaking punches note i said a 21 year old Mike , not the one who come out of prison ,,

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

I'm going to disagree, while his record doesn't stack up due to lack of dance partners, I would fancy him against anyone, a fighter so big who really know how to use it, has plan a-z too.

I’m halfway between the two of you I think

I think Fury is, like, a ‘matchup ATG’ because of his size and movement combination- and scale him down to 6’5 or something and he’d just be even quicker- those things combined with the boxing brain and versatility make him a nightmare for nearly anyone

I agree with Tom I think that a few of the slightly smaller ATG’s, Lewis certainly, id start as favourite, probably not Bowe for my money though. I think he’d beat any version of Wlad 7/10 times but Vitalis size strength and persistence would make for a close and hard fight.

I actually think the smaller-still greats, Holyfield certainly and quite possibly someone like Usyk, have it easier with Tyson than most do. If I had to fight Tyson I would want to be the quicker man and better mover. I think that negates his major asset even above his size.

Fury is an ATG. He is clearly better than Klitschkos both in terms of resume and skills.

Never seen Fury vs the caliber of an all time great (at that fighters best). So we don't know how 'fast' or how much great movement he'd show vs a higher level fighter. Let's just keep it that he's proven to be just about the best of his era.

DrDuke wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 15:14 Fury is an ATG. He is clearly better than Klitschkos both in terms of resume and skills.

The only problem that Fury has, is the same problem that Larry Holmes had. A couple of really solid guys, and everybody else is just several notches below. Fury for all intents and purposes is head and shoulders above the entire field--- with Usyk being the one exception, only because of the man's credentials as an amateur and professional as a multi-weight champion.

Think about it, on a scale from 0 to 10, what do you think are the chances of different heavyweights out there being capable of beating Fury? 0 being no chance, 10 being an absolute certainty that they would win.

Joshua? 4 maybe 5, tops.
Ruiz? 2 maybe 3, tops.
Usyk? 5 maybe 6, tops.

There is only one fight out there that makes any real sense to be made and that is undisputed with Usyk. Now it's possible that Joshua could win the rematch but I would say it's a long shot. We have yet to see Usyk in an aggressive fight with the big heavyweights, which is something that Joshua failed to do the first time.

I simply cannot see Joe Joyce, Joseph Parker, Andy Ruiz, and others out there floating about being capable of doing anything to Tyson Fury. If Fury defeated the Ukrainian (or Joshua if Joshua wins the rematch) he could easily have a Larry Holmes type of title reign beating a bunch of stiffs, but I wouldn't really see the point in doing that because the heavyweight division would basically become a mirror of the Klitschko era where nobody really stood a chance until the champion started to skip.

I think we have seen far too many boxers regardless of weight class carry on for too long. I think Fury should have 2-3 matches tops and then call it quits. If I was running his career it would go like this:

-Exhibition w/ Ngannou (Boxing vs MMA)
-Undisputed w/ Joshua-Usyk winner
-Mandatory for the WBA/WBO/IBF/WBC
-Andy Ruiz Jr @ Cinco de Mayo (voluntary)
-Joshua/Usyk loser (voluntary)

That way you could walk away as the undisputed champion, and effectively lay claim to having defeated basically everybody who ever held the title. And effectively get out of the business by summer-autumn 2023.

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 15:45 Think about it, on a scale from 0 to 10, what do you think are the chances of different heavyweights out there being capable of beating Fury? 0 being no chance, 10 being an absolute certainty that they would win.

Joshua? 4 maybe 5, tops.
Ruiz? 2 maybe 3, tops.
Usyk? 5 maybe 6, tops.

Usyk - 4
Joyce - 2
Joshua - 1

The others aren't worthy of being mentioned. Although the likes of Frank Sanchez and Tony Yoka can become major players in relatively close future.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 14:50

Coco wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:20

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:00

Agreed, I’m not sold on Tyson being an ATG myself, yet. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe would all do him for me. Vitali and Wlad at their best also. He is very very good at what he does tho. No shame getting beat off those names.

I’d pick Usyk to our point him also. Joshua has a chance, or did have when he was mentally all there. I see him now in videos and I feel his heads gone. His new team is a load of bollox as well.

I'm going to disagree, while his record doesn't stack up due to lack of dance partners, I would fancy him against anyone, a fighter so big who really know how to use it, has plan a-z too.

I’m halfway between the two of you I think

I think Fury is, like, a ‘matchup ATG’ because of his size and movement combination- and scale him down to 6’5 or something and he’d just be even quicker- those things combined with the boxing brain and versatility make him a nightmare for nearly anyone

I agree with Tom I think that a few of the slightly smaller ATG’s, Lewis certainly, id start as favourite, probably not Bowe for my money though. I think he’d beat any version of Wlad 7/10 times but Vitalis size strength and persistence would make for a close and hard fight.

I actually think the smaller-still greats, Holyfield certainly and quite possibly someone like Usyk, have it easier with Tyson than most do. If I had to fight Tyson I would want to be the quicker man and better mover. I think that negates his major asset even above his size.

There’s a few more guys I’d put ahead of him as well I was just meaning from the recent past. He’s the best supersized heavy. He’s also learned on the job well, he’s now the best he’s ever been right at the end of his career.

With his well documented mental health and drink and drugs problems he’s had a strange stop start career. I’d respect his decision to retire of course but no way does he rate with Ali, Louis, Foreman, Holyfield, Etc if he does.

Like you say he’s a good chance with anyone head to head due to his attributes.