BoxRec

Do we get to vote on Ortiz?
Technically, he is active again, and he was removed from the rankings and excluded from the voting based on inactivity...

oh, @Ruthless-RKO, minor discrepancy, but Usyk is fighting #3

Finkel wrote: ↑22 Jan 2024, 00:34 Do we get to vote on Ortiz?
Technically, he is active again, and he was removed from the rankings and excluded from the voting based on inactivity...

oh, @Ruthless-RKO, minor discrepancy, but Usyk is fighting #3

Anyone who has Ortiz ranked needs their head checked.

joshj909 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2024, 04:01

Finkel wrote: ↑22 Jan 2024, 00:34 Do we get to vote on Ortiz?
Technically, he is active again, and he was removed from the rankings and excluded from the voting based on inactivity...

oh, @Ruthless-RKO, minor discrepancy, but Usyk is fighting #3

Anyone who has Ortiz ranked needs their head checked.

Yeh, he's staying out. Even that low key win isn't gonna get him back in. Everyone in the top 15 has had a decent last opponent.. (apart from Hrgovic)

Playing devil's advocate

We have Wilder at #12 who was similarly delisted by us due to inactivity and whose last performance I could only describe as "anti-boxing" it was so bad

There are other people who are ranked with worse resumes than Ortiz and wouldn't be guaranteed to beat him.

Ortiz was dropped for inactivity, but he is clearly active again. So shouldnt we count his in ring performance of say the last 3-4 years? And whilst I don't go off Boxrec rankings, I know you use them when you write up who is fighting who, and Ortiz has been reranked at #10 by them. Then throw in how everyone keeps telling me how he nearly beat Ruiz Jr. (I disagree) and it doesn't seem all that outlandish to vote on his inclusion.

But sure then again, as you say, the quality of opposition this time doesn't warrant a vote. That's cool

I part agree that with an arbitrary off the list policy once you get past that it should be a vote…

but Ortiz clearly will not join, so why waste ruthys time.

I personally think you should have to beat a top 50 (minnnnnimum top 100 to get a vote).

gregregegg wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 04:10 I part agree that with an arbitrary off the list policy once you get past that it should be a vote…

but Ortiz clearly will not join, so why waste ruthys time.

I personally think you should have to beat a top 50 (minnnnnimum top 100 to get a vote).

Also, at least Wilder fought a ranked boxer. Ortiz didn’t.

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 03:38 Playing devil's advocate

We have Wilder at #12 who was similarly delisted by us due to inactivity and whose last performance I could only describe as "anti-boxing" it was so bad

There are other people who are ranked with worse resumes than Ortiz and wouldn't be guaranteed to beat him.

Ortiz was dropped for inactivity, but he is clearly active again. So shouldnt we count his in ring performance of say the last 3-4 years? And whilst I don't go off Boxrec rankings, I know you use them when you write up who is fighting who, and Ortiz has been reranked at #10 by them. Then throw in how everyone keeps telling me how he nearly beat Ruiz Jr. (I disagree) and it doesn't seem all that outlandish to vote on his inclusion.

But sure then again, as you say, the quality of opposition this time doesn't warrant a vote. That's cool

Worse resume than Ortiz? Last 6 years.
Francisco Cordero - W
Ruiz Jr - L
Charles Martin - W
Alexander Flores - W
Deontay Wilder - L
Christian Hammer - W
Travis Kauffman - W
Razvan Cojanu - W
Deontay Wilder - L

Otto Wallin ranked 15th resume:
Anthony Joshua - L
Murat Gassiev - W
Helaman Olguín - W
Rydell Booker - W
Kamil Sokolowski - W
Dominic Breazeale - W
Travis Kauffman - W
Tyson Fury - L
Adrian Grant - W
Sedan Govedarica - W

Wilder for comparison over the past 6 years has:
Parker - L
Helenius - W
Fury - L
Fury - L
Ortiz - W
Breazeale - W
Fury - D
Ortiz - W

You're basically comparing Charles Martin to Gassiev or Luis Ortiz himself even though Ortiz vs Martin was 2 years ago and Ortiz got dropped twice.

Plus, most people look at the record of the last 2-3 years depending on opposition so Ortiz would only have Charles Martin, Ruiz (L) and Cordero. However, 3-4 years as you mentioned includes a loss to Wilder himself.

For what it's worth I voted Wilder at 15th, just don't think Ortiz is even in the top 20.

Wow, Luis Ortiz is insanely popular here.
Or is it some kind of soft trolling?

hmm...maybe...soft trolling

I don't particularly rate him, but I am also trying to be fair to him. But I can definitely see where others are coming from.

But then again, we have Ajagba at #14 who doesn't even have a win of Charles Martin's calibre and has a loss to Sanchez.
Jared Anderson at #13 whose own big win was a step-up fight against Charles Martin. A performance so shaky that Top Rank pumped the breaks on his progress.

But I agree with what you are all saying, fighting a guy who is unranked shouldn't be enough to trigger a vote for re-entry. Maybe he should have fought a debutant MMA guy instead.

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:05 hmm...maybe...soft trolling

I don't particularly rate him, but I am also trying to be fair to him. But I can definitely see where others are coming from.

But then again, we have Ajagba at #14 who doesn't even have a win of Charles Martin's calibre and has a loss to Sanchez.
Jared Anderson at #13 whose own big win was a step-up fight against Charles Martin. A performance so shaky that Top Rank pumped the breaks on his progress.

But I agree with what you are all saying, fighting a guy who is unranked shouldn't be enough to trigger a vote for re-entry. Maybe he should have fought a debutant MMA guy instead.

Ajagba: Demirezen is better than Martin (he beat the guy that beat Martin). Goodall and Kossobutskiy arguably as well.

Anderson: Also beat Martin but has a win over Arias to supplement that and again is arguably better than Martin.

Fury's rank is propped up by wins over Chisora (top 20) and Whyte (top 5/10) over the past 2 years rather than the MMA debutant.

Keep trying

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 03:38 Playing devil's advocate

We have Wilder at #12 who was similarly delisted by us due to inactivity and whose last performance I could only describe as "anti-boxing" it was so bad

There are other people who are ranked with worse resumes than Ortiz and wouldn't be guaranteed to beat him.

Ortiz was dropped for inactivity, but he is clearly active again. So shouldnt we count his in ring performance of say the last 3-4 years? And whilst I don't go off Boxrec rankings, I know you use them when you write up who is fighting who, and Ortiz has been reranked at #10 by them. Then throw in how everyone keeps telling me how he nearly beat Ruiz Jr. (I disagree) and it doesn't seem all that outlandish to vote on his inclusion.

But sure then again, as you say, the quality of opposition this time doesn't warrant a vote. That's cool

Wilders was always ranked because of his 2 wins against prime Ortiz 5-6 years ago. He is 44 years old now. We could start a poll to put him behind wilder on #13/14/15.

But I doubt anyone is gone put him above Wallin, who has a recent win against a former Cruiserweight champion and his only 2 career loses are against 2 boxers ranked inside our top 3.

If they’d put Ortiz vs Wallin on some Saudi undercard my money would be on Wallin.

joshj909 wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:35

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:05 hmm...maybe...soft trolling

I don't particularly rate him, but I am also trying to be fair to him. But I can definitely see where others are coming from.

But then again, we have Ajagba at #14 who doesn't even have a win of Charles Martin's calibre and has a loss to Sanchez.
Jared Anderson at #13 whose own big win was a step-up fight against Charles Martin. A performance so shaky that Top Rank pumped the breaks on his progress.

But I agree with what you are all saying, fighting a guy who is unranked shouldn't be enough to trigger a vote for re-entry. Maybe he should have fought a debutant MMA guy instead.

Ajagba: Demirezen is better than Martin (he beat the guy that beat Martin). Goodall and Kossobutskiy arguably as well.

Anderson: Also beat Martin but has a win over Arias to supplement that and again is arguably better than Martin.

Fury's rank is propped up by wins over Chisora (top 20) and Whyte (top 5/10) over the past 2 years rather than the MMA debutant.

Keep trying

Kownacki is a feather in no ones cap after those two losses to Helenius. He was already Finnished.

And nah, you can't be giving Ajagba the Kossobutsky DQ as some kind of legitimate win, that whole fight was a disgrace from start to finish. Absolute smash and grab job by Top Rank with a bent ref looking the other way

As for Arias a better win at HW than Martin? behave.
Sure at that point Martin knew his role was not to upset the apple cart against Anderson, but Arias got stopped with ease because he was what he was: a cruiserweight with a nice looking record to knock over.

That is to say these "wins" are obviously below the version of Martin, who in his last roll of the dice at relevancy, was stopped by Ortiz.

As for Fury, lets see what he has left come Feb. But it doesn't sound good given the sparring camp rumours surrounding Opetaia.

In summary, Ortiz even at 40-something+++ is still a handful, as Martin and Ruiz Jr. both found out. It is a shame he fell foul of Wilder's A-side privilege in both title fights. Maybe he could squeeze into the top 15, but I see ageism is rearing it's ugly head again

JonnyKupfer wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 10:02

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 03:38 Playing devil's advocate

We have Wilder at #12 who was similarly delisted by us due to inactivity and whose last performance I could only describe as "anti-boxing" it was so bad

There are other people who are ranked with worse resumes than Ortiz and wouldn't be guaranteed to beat him.

Ortiz was dropped for inactivity, but he is clearly active again. So shouldnt we count his in ring performance of say the last 3-4 years? And whilst I don't go off Boxrec rankings, I know you use them when you write up who is fighting who, and Ortiz has been reranked at #10 by them. Then throw in how everyone keeps telling me how he nearly beat Ruiz Jr. (I disagree) and it doesn't seem all that outlandish to vote on his inclusion.

But sure then again, as you say, the quality of opposition this time doesn't warrant a vote. That's cool

Wilders was always ranked because of his 2 wins against prime Ortiz 5-6 years ago. He is 44 years old now. We could start a poll to put him behind wilder on #13/14/15.

But I doubt anyone is gone put him above Wallin, who has a recent win against a former Cruiserweight champion and his only 2 career loses are against 2 boxers ranked inside our top 3.

If they’d put Ortiz vs Wallin on some Saudi undercard my money would be on Wallin.

Fair points, but regarding Wallin, that could be because he didn't really fight any contenders. He has wins over fringe contenders (Breazeale and Gassiev) and losses to the elite. I think Ortiz v Wallin would be an interesting fight actually. I doubt PBC would make it though, they probably need some warm bodies to fill those Amazon prime cards

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 11:27

joshj909 wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:35

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:05 hmm...maybe...soft trolling

I don't particularly rate him, but I am also trying to be fair to him. But I can definitely see where others are coming from.

But then again, we have Ajagba at #14 who doesn't even have a win of Charles Martin's calibre and has a loss to Sanchez.
Jared Anderson at #13 whose own big win was a step-up fight against Charles Martin. A performance so shaky that Top Rank pumped the breaks on his progress.

But I agree with what you are all saying, fighting a guy who is unranked shouldn't be enough to trigger a vote for re-entry. Maybe he should have fought a debutant MMA guy instead.

Ajagba: Demirezen is better than Martin (he beat the guy that beat Martin). Goodall and Kossobutskiy arguably as well.

Anderson: Also beat Martin but has a win over Arias to supplement that and again is arguably better than Martin.

Fury's rank is propped up by wins over Chisora (top 20) and Whyte (top 5/10) over the past 2 years rather than the MMA debutant.

Keep trying

Kownacki is a feather in no ones cap after those two losses to Helenius. He was already Finnished.

And nah, you can't be giving Ajagba the Kossobutsky DQ as some kind of legitimate win, that whole fight was a disgrace from start to finish. Absolute smash and grab job by Top Rank with a bent ref looking the other way

As for Arias a better win at HW than Martin? behave.
Sure at that point Martin knew his role was not to upset the apple cart against Anderson, but Arias got stopped with ease because he was what he was: a cruiserweight with a nice looking record to knock over.

That is to say these "wins" are obviously below the version of Martin, who in his last roll of the dice at relevancy, was stopped by Ortiz.

As for Fury, lets see what he has left come Feb. But it doesn't sound good given the sparring camp rumours surrounding Opetaia.

In summary, Ortiz even at 40-something+++ is still a handful, as Martin and Ruiz Jr. both found out. It is a shame he fell foul of Wilder's A-side privilege in both title fights. Maybe he could squeeze into the top 15, but I see ageism is rearing it's ugly head again

So Martin is a better scalp than Kownacki, who beat Martin and beat nobody relevant inbetween fights? You are dismissed from your role as devil's advocate.

In my opinion there are ~15 guys I would consider voting in after beating a solid opponent. (sorted by age)

Huni 24
Wardley 29
Jalolov 29
Franklin 30
Gassiev 30
Makhmudov 34
Ruiz 34
Hunter 35
Whyte 35
Ngannou 37
Chisora 40
Helenius 40
Pulev 42
Takam 43
Ortiz 44

With the exception of the 40+ aged ones. I would only vote them in if they beat someone inside our Top 15 or Whyte/Ruiz.

joshj909 wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 12:14

Finkel wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 11:27

joshj909 wrote: ↑23 Jan 2024, 08:35

Ajagba: Demirezen is better than Martin (he beat the guy that beat Martin). Goodall and Kossobutskiy arguably as well.

Anderson: Also beat Martin but has a win over Arias to supplement that and again is arguably better than Martin.

Fury's rank is propped up by wins over Chisora (top 20) and Whyte (top 5/10) over the past 2 years rather than the MMA debutant.

Keep trying

Kownacki is a feather in no ones cap after those two losses to Helenius. He was already Finnished.

And nah, you can't be giving Ajagba the Kossobutsky DQ as some kind of legitimate win, that whole fight was a disgrace from start to finish. Absolute smash and grab job by Top Rank with a bent ref looking the other way

As for Arias a better win at HW than Martin? behave.
Sure at that point Martin knew his role was not to upset the apple cart against Anderson, but Arias got stopped with ease because he was what he was: a cruiserweight with a nice looking record to knock over.

That is to say these "wins" are obviously below the version of Martin, who in his last roll of the dice at relevancy, was stopped by Ortiz.

As for Fury, lets see what he has left come Feb. But it doesn't sound good given the sparring camp rumours surrounding Opetaia.

In summary, Ortiz even at 40-something+++ is still a handful, as Martin and Ruiz Jr. both found out. It is a shame he fell foul of Wilder's A-side privilege in both title fights. Maybe he could squeeze into the top 15, but I see ageism is rearing it's ugly head again

So Martin is a better scalp than Kownacki, who beat Martin and beat nobody relevant inbetween fights? You are dismissed from your role as devil's advocate.

Woah there! There is quite a bit wrong with that statement.

Sure, Kownacki was a better scalp for the next guy to beat him i.e. Helenius. (not Demirezen).
Helenius absolutely broke Kownacki: cracking his chin in the first fight, and even breaking his will to compete in the second.

Kownacki - Martin - Washington - Helenius
were all beating each other because styles make fights. You might recall we were having difficulty with where to rank them against each other. Demirezen wasn't even in the conversation.

Kownacki stopped Washington
Kownacki then puts in a career best performance against Martin beating him by a round in a fight of the year candidate (so sure, at that time Kownacki was just ahead of Martin)
Washinton then KO'd Helenius (making Washington relevant again)
Martin then KO'd Washinton (then Demirezen stops Washington)
After which, Helenius stops Kownacki x 2 (then Demirezen wins a UD against Kownacki who even Joe Cusamano stops in his next fight)

Demirezen did nothing of relevance except feasting on those PBC leftovers. The worst kind of stale leftovers (Ajagba cough cough).

And, notably, it was Martin who finished the above four-man series on his feet. It took King Kong Ortiz to stop him.

vote vote vote

Current ranking:
Oleksandr Usyk - 21(14) 0 0 - next fight: 18.05.2024 vs. Tyson Fury - 34(24) 0 1 - (#2)

2. Anthony Joshua - 27(24) 3(1) 0 - next fight: 08.03.2024 vs. Francis Ngannou - 0 1(0) 0 - (Boxrec's #32)

3. Tyson Fury - 34(24) 0 1 - next fight: 18.05.2024 vs. Oleksandr Usyk - 21(14) 0 0 - ()

4. Zhilei Zhang - 24(21) 1(0) 1 - next fight: 08.03.2024 vs. Joseph Parker - 34(23) 3(1) 0 - (#6)

5. Filip Hrgovic - 17(14) 0 0 - next fight: TBA

6. Joseph Parker - 34(23) 3(1) 0 - next fight: 08.03.2024 vs. Zhilei Zhang - 24(21) 1(0) 1 - (#4)

7. Joe Joyce - 15(14) 2(2) 0 - next fight: 16.03.2024 vs. Kash Ali - 21(12) 2(0) 0 - (Boxrec's #180)

8. Agit Kabayel - 24(16) 0(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

9. Frank Sanchez - 24(17) 0 0 - next fight: TBA

10. Daniel Dubois - 20(19) 2(2) 0 - next fight: TBA

11. Martin Bakole - 20(15) 1(1) 0 - next fight: TBA

12. Deontay Wilder - 43(42) 3(2) 1 - next fight: TBA

13. Jared Anderson - 16(15) 0 0 - next fight: TBA

14. Efe Ajagba - 19(14) 1(0) 0 - next fight: TBA

15. Otto Wallin - 26(14) 2(1) 0 - next fight: TBA

Upcoming Heavyweight Fights

31.03.2023 - Fabio Wardley - 17(16) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #29) vs. Frazer Clarke - 8(6) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #35)

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 07:32 Upcoming Heavyweight Fights

31.03.2023 - Fabio Wardley - 17(16) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #29) vs. Frazer Clarke - 8(6) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #35)

No impact.

oogiebe wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 17:01

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 07:32 Upcoming Heavyweight Fights

31.03.2023 - Fabio Wardley - 17(16) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #29) vs. Frazer Clarke - 8(6) 0 0 - (Boxrec's #35)

No impact.

Wardley is pretty close for me already but he's only been cleaning out British level guys. This fight might age well for him if he wins but I'm not entirely sure Clarke does enough for his resume in terms of taking it to the next level. Weirdly enough, if Clarke wins though, that's a pretty good scalp on paper...

Wardley was ranked at #19 by us in this thread.
And I think ranked at #16 just before Day of Reckoning.
Depending on his performance there may room for him at the bottom end of our rankings...

what's up with huni fighting cruiserweights?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 04:23 what's up with huni fighting cruiserweights?

I'm guessing his team has no immediate intention for him to step up given his age. They are reasonably skilled opponents but not big enough. I guess getting bigger opponents of lower skill will be the next step.

Good fight for huni if true. This is a pretty big step up Kev nearly skittles DDD, then had a good win over that Belgium heavy.

Ex cruiserwoghts are often the best opponents that don’t cost a billion dollars. Kev been a heavy for about 7 fights now so pretty established as a heavyweight now.

Would rather huni vs a big stiff idiot but kevs a solid fight.