BoxRec

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:12

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 14:36 It's weird and I know just me, but I find it pitiful Usyk is being mentioned in the same breath as Holyfield at heavy. Just a massive is he fornicate in the same league as EH and very fortunate neither is AJ or TF.

how is Usyk fortunate?

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

holyfield lost to mike moorer, wars with bert cooper, dokes, qawi....................vaughn bean won rounds vs him and went the distance. ancient holmes and foreman too. he was great but not so great that usyk wouldve been a walk in the park, arse handed to him battering

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:22

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:12

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 14:36 It's weird and I know just me, but I find it pitiful Usyk is being mentioned in the same breath as Holyfield at heavy. Just a massive is he fornicate in the same league as EH and very fortunate neither is AJ or TF.

how is Usyk fortunate?

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

that is an opinion, not fact. Evander never won an Olympic gold, and never unified as HW, despite being a massive steroid abuser and dirty fighter. Usyk has done both.

I think he means that Holyfield beat Tyson twice, Bowe once and got a draw (albeit disputed) against Lewis so is a legit top 10 HW.

Whereas Usyk has beaten Fury and Joshua at HW.................not exactly the same.

That said Usyk has beaten what has been put in front of him, probably the best two of this generation.

NazNaci1 wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 15:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 12:54 Bowe was a missed opportunity - his lack of discipline hurt his career, although I would say, he relied a bit too much on his ability to take a shot, which probably also shortened his career. He had a great skillset though. He was a naturally big man, with power in both hands, nice combination punching, and a great inside game, he had a great all around game.

Usyk won't be around at heavy long enough to be considered for ATG status at heavyweight, but he's an ATG fighter without a doubt.

For sure. An ATG and a fabulous fighter who has proved his worth again and again. However, as you say and which I do agree with, just not at HW.

Some disagree and that's ok. I get it.

I don't think anybody disagrees with it, but they may disagree with him being considered an ATG at heavyweight. His career there is very brief. If he managed to defend the belt a few times, and one of those younger challengers goes on to become an impressive champion later on, a-la Mayweather and Canelo, then that could change the complexion.

I know he has stated he intends to carry on fighting until he is 40 - so it is still possible, if he has another 4 maybe 5 fights and remains champion. I can see him being beatable at the weight, someone like Parker might give him a lot of problems due to his skillset for instance.

I look forward to seeing how the end of his career pans out. He has to get past Fury in a rematch first of course, and that's no given, seeing how close the fight was on the cards.

dr_devious wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 17:41 I think he means that Holyfield beat Tyson twice, Bowe once and got a draw (albeit disputed) against Lewis so is a legit top 10 HW.

Whereas Usyk has beaten Fury and Joshua at HW.................not exactly the same.

That said Usyk has beaten what has been put in front of him, probably the best two of this generation.

Thing is Holyfield had quite a few notable wins over top contenders and also destroyed Tyson. The fights with Lewis in some ways cemented his greatness, even though the first fight he should have lost, he gave a peak Lewis a hell of a lot of trouble in both bouts when past his own formidable prime, turned back a surging Foreman in a really great fight. Mercer and Alex Stewart were also good wins, as were Cooper, Holmes and Douglas, to a lesser extent for different reasons.

I think Holyfield is judged unduly positively. He was a massive PED abuser. Just because Usyk's HW career was briefer isn't in Evander's favour for me. He lost to John Ruiz....

Usyk has beaten everyone in front of him. Never been a dirty fighter and never been close to losing. He's unified the division. Two divisions.

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 17:57 I think Holyfield is judged unduly positively. He was a massive PED abuser. Just because Usyk's HW career was briefer isn't in Evander's favour for me. He lost to John Ruiz....

Usyk has beaten everyone in front of him. Never been a dirty fighter and never been close to losing. He's unified the division. Two divisions.

At least one of his losses to Ruiz was pretty dubious as I recall, and to be fair to Evander, he wouldn;t have been the only one juicing, and no amount of peds can put muscles on your chin.

I love Usyk, I've virtually got a man-crush on him, but I think Evander's still some way ahead of Usyk in my estimation. It wasn't peds enabled him to smash the shite out of Tyson.

They are both great fighters, without a doubt. We can all agree on that.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 18:05

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 17:57 I think Holyfield is judged unduly positively. He was a massive PED abuser. Just because Usyk's HW career was briefer isn't in Evander's favour for me. He lost to John Ruiz....

Usyk has beaten everyone in front of him. Never been a dirty fighter and never been close to losing. He's unified the division. Two divisions.

At least one of his losses to Ruiz was pretty dubious as I recall, and to be fair to Evander, he wouldn;t have been the only one juicing, and no amount of peds can put muscles on your chin.

I love Usyk, I've virtually got a man-crush on him, but I think Evander's still some way ahead of Usyk in my estimation. It wasn't peds enabled him to smash the shite out of Tyson.

They are both great fighters, without a doubt. We can all agree on that.

Amen to that.

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 18:14

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 18:05

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 17:57 I think Holyfield is judged unduly positively. He was a massive PED abuser. Just because Usyk's HW career was briefer isn't in Evander's favour for me. He lost to John Ruiz....

Usyk has beaten everyone in front of him. Never been a dirty fighter and never been close to losing. He's unified the division. Two divisions.

At least one of his losses to Ruiz was pretty dubious as I recall, and to be fair to Evander, he wouldn;t have been the only one juicing, and no amount of peds can put muscles on your chin.

I love Usyk, I've virtually got a man-crush on him, but I think Evander's still some way ahead of Usyk in my estimation. It wasn't peds enabled him to smash the shite out of Tyson.

They are both great fighters, without a doubt. We can all agree on that.

Amen to that.

Blessed to be around in the eras of both of them, both overachieved at HW, and won against bigger and naturally stronger men.

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 17:25

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:22

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:12

how is Usyk fortunate?

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

that is an opinion, not fact.

That’s a moot and silly point, of course I cannot make it fact. Conversely, neither can anyone else opposing my view, which includes you.

We’re taking two incomparable landscapes here, Holy’s landscape was stacked to the gills and then we have Usyk’s endeavours.

Folk are trying to underpin Holy’s poorer performances and then via pure negligence shelving the Del Boy and Dubois fights of Usyk, they were sh!t and against sh!tter opposition too.

I’d take Holyfield over Usyk at Cruiser, which I can see being considered contentious. I don’t see any contention in taking Holy over Usyk at heavy.

usyk won pretty much everything vs dubois , the low blow is such fake drama

i didnt give del boy anything after the third

and of course neither smashed up usyk. nor did holyfield smash a boxer as skilled and fit as usyk

many fighters worse than usyk didnt get trashed by holyfield either. some much much worse, like vaughn f@cking bean, took rounds and went the distance. id also rate usyk above moorer, who actually beat holyfield. people get so over the top in cross era comparisons. like they pick some extreme outcome where one guy batters the other in order to make a statement about how the generations compare. id guess holyfield with his greater strength and educated pressure win a clear but competitive deicision

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 02:46 usyk won pretty much everything vs dubois , the low blow is such fake drama

i didnt give del boy anything after the third

and of course neither smashed up usyk. nor did holyfield smash a boxer as skilled and fit as usyk

many fighters worse than usyk didnt get trashed by holyfield either. some much much worse, like vaughn f@cking bean, took rounds and went the distance. id also rate usyk above moorer, who actually beat holyfield. people get so over the top in cross era comparisons. like they pick some extreme outcome where one guy batters the other in order to make a statement about how the generations compare. id guess holyfield with his greater strength and educated pressure win a clear but competitive deicision

I rewatched Usyk vs Dirty Daniel Dubios recently and concentrated all the illegal blows. There were a lot.

I think the idea that anybody would destroy Usyk is really fcking stupid. He's too good to get turned over.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 08:24 I think the idea that anybody would destroy Usyk is really fcking stupid. He's too good to get turned over.

That's how I feel about anyone who's never been down. When someone predicts they're gonna lose inside the distance, I'm like, based on what?

Compared to Holyfield too, he really isn't actually small.
Couple inches taller, and a lot sturdier built. Usyk has quite thick legs - nobody yet has looked able to overpower him. And it could be argued AJ being as strong at least as Lennox.

tonyevs wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 08:44 Compared to Holyfield too, he really isn't actually small.
Couple inches taller, and a lot sturdier built. Usyk has quite thick legs - nobody yet has looked able to overpower him. And it could be argued AJ being as strong at least as Lennox.

Yeah I noticed that, Usyk is really barrell chested, and his legs are much bigger than Evanders. Evanders calves in particular were very small.

Only person who destroys Usyk at heavy is the Burger King James Toney.

Are you suggesting the morphology of someone is pertinent to fighting prowess?

You boys must be besides yourself with fear when entering a boozer with roided up muscular beefcakes.

TBA wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:06 Only person who destroys Usyk at heavy is the Burger King James Toney.

I agree. Usyk's just beaten a fat PED cheat, so there's no reason he couldn't beat another.

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:22

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:12

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 14:36 It's weird and I know just me, but I find it pitiful Usyk is being mentioned in the same breath as Holyfield at heavy. Just a massive is he fornicate in the same league as EH and very fortunate neither is AJ or TF.

how is Usyk fortunate?

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

You mean The Juiced To The Gills League?

I love Holyfield, but let’s bring it back down to Earth.

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:24

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:22

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:12

how is Usyk fortunate?

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

You mean The Juiced To The Gills League?

I love Holyfield, but let’s bring it back down to Earth.

Why are folk so put out that I’d favour Holyfield over Usyk, and some?

EDIT: and I don't love Holyfield, dirty bastard of a fighter.

The Docker wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:27

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:24

The Docker wrote: ↑22 May 2024, 16:22

Because if AJ or TF had've been in the same league as EH he'd have had his arsehole handed to him.

You mean The Juiced To The Gills League?

I love Holyfield, but let’s bring it back down to Earth.

Why are folk so put out that I’d favour Holyfield over Usyk, and some?

EDIT: and I don't love Holyfield, dirty bastard of a fighter.

It is the fact that you are not taking into account the full circumstances of the eras.

It is like not taking into account the fact that Barry Bonds was notoriously juiced when discussing his homerun record in Major League Baseball. There needs to be an asterisk on that whole sports era.

IF AJ and Fury had been juiced in Holyfield’s league they quite literally may have knocked him out of the park. I don’t even want to imagine what a roided Usyk might do to people in the ring.

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:37

The Docker wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:27

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:24

You mean The Juiced To The Gills League?

I love Holyfield, but let’s bring it back down to Earth.

Why are folk so put out that I’d favour Holyfield over Usyk, and some?

EDIT: and I don't love Holyfield, dirty bastard of a fighter.

IF AJ and Fury had been juiced in Holyfield’s league they quite literally may have knocked him out of the park. I don’t even want to imagine what a roided Usyk might do to people in the ring.

And you definitely know they’ve not touched a drop, how?

The Docker wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:40

ironbeard wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:37

The Docker wrote: ↑23 May 2024, 09:27
Why are folk so put out that I’d favour Holyfield over Usyk, and some?

EDIT: and I don't love Holyfield, dirty bastard of a fighter.

IF AJ and Fury had been juiced in Holyfield’s league they quite literally may have knocked him out of the park. I don’t even want to imagine what a roided Usyk might do to people in the ring.

And you definitely know they’ve not touched a drop, how?

I know that Holyfield would not have gotten away with the he was doing in this era.

I still love Holyfield, as well as Bonds, but the era needs its asterisk.