Yes, because that was considered Heavyweight at that time.
And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..
The point is that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents were factually more of heavyweights than Marciano's "heavyweight" cruiserweight opponents were. Which means you have to include Usyk's CW opponents or exclude Marciano's CW opponents, of which, 46 out of 49 were.
Re: Usyk in the all-time Heavyweight ranking
Posted: 26 May 2024, 04:51
by apollo creed
gilgamesh wrote: ↑25 May 2024, 16:54
It would be interesting to see how a loss to Fury in the rematch would affect how Usyk is currently viewed. Some people would rate him lower simply for losing the 0, but if it's another close decision that this time goes Fury's way I don't think that would be a loss that would really lower his standing much.
A one sided beatdown would I suppose, but I'd be pretty surprised if it went down like that.
Who knows maybe Usyk will still be fighting in 2030 and surprise us all.
If Usyk retires now, he is in the very select ATG club next with great champions like Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Wlad. Also Usyk unifying the all major HW titles at 37 y/o , makes him the oldest undisputed HW champion in the boxing history!
Lackeos wrote: ↑24 May 2024, 21:54
And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..
The point is that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents were factually more of heavyweights than Marciano's "heavyweight" cruiserweight opponents were. Which means you have to include Usyk's CW opponents or exclude Marciano's CW opponents, of which, 46 out of 49 were.
Yup.
Usyk, Gassiev, Huck and Briedis are pretty much like the HW's from the 50's, size wise.
The last 50 years takes us back to Muhammad Ali and his win in Zaire.
So we've got Ali, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko's, and Tyson Fury.
That's the list of names of guys that have won either universal or widely accepted lineage as THE Heavyweight Champion. Usyk rates above both of the Spinks brothers, and certainly Vitali. He undoubtedly has a better career than Buster Douglas, Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe.
He has 3 wins better than any win on Mike Tyson's record.
He beat Tyson Fury head to head so he'd have to rate above him.
That leaves only Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko as the company he's in.
None of the titleholders who didn't gain universal recognition as Heavyweight Champion can hold a candle to Usyk so they're not worth a mention here.
Very good analogy. End of the story. Quality over quantity. People forget that Usyk is an older fighter than Fury and AJ!
Also I think some people can't accept that an eastern european fighter is the unified HW champion of the world.
Nostalgia merchants
Re: Usyk in the all-time Heavyweight ranking
Posted: 26 May 2024, 13:28
by Cojimar 1946
DrDuke wrote: ↑25 May 2024, 00:04
I'd place Usyk in the top 10. I can't see him higher Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson.
I'm not sold on the long streaks of Louis and Klitschko, those were in a comparably weak eras.
40 years from now people will probably claim the current era was weak
DrDuke wrote: ↑25 May 2024, 00:04
I'd place Usyk in the top 10. I can't see him higher Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson.
I'm not sold on the long streaks of Louis and Klitschko, those were in a comparably weak eras.
40 years from now people will probably claim the current era was weak
You'll have both just like now. Some people insist that the Legends of the Past were 10 feet tall and bulletproof, and the modern guys couldn't beat 'em in a Million Years.
Some fans think Science has advanced so greatly that all those old codgers would be hopelessly outmatched by the more modern fighters.
Lackeos wrote: ↑24 May 2024, 21:54
And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..
The point is that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents were factually more of heavyweights than Marciano's "heavyweight" cruiserweight opponents were. Which means you have to include Usyk's CW opponents or exclude Marciano's CW opponents, of which, 46 out of 49 were.
That's a silly argument because the size of heavyweights keeps increasing. One day Fury and AJ may be just super cruiserweights. At that point I guess Usyk's heavyweight resume suddenly disappears because they are no longer heavyweights.
We already have guys exclusively fighting at cruiserweight as big as Ali and Holmes
Lackeos wrote: ↑24 May 2024, 21:54
And the considerations of that time affect the reality of pounds and inches how?
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..
The point is that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents were factually more of heavyweights than Marciano's "heavyweight" cruiserweight opponents were. Which means you have to include Usyk's CW opponents or exclude Marciano's CW opponents, of which, 46 out of 49 were.
This is the kind of stuff that makes comparing across eras, so difficult.
Heavyweight is what it was.... which is different than what it is now.... but it is all called "Heavyweight" regardless of when it happened. Trying to make some hybrid scenario out of this just confuses things even more. Cruiserweights also have to make a division limit, which makes this kind of talk feel even stranger.
If you're trying to make a point, I'm not following..
The point is that Usyk's cruiserweight opponents were factually more of heavyweights than Marciano's "heavyweight" cruiserweight opponents were. Which means you have to include Usyk's CW opponents or exclude Marciano's CW opponents, of which, 46 out of 49 were.
This is the kind of stuff that makes comparing across eras, so difficult.
Heavyweight is what it was.... which is different than what it is now.... but it is all called "Heavyweight" regardless of when it happened. Trying to make some hybrid scenario out of this just confuses things even more. Cruiserweights also have to make a division limit, which makes this kind of talk feel even stranger.
Yeah. Every Cruiserweight of today would have a built in 10 pound advantage over all the Cruiserweights of the 80's and 90's because they expanded the weight limit from 190 pounds to 200 pounds.
