Joe Louis vs Larry Holmes

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 11 Dec 2005, 19:38

RazorKO wrote:
Very true Collins. He likes to make fun of Ruddock being stopped by Jaco despite Ruddock suffering an asthma attack in the middle of the ring and he likes to make fun of Coetzee where he was floored early in his career. But Walcott was starched by fat Abe Simon!

Abe Simon wasn't fat. He was a muscle bound freak.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Dec 2005, 21:17

evndrbsn wrote:
RazorKO wrote:
Very true Collins. He likes to make fun of Ruddock being stopped by Jaco despite Ruddock suffering an asthma attack in the middle of the ring and he likes to make fun of Coetzee where he was floored early in his career. But Walcott was starched by fat Abe Simon!
Abe Simon wasn't fat. He was a muscle bound freak.

dont worry, razor doesnt know boxing that far back. he is probably confusing abe simon with leroy jones.

I bet for a fact razor doesnt even know what happened in the walcot-simon fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Dec 2005, 21:19

o yes and whether i was very green or in my prime, i would rather get knocked out by a 6'4 255lb muscle freak than a 6'6 195lb skinny wimpy pancy.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 12 Dec 2005, 02:42

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:o yes and whether i was very green or in my prime, i would rather get knocked out by a 6'4 255lb muscle freak than a 6'6 195lb skinny wimpy pancy.

I second that

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 12 Dec 2005, 06:16

evndrbsn wrote:
RazorKO wrote:
Very true Collins. He likes to make fun of Ruddock being stopped by Jaco despite Ruddock suffering an asthma attack in the middle of the ring and he likes to make fun of Coetzee where he was floored early in his career. But Walcott was starched by fat Abe Simon!
Abe Simon wasn't fat. He was a muscle bound freak.

From the Joe Louis fight he looked fatter than James Coco.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 12 Dec 2005, 06:19

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
evndrbsn wrote:
RazorKO wrote:
Very true Collins. He likes to make fun of Ruddock being stopped by Jaco despite Ruddock suffering an asthma attack in the middle of the ring and he likes to make fun of Coetzee where he was floored early in his career. But Walcott was starched by fat Abe Simon!
Abe Simon wasn't fat. He was a muscle bound freak.

dont worry, razor doesnt know boxing that far back. he is probably confusing abe simon with leroy jones.

I bet for a fact razor doesnt even know what happened in the walcot-simon fight.

And I bet you didnt even know what happened in the Ruddock - Jaco fight until I told you and also you didnt know that Coetzee was floored by Sasse early in his career until you looked it up on boxrec. :)

Btw you still havent told me what combination Page used to knockout Coetzee so you can prove to me you watched the fight.

e.c.flurry · Post by **e.c.flurry** » 12 Dec 2005, 17:59

I forgot to quote but i saw someone stating that louis had problems with boxers which is true to a certain extent he was not slow footed or a plodding fighter as some think he just had a tendency to be more flatfooted to damaged people early so boxers got away with it at times (early in is career he shows pretty good footspeed)

he had problems with a same target in billy conn and the man with greatest footwork in the heavyweight division (jersey joe) and by then louis had the title like for 9 years and was starting (not yet) to decline he still catched them and ktfo.

Louis has the best chance of beating every top heavy out of all of the others.
Yes holmes would be a very tough matchup for him i would see holmes dancing around popping his awesome jab getting the early round but eventually getting hurt late in the fight and getting stopped (joe louis is the name of negating recup powers if you were hurt with him your done.)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 13 Dec 2005, 07:05

ken norton doesnt exactley have good footspeed, hes flatfooted yet he nearly beat holmes

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:35

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:ken norton doesnt exactley have good footspeed, hes flatfooted yet he nearly beat holmes

Abe Simon had the footwork of Frankenstein's monster but he still managed to KO Jersey Joe Walcott.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 14 Dec 2005, 14:53

Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:ken norton doesnt exactley have good footspeed, hes flatfooted yet he nearly beat holmes
Abe Simon had the footwork of Frankenstein's monster but he still managed to KO Jersey Joe Walcott.

no he didnt jersey joe walcott fell across the ring due to exahustion ane abe simon finished the dead tired slumped on the roes walcott with a punch who fell more from exhaustion rather than punch.

did i mention jersey joe walcott was well before his best and lost to abe simon 12 YEARS before he won the title.

walcott had won every round before walcott collasped in the 6th

o yes, and larry holmes was in his prime when he went even with norton, unlike walcott with simon

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 14 Dec 2005, 15:23

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:ken norton doesnt exactley have good footspeed, hes flatfooted yet he nearly beat holmes
Abe Simon had the footwork of Frankenstein's monster but he still managed to KO Jersey Joe Walcott.

no he didnt jersey joe walcott fell across the ring due to exahustion ane abe simon finished the dead tired slumped on the roes walcott with a punch who fell more from exhaustion rather than punch.

did i mention jersey joe walcott was well before his best and lost to abe simon 12 YEARS before he won the title.

walcott had won every round before walcott collasped in the 6th

o yes, and larry holmes was in his prime when he went even with norton, unlike walcott with simon

You have a copy of this bout Brocky?

Stopped by Abe Simon. That's fekkin brilliant!

mmm · Post by **mmm** » 14 Dec 2005, 15:53

I gotta go with Louis. I think it's close and goes the distance. I could see this being a slow fight. Holmes boxing defensively and Louis only able to do just enough to take the fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 14 Dec 2005, 16:43

Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote: Abe Simon had the footwork of Frankenstein's monster but he still managed to KO Jersey Joe Walcott.

no he didnt jersey joe walcott fell across the ring due to exahustion ane abe simon finished the dead tired slumped on the roes walcott with a punch who fell more from exhaustion rather than punch.

did i mention jersey joe walcott was well before his best and lost to abe simon 12 YEARS before he won the title.

walcott had won every round before walcott collasped in the 6th

o yes, and larry holmes was in his prime when he went even with norton, unlike walcott with simon

You have a copy of this bout Brocky?

Stopped by Abe Simon. That's fekkin brilliant!

yeah collins

isnt it amazing a young green inexperienced malnourished walcott taking the fight on 24 hr notice totally embarrased a big top ranked contender for 5 rounds before falling over due to exhaustion.

I have never seen the bout, but a historian who saw the bout live told me about it

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 14 Dec 2005, 17:38

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
no he didnt jersey joe walcott fell across the ring due to exahustion ane abe simon finished the dead tired slumped on the roes walcott with a punch who fell more from exhaustion rather than punch.

did i mention jersey joe walcott was well before his best and lost to abe simon 12 YEARS before he won the title.

walcott had won every round before walcott collasped in the 6th

o yes, and larry holmes was in his prime when he went even with norton, unlike walcott with simon

You have a copy of this bout Brocky?

Stopped by Abe Simon. That's fekkin brilliant!

yeah collins

isnt it amazing a young green inexperienced malnourished walcott taking the fight on 24 hr notice totally embarrased a big top ranked contender for 5 rounds before falling over due to exhaustion.

I have never seen the bout, but a historian who saw the bout live told me about it

A historian eh? Care to share his name with us? There are lots of self-proclaimed historians out there, Brocky. I'd like to make sure he is kosher.

Exhausted after 5 rounds? I thought those lads in the old B/W days were fekkin supermen?

Here's something to cheer you up. I watched some Marciano last night, highlights of course

. I've told you I rarely watch the old B/W stuff as the quality is very variable. Anyway, those blokes on here who were complaining about his hand speed would do well to watch a bit of it. His hands were pretty fast, especially considering they were coming from round his back or up from his knees. Fek, the leverage he was getting was quite stunning, no pun intended.

Oh, and here's a tip. Don't use two words that mean the same in the same sentence ie green and inexperienced.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 14 Dec 2005, 21:38

thanx collins,

I was wondering who do u think won holmes vs witherspoon??? what did u think about that fight?

i was very impressed with spoon that night. he had a lot of potential to be great.

collins, i feel one of the better 80s heavies was greg page, who i thought never reaches his full potential at all. he constantly doesnt get respect here, but i defintley feel he sure have been better than he was.

Here's something to cheer you up. I watched some Marciano last night, highlights of course Thumbs Up . I've told you I rarely watch the old B/W stuff as the quality is very variable. Anyway, those blokes on here who were complaining about his hand speed would do well to watch a bit of it. His hands were pretty fast, especially considering they were coming from round his back or up from his knees. Fek, the leverage he was getting was quite stunning, no pun intended.

u actually brought up a great point. i MYSELF used to be a critic of his handspeed, but then afdter anaylyzing some of his fights, u realize at times he had quite fast handspeed it seems. when he really wanted to his hands he threa pretty fast punches. I think a big reason was he had suvch a short reach that his punches didnt have to travel far to get there. its weird because somtimes it looks like he has slow handspeed and other times it doesnt. one thing for sure is he never had problems punching with people because he threw so many punches thus nullifying the speed. but marciano is just weird, eveything about his style is weird. we will never see another marciano. if another guy came into the gym looking like marciano today, he might be laughed out of the gym.

what fights did u watch of marciano?

Oh, and here's a tip. Don't use two words that mean the same in the same sentence ie green and inexperienced.

trying to put an extra empathis on the points

collins heres the jersey joe walcott quote from poster ted spoon a historian:

"The man ran out of steam because he never had any steam to begin with.

Walcott was a last minute 'call in' to face Simon. It was a crazy idea. Walcott needed a buck (as ever) and decided to take his chances against a nurtured n' dangerous contender. He had done absolutely no training.

Ted Spoon is amazed despite this 'Jersey' Joe was still beating Simon to the punch and snatched up the first 5 rounds only to find himself exhuasted and then he was caught because he was in no kind of condition. "

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 14 Dec 2005, 23:49

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:thanx collins,

I was wondering who do u think won holmes vs witherspoon??? what did u think about that fight?

i was very impressed with spoon that night. he had a lot of potential to be great.

collins, i feel one of the better 80s heavies was greg page, who i thought never reaches his full potential at all. he constantly doesnt get respect here, but i defintley feel he sure have been better than he was.

Here's something to cheer you up. I watched some Marciano last night, highlights of course Thumbs Up . I've told you I rarely watch the old B/W stuff as the quality is very variable. Anyway, those blokes on here who were complaining about his hand speed would do well to watch a bit of it. His hands were pretty fast, especially considering they were coming from round his back or up from his knees. Fek, the leverage he was getting was quite stunning, no pun intended.

u actually brought up a great point. i MYSELF used to be a critic of his handspeed, but then afdter anaylyzing some of his fights, u realize at times he had quite fast handspeed it seems. when he really wanted to his hands he threa pretty fast punches. I think a big reason was he had suvch a short reach that his punches didnt have to travel far to get there. its weird because somtimes it looks like he has slow handspeed and other times it doesnt. one thing for sure is he never had problems punching with people because he threw so many punches thus nullifying the speed. but marciano is just weird, eveything about his style is weird. we will never see another marciano. if another guy came into the gym looking like marciano today, he might be laughed out of the gym.

what fights did u watch of marciano?

Oh, and here's a tip. Don't use two words that mean the same in the same sentence ie green and inexperienced.
trying to put an extra empathis on the points

collins heres the jersey joe walcott quote from poster ted spoon a historian:

"The man ran out of steam because he never had any steam to begin with.

Walcott was a last minute 'call in' to face Simon. It was a crazy idea. Walcott needed a buck (as ever) and decided to take his chances against a nurtured n' dangerous contender. He had done absolutely no training.

Ted Spoon is amazed despite this 'Jersey' Joe was still beating Simon to the punch and snatched up the first 5 rounds only to find himself exhuasted and then he was caught because he was in no kind of condition. "

I'll get back to you on the other stuff later.

Let's stick to Walcott's KO loss to Abe Freakin Simon!

You call Walcott green - He'd been a pro for 10 years. 5 years longer than Abe.

Your historian buddy calls Simon a 'dangerous contender'. He couldn't have been that dangerous as he'd just lost to Willie Reddish (a bloke the 'green' Walcott had beaten). Given that he'd also recently lost to such relative nobodies as Lem Franklin and Al "Big Boy" Bray it's a bit rich refering to Abe as a contender, let alone a dangerous one. if Abe was a contender the ranks must have been pretty bare in those long ago days.

"Ted" told you Walcott hadn't done any training at all. Well, Jersey Joe had actually had a fight 3 weeks prior the the Simon bout. Didn't "Ted" think that was worth mentioning?

Finally, this Spoon character who's been feeding you this stuff. How did he get the 'historian' tag? A published author is he? Give me a run-down on his credentials, por favor, as the example you have given of his prose leaves me longing for more.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Dec 2005, 02:11

You call Walcott green - He'd been a pro for 10 years. 5 years longer than Abe.

why was walcott green?

walcott had no amateur experience, no management, no trainer, no training equipment, had to take fights on short notice, and was repeatedly badly overmatched. Walcott's losses to Ettore and Simon were short-notice walk-in fights in which an inexperienced and under-prepared Walcott just plain ran out of gas and was knocked out by two name contenders, and his losses to Fox were came Walcott was a kid with 20 pro fights, no professional training, going against a world-class top contender(a future Hall-of-Famer, in fact) with over 100 pro fights and was just plain overmatched. Holding these fights against Walcott would be like holding Holmes' loss to Bobick in the amateurs against him and saying he had no heart because he quit.

walcott was not even close to his prime when he fought abe simon. walcott lost to abe simon 12 YEARS before he won the heavyweight title.

"Ted" told you Walcott hadn't done any training at all. Well, Jersey Joe had actually had a fight 3 weeks prior the the Simon bout. Didn't "Ted" think that was worth mentioning?

ur right but he didnt train for the next 3 weeks after that fight. he was outworking trying to feed his starving family. then all of a sudden he gets a call asking him to fight abe simon the very next day.

abe simon was a 6'4 255lb hulk who didnt have much skill, but was durable and strong. he also was a pretty hard puncher and mobile. his size and strength alone made him a threat to anyone. but abe simon was a top ten contender and not just a big oaf. He was a big stron durable contender.

theone · Post by **theone** » 15 Dec 2005, 09:07

o yes, and larry holmes was in his prime when he went even with norton, unlike walcott with simon

bad comparision, Norton was a much better than Simon.

abe simon was a 6'4 255lb hulk who didnt have much skill, but was durable and strong. he also was a pretty hard puncher and mobile. his size and strength alone made him a threat to anyone. but abe simon was a top ten contender and not just a big oaf.

No, he was pretty much a big oaf with terrible movement. He was a fortunate to fight in a era of mostly smaller heavyweights who he could just walk down.

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 15 Dec 2005, 11:46

This was a bad comparison, Joe Louis v Larry Holmes... I mean c'mon. That's like saying Ali v Bruno and I'm a great fan of Bruno but there would have been no chance of an upset!!!

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Dec 2005, 19:45

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: collins heres the jersey joe walcott quote from poster ted spoon a historian:

"The man ran out of steam because he never had any steam to begin with.

Walcott was a last minute 'call in' to face Simon. It was a crazy idea. Walcott needed a buck (as ever) and decided to take his chances against a nurtured n' dangerous contender. He had done absolutely no training.

Ted Spoon is amazed despite this 'Jersey' Joe was still beating Simon to the punch and snatched up the first 5 rounds only to find himself exhuasted and then he was caught because he was in no kind of condition. "

I just did a Google search for "Ted Spoon".

It appears he is one of Monte Cox' boys.

Monte is also a self-proclaimed historian.

How do you seperate a fan (which is what Monte is) from a 'historian'????

When does a fan actually become a historian? Do you just have to pay someone to build you a website and then announce it from there?

Also, how old is "Ted Spoon"? He must be getting on in years if he saw Simon vs Walcott live...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Dec 2005, 23:25

He said a while back he is in his 70s, dont know how true that is

- but the account he gave of the fight is correct because i have read about the simon-walcott fight before.

How do you seperate a fan (which is what Monte is) from a 'historian'????

maybe you could answer that for me collins?

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 15 Dec 2005, 23:40

Apparently some people have a difficult time understanding what exactly a historian is. Lets clear it up!

His-to-ri-an (hi stawree en):

Student and scholar of history; somebody who is knowledgeable in history and who may write about or teach it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Dec 2005, 23:56

evndrbsn wrote:Apparently some people have a difficult time understanding what exactly a historian is. Lets clear it up!

His-to-ri-an (hi stawree en):

Student and scholar of history; somebody who is knowledgeable in history and who may write about or teach it.

am I supposed to be taking notes or will you provide a outline for me?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 16 Dec 2005, 00:19

evndrbsn wrote:Apparently some people have a difficult time understanding what exactly a historian is. Lets clear it up!

His-to-ri-an (hi stawree en):

Student and scholar of history; somebody who is knowledgeable in history and who may write about or teach it.

We must all be historians on here then

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 16 Dec 2005, 20:56

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:He said a while back he is in his 70s, dont know how true that is

- but the account he gave of the fight is correct because i have read about the simon-walcott fight before.

How do you seperate a fan (which is what Monte is) from a 'historian'????

maybe you could answer that for me collins?

Well if he was 20 when he saw that fight live, he'd be 85 now.

Here's a bit of Monte's diarhhoea. Now I know where you've been getting some of this stuff:

" Most boxing fans are only knowledgeable of the fighters of their era (the ones they have seen), and are ignorant of history. If they really knew what those men could do they would fully comprehend that boxing skill does not accumulate like facts in science – that today’s theories are better than yesterday’s. It is not an adding up to of anything – it is a science in the sense that the strategies and tactics of hand-to-hand combat are principles that form the basis of the sport, which are ignored at the fighter’s peril. Boxing like the ancient art of the Samurai is a dying art form. The art of feinting is all but lost, body punching neglected, good defense and countering a rarity. The days of battlefield swordsmanship are gone. So too are the days of the great trainers and the great experienced fighters of old. "

I notice many similarities between your own ideas (and even your prose) and dear old Monte's. Be careful. Monte isn't quite the historian he makes himself out to be.

Hahahahaha, and he's always been such a fekkin drama queen - "Boxing is a dying art form" , "good defence a rarity" etc etc. He doesn't actually watch much modern boxing, I fear. Not that HE needs to as he already knows everything and more.

He was wanking on about how the trainers of today have little or no boxing experience. This was at Gay Dennis Beebe's site some years ago. One example he used to give was Emanuel Steward - until someone pointed out that Steward DID have an extensive amateur career. Monte didn't know........Nor did he care............... he still uses Steward as an example of what's wrong with boxing today on his site.