silkov wrote:BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Decagon wrote:No, I'm saying that the fact is, he didn't beat Valdez, and he didn't clean out the division. There are a lot of guys he should have fought, while Johnson, Lewis, Louis, Ali and Holmes didn't leave as many holes in their resume. If Marciano actually had cleaned out the division instead of beating a couple of old light heavyweights, I might rank him in my top 10.
-archie moore was better than anyone at the time. he was the # 1 contender who beat valdes twice, bob baker, etc.
-ezzard charles was the # 1 contender at the time, and he was certainly better than any HW in the world in the first marciano fight
-roland lastarza was 26 and IMO would have boxed valdes ears off
-don cockell was # 2 contender and british champ and only 26 years old
If Marciano actually had cleaned out the division instead of beating a couple of old light heavyweights, I might rank him in my top 10.
well those "old" light-H were beating all the young big heavyweights, so by marciano beating them, hes cleaned out the division.
valdes had his shot but lost to moore in an eliminater.
- baker was losing too much, way too inconsistent
- satterfield was losing to much
- hurricane jackson wanted no part of marciano after puking in a sparring session with rocky after rocky landed a body blow.
- earl walls lost to rockys sparring partner tommy harrison, then all of a suddent retired at 27
deacgon, marciano beat top 20 heavyweights in charles and walcott
and marciano beat top 40 heavyweight of all time in archie moore
decagon ur a hypocrite,
what about jack johnson not fighting sam langford, joe jeanette, sam mcvey when they were much better fighters???
what about holmes not fighting page, coetzee, dokes, thomas instead of those fat bums??
To be honest its not worth trying to debate with you as you have such a closed mind... any fighter that gave Marciano trouble you think was something special. Christ its well known that Layne was just a big brave strong boy who was was pushed in well over his head during his career yet pulled off some good wins because of his heart. Walcott was undertrained and overweight when he fought Layne and got himself out worked. For you to sing the praises of Layne and denigrate Cooney is very misguided, Cooney was a very talented fighter with huge power and if you want to see how good he was then watch his fight against Holmes where he gave a very good and brave performance despite being ultimately outclassed. Layne would have been lucky to go 6 rounds with Holmes as he would have been cut to peices.
As for Holmes not fighting Dokes, Coetzee, Page, and Thomas, much of the reason for this was politics but also because these guys lost fights... Page was lined up to fight Holmes but lost to Bey, so Holmes Fought Bey instead!... also Holmes beat Weaver, who beat Coetzee (who beat Dokes) and Holmes also beat Berbick who went on to beat Page and Thomas... so by any streatch of the imagination Holmes more than proved himself the best in his era and again he defended his title 21 times to Rockys 6.
Don Cockell was hardly sevelte when he fought Marciano and nor was Moore... look at the gut on Moore when he fought Marciano!... at least Jones and Bey were fullfledged Heavies....
its clear its impossible to debate u, u do not have an open mind, u are so bias with the 80s heavyweights its laughable. u think cooney was good because he took holmes 13 hard rounds, well i think lastarza was good because he took marciano 11 hard rounds. i thnik godoy was good because he took joe louis 23 hard rounds. u think cooney was that much better than layne?? how was cooney so talented? he was an uncoordinated one handed fighter with the most padded record u will ever see in ur life. perhaps u do not know much about layne or u are just too bias in favor of cooney to make holmes look better. i like how u make exuses for walcott to degrade layne so marciano wont look better since he destroyed layne.
heres what a guy who saw layne live had to say
"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.
But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right."
of course u know more than him right?
Page was lined up to fight Holmes but lost to Bey, so Holmes Fought Bey instead!
yes i know that, so dont go saying marciano avoided valdes, because valdes lost to moore so moore fought marciano instead!
As for Holmes not fighting Dokes, Coetzee, Page, and Thomas, much of the reason for this was politics but also because these guys lost fights
same thing with marciano not fighting baker,valdes, walls, henry
yet ur a hypocrite and cant see that with marciano
so by any streatch of the imagination Holmes more than proved himself the best in his era and again he defended his title 21 times to Rockys 6.
12 of those defenses were against journeyman or B level contenders that didnt deserve a shot at the title. i do however give credit to holmes for defending that many times........
of course u refuse to realize marciano was a swarmer and they never last as long. marciano style simply doesnt allow him to defend it 21 times, tooo many wars. u have to base it on what he did in those 6 title defenses.
would u also liked to explain to me why holmes never gave rematches in close or controversial fights unlike rocky?
any fighter that gave Marciano trouble you think was something special
so because i rate walcott and charles in the top 20 heavyweights, im being bias.
As for Holmes fighting fatties, the only heavy guys Holmes faced were Leroy Jones and David Bey, both of whom gained their shots by merit and were despite their size, good fighters.
good fighters? they were fat C level fighters who didnt deserve a shot just like 8 other guys.
alfredo evangelista?? lorenzo zanon?? tex cobb? lucien rodriguez?? ossie osacio??? scott frank?? etc i mean how did these B level guys get a shot at the title over dokes, page, thomas??
Don Cockell was hardly sevelte when he fought Marciano and nor was Moore... look at the gut on Moore when he fought Marciano!
yes lets make fun of a guy who had a disease and couldnt control the fact that he had a gut, unlike some 80s heavyweights.
http://www.pugilistica.com/BoxingArchiv ... th_th_.JPG
ur trying to tell me moore had a gut???
at least Jones and Bey were fullfledged Heavies....
no they were fat heavyweights that should have been 30lbs lighter
cockell would have beat both of them, moore would have absolute raped david bey and leroy jones.
btw that "fat" "old" light-H u like to make fun of would have beat all of holmes title defense opponents except norton and spoon.
moore would have absolutley picked apart gerry cooney. of course he got people here with the "bigger is better" disease so a 6'7 225lb man intrigues a lot of people. moore had more skill in his finger than cooney did in his entire body.
so its clear the things u critisize marciano on u dont critizise larry holmes on. why? because ur a hypocrite unlike me who doesnt hold it against either man.
