BoxRec

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I think one could argue the 95-97 Tyson was still in his prime based ion his strenth, quickness and performance in various fights.

do u mean the way he didnt hit bruce seldon and he still went down?

or do u mean the way he "Stopped" old frank bruno who was so scared of tyson because of there 89 meeting, that he looked like he was going to shit his pants.


or how bout his 1 round demolition or should i say DISQUALIFICATION of peter "i fight like im in a toughmans contest" mcneely?


your right, i mean his recent preformances didnt have anything to do with his competition sucking, or his competition being scared to death and going down without being hit.

YEA REAL DOMINATING PREFORMANCES BY TYSON





* at least the bruno of 89 came to fight and came to win

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:But as for as endurance, Tyson had better endurance. Shavers got tired after usually after 5 or 6 rounds. Shavers punched himself out against Ron Lyle after doing so well in the early rounds nearly knocking Lyle out in the 2nd with a left hook, his stamina beat him in the Tex Cobb and Mercado fights where Shavers was ahead and Shavers looked like he was dead with exhaustion against Holmes in their second meeting. Only the Ali fight proved that Shavers didnt tire out like he usually did.

Huh? Tyson usually tired out after four rounds. After that, he was a plodding fighter who almost never threw combinations.

o god, shavers more stamina than tyson?

earnie shavers biggest flaw in his career was stamina.



- tyson proved he could shutout good solid boxers like tony tucker who is underated IMO. lennox lewis couldnt even knock out a far past it tucker.

What I notice about the guys who love Tyson is that you just don't accept the facts. If someone gives an answer or a criticism then more rubbish unfolds. Holyfield lost to Ruiz, Toney or Byrd past his prime but Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime and Williams and McBride out of it! Lewis and Holyfield may have been beaten but not by them 3. Look who Holyfield lost to in his prime. Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, McCall and Rahman are certainly better than Williams and McBride and probably Douglas as well.

Arsenal wrote:What I notice about the guys who love Tyson is that you just don't accept the facts. If someone gives an answer or a criticism then more rubbish unfolds. Holyfield lost to Ruiz, Toney or Byrd past his prime but Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime and Williams and McBride out of it! Lewis and Holyfield may have been beaten but not by them 3. Look who Holyfield lost to in his prime. Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, McCall and Rahman are certainly better than Williams and McBride and probably Douglas as well.

Zing!!! The truth has rolled in and all the bullshit is being shipped out. Great points, Arsenal. Ruiz, Toney, and Byrd all held either the WBA or IBF heavyweight titles at some point in their careers. Ruiz won the heavyweight title twice, Toney won titles in multiple divisions, and Byrd has held his own title for the past four years. And McCall, well he was famous for dropping Tyson in sparring and giving him his toughest sessions, so he was no joke even with plus size gloves on. Rahman is a two-time WBC champion, so that is nothing to sneeze at either.

Danny Williams is a decent fighter and a notch above pretenders like Audley Harrison, but we all saw what happened when he stepped up in class against Vitali Klitschko. McBride, though, is just plain terrible. The fact that Louis Monaco and feather fisted Axel Schulz stopped him speaks volumes of his ability. Neither one of these guys will ever win a major title or beat a legitimate top ten heavyweight. Yet they both KO'd Iron Mike Tyson!!!

Lewis and Holyfield fought the big fights and won them. Tyson never won a big fight after dispatching of a piss scared Michael Spinks in '88. That was 18 years ago. Holyfield, on the other hand, had a huge win over Hasim Rahman only four years ago and Lewis had a stoppage over Vitali Klitschko merely three years ago. When those guys deteriorated with age, they were able to rely on skill and guile, excellent conditioning, and toughness to keep winning. Once Tyson's blinding hand speed faded away, so did his ability to become a force in the division. So no matter whether Tyson lost to Douglas or not, he still would have slowed down just enough for another top fighter to come along and knock him off his perch.

There's another point I want to make. You Tyson fans always go on that when Douglas beat him he was not at his prime. Apparently his prime only lasted 2 years. Well I would say when Lennox got beat by McCall when he wasn't in his prime and you could argue the same about Rahman. My personal opinion is that the Tyson fight showed Lewis at his true best but it could still be argued it was his 2nd from last fight so he was probably out of his prime. The same could be said for Holyfield. When was his prime before, during or after the Bowe defeat?

At the end of the day Lewis avenged his two defeats. Tyson didn't. There is no way on earth Lewis or Holyfield out of there prime would lose to Williams or McBride. I've give Douglas some credit and say he stood a miniscule chance. Actually no he wouldn't. In actual fact I think Holyfield would still beat Willaims and McBride now. On 4 weeks training at at 40 Leiws would still beat those two.

No they are facts! Lewis or Holyfield wouldn't lose with one arm to Douglas, McBride or Williams. Come on McBride! Tyson was shot to pieces but even so that is a terrible mark on anyone's record. I would rather have a loss to McCall or Rahman on my record than Williams or McBride.

Decagon I don't wish to argue but I stated facts. The facts being that Tyson fans never seem to accept certain facts about him and that Tyson lost to fighters of a worse calibre than Tyson or Lewis. If you are seriously saying that McBride/Wiliams are better than Ruiz, Byrd, Toney, Rahman or McCall then thats ridiculous. Caulk made certain statements and I answered them and proved them to be wrong with facts! Like that Tyson beat the same oppenents as Lewis and Holyfield in a better way and that Tyson had a better chin than Holyfield. I know you may say that is an opinion but Lewis who is a massive puncher Koed Tyson but not Holyfield when most people say that both were not in their primes. Also Holyfield was only stopped twice, once way past his prime, compared to Tyson's 5.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, Holyfield was on his feet when he was stopped whereas Tyson was knocked down and counted out.

I know you will say these are opinions but we can say certain things and although they are set in stone they are fact i.e. Tyson would have blown away McBride inside a Rd in his prime. Opinion or fact? I'd say fact!

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:But as for as endurance, Tyson had better endurance. Shavers got tired after usually after 5 or 6 rounds. Shavers punched himself out against Ron Lyle after doing so well in the early rounds nearly knocking Lyle out in the 2nd with a left hook, his stamina beat him in the Tex Cobb and Mercado fights where Shavers was ahead and Shavers looked like he was dead with exhaustion against Holmes in their second meeting. Only the Ali fight proved that Shavers didnt tire out like he usually did.

Huh? Tyson usually tired out after four rounds. After that, he was a plodding fighter who almost never threw combinations.

Its your opinion, but its silly to say Shavers had more stamina than Tyson. Tyson even proved he had stamina in the Ruddock fights where still he was only 24, but became just a puncher after the Douglas loss. I never seen a prime Tyson get tired as how Shavers did during his hey days a a top contender in the 70's but Tyson performed well against Tillis, Green and Tucker and these fights went the distance. It is a fact that Shavers usually got tired after 6 rounds and therefore fighters like Mercado and Cobb beat him, (though to be far Shavers was past his prime). But even in the Lyle bout Shavers had punched himself out.

Tyson of old however did tire as shown in the McBride fight but even in the first Holyfield bout Tyson, though being beaten to the punch regurlarly was still in the fight and still wasnt showing any signs of exhastion like Shavers had shown in especially the Holmes fights.

If Shavers had stamina he wouldnt of lost half the fights he lost. Shaver's stamina cost him the Lyle fight, the Mercado, Cobb and Bob Stallings fight. Shavers was superb front runner often being ahead in most of his losses but his stamina cost him these wins. His stamina could be argued may of cost him in the Ali fight because he did eventually slow up as the rounds went, but I think Shavers still deserved the Ali victory regardless.

Lewis and Holyfield fought the big fights and won them. Tyson never won a big fight after dispatching of a piss scared Michael Spinks in '88.

can people please stop giving tyson no credit for this victory. i never hear anyone not give liston credit for patterson victories even though patterson was piss scared, and it was clear on film patterson froze and started to fight a horrible game plan.

Decagon wrote:Patterson went on to have a somewhat productive career. Spinks retired.

thats not the point. patterson froze up more than spinx did vs tyson.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Patterson went on to have a somewhat productive career. Spinks retired.

thats not the point. patterson froze up more than spinx did vs tyson.

Patterson also wasn't the champion coming in. At least Patterson made it into the last minute both times.

Mattyp151 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Patterson went on to have a somewhat productive career. Spinks retired.

thats not the point. patterson froze up more than spinx did vs tyson.

Patterson also wasn't the champion coming in. At least Patterson made it into the last minute both times.

patterson wasnt the champion?

Mattyp151 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Patterson went on to have a somewhat productive career. Spinks retired.

thats not the point. patterson froze up more than spinx did vs tyson.

Patterson also wasn't the champion coming in.

he was in their first fight.

Caulk Rocket wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:Zing!!! The truth has rolled in and all the bullshit is being shipped out. Great points, Arsenal. Ruiz, Toney, and Byrd all held either the WBA or IBF heavyweight titles at some point in their careers. Ruiz won the heavyweight title twice, Toney won titles in multiple divisions, and Byrd has held his own title for the past four years. And McCall, well he was famous for dropping Tyson in sparring and giving him his toughest sessions, so he was no joke even with plus size gloves on. Rahman is a two-time WBC champion, so that is nothing to sneeze at either.

McCall was beaten down by Bruno, Tucker, Douglas and Norris. That's hardly a top caliber fighter. Just because Ruiz and Byrd held titles doesn't mean they were any better than the old champs Tyson fought like Berbick, Smith or Tucker, who Tyson beat easily. Toney is the only good fighter of the bunch. Rahman is also a chump, yet he still knocked Lewis out cold. Something no fighter, even fighter of the quality of Lewis or Holyfield could do to Tyson, even past his prime. I don't remember Evander ever being knocked out cold either.

Neither one of these guys will ever win a major title or beat a legitimate top ten heavyweight. Yet they both KO'd Iron Mike Tyson!!!

Time to come back down from fantasy land. McBride didn't knock out Tyson. It shows up that way on the record, but that doesn't mean Tyson ever touched the floor.

The only reason Tyson quit the fight was to avoid the embarrassment of getting counted out against an oafish and untalented heavyweight such as McBride, as he surely would have if he'd come out for the next frame.

And I do not believe McCall was "beaten down" by any of those fighters. I think his most one-sided loss was his 5th round TKO defeat to Lewis, although he was 100% in the fight before falling apart after two rounds. A points loss does not necessitate a beating anyway.

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Arsenal wrote:What I notice about the guys who love Tyson is that you just don't accept the facts. If someone gives an answer or a criticism then more rubbish unfolds. Holyfield lost to Ruiz, Toney or Byrd past his prime but Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime and Williams and McBride out of it! Lewis and Holyfield may have been beaten but not by them 3. Look who Holyfield lost to in his prime. Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, McCall and Rahman are certainly better than Williams and McBride and probably Douglas as well.

McBride didn't even beat Tyson. Stop acting like he dropped Mike. Tyson was ahead on the cards. John Ruiz sucks, Chris Byrd is a total wimp. If it took a prime Lewis 8 rounds to beat Tyson, Byrd nor Ruiz could have even edged a decision, much less a KO. The only exception is James Toney, who may have won a decision, but never a KO against the elder Tyson.

As for Lewis's losses, he lost in his prime. He was also PUT TO SLEEP, KTFO'D. Not once, but twice. Not just twice, early in both fights. Tyson nor Holyfield were ever laid flat that bad, especially by chumps.

Lewis was not in his prime when he beat Tyson. He was 36 & even older than Tyson.

He was just a better fighter who was able to compete effectively after his prime years.

He could have KO'd Tyson in 3-4 rounds had he not been so cautious that night.

Caulk correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying McBride didn't knock down Tyson? It says that on the record nut thats not correct eh? A fighter who fails to beat teh count is KOed right?

Also Caulk answer me this. What would you consider Tyson's prime? Most Tyson fans on here claim it to be 2-3 years prior to the Douglas defeat which is very convient isn't it? Now what would you say was Lewis's prime? Because most Lewis detractors put Tyson's defeat down to him being out of his prime and Lewis's defeats down to him not being that good. It seems Lewis had the longest prime ever...his whole career! face it Lewis's defeats were when he was out of his prime. But unlike Tyson Lewis still dominated out of his prime.

I would like to know the age of the Tyson fans on this forum because if you grew up watching Tyson I can see why some of you are infatuated with him.

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Arsenal wrote:What I notice about the guys who love Tyson is that you just don't accept the facts. If someone gives an answer or a criticism then more rubbish unfolds. Holyfield lost to Ruiz, Toney or Byrd past his prime but Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime and Williams and McBride out of it! Lewis and Holyfield may have been beaten but not by them 3. Look who Holyfield lost to in his prime. Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, McCall and Rahman are certainly better than Williams and McBride and probably Douglas as well.

McBride didn't even beat Tyson. Stop acting like he dropped Mike. Tyson was ahead on the cards. John Ruiz sucks, Chris Byrd is a total wimp. If it took a prime Lewis 8 rounds to beat Tyson, Byrd nor Ruiz could have even edged a decision, much less a KO. The only exception is James Toney, who may have won a decision, but never a KO against the elder Tyson.

As for Lewis's losses, he lost in his prime. He was also PUT TO SLEEP, KTFO'D. Not once, but twice. Not just twice, early in both fights. Tyson nor Holyfield were ever laid flat that bad, especially by chumps.

Excellent post. Just a note in the Lewis - Tyson fight, it had been calculated that Lewis clinced just a little over 1000 times. Thats even more than the ususal Ruiz fight.

Syntax Error wrote:

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Arsenal wrote:What I notice about the guys who love Tyson is that you just don't accept the facts. If someone gives an answer or a criticism then more rubbish unfolds. Holyfield lost to Ruiz, Toney or Byrd past his prime but Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime and Williams and McBride out of it! Lewis and Holyfield may have been beaten but not by them 3. Look who Holyfield lost to in his prime. Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, McCall and Rahman are certainly better than Williams and McBride and probably Douglas as well.

McBride didn't even beat Tyson. Stop acting like he dropped Mike. Tyson was ahead on the cards. John Ruiz sucks, Chris Byrd is a total wimp. If it took a prime Lewis 8 rounds to beat Tyson, Byrd nor Ruiz could have even edged a decision, much less a KO. The only exception is James Toney, who may have won a decision, but never a KO against the elder Tyson.

As for Lewis's losses, he lost in his prime. He was also PUT TO SLEEP, KTFO'D. Not once, but twice. Not just twice, early in both fights. Tyson nor Holyfield were ever laid flat that bad, especially by chumps.

Lewis was not in his prime when he beat Tyson. He was 36 & even older than Tyson.

He was just a better fighter who was able to compete effectively after his prime years.

He could have KO'd Tyson in 3-4 rounds had he not been so cautious that night.

Syntax, yes Lewis was older but that doesnt mean he was more past it than Tyson. When Lewis was making his pro debut Tyson was already the Linear heavyweight champ.

Wilfred Benetiz even was past it at 22 - 24 years old while fighters like Ron Lyle didnt even start fighting when he was 30. Tyson had been fighting far longer than Lewis, engaged in far more wars and therefore had more wear and tear than him.

At this pace my prediction of 7 pages of arguments looks to be a bit short!

Caulk Rocket wrote:
Excellent post. Just a note in the Lewis - Tyson fight, it had been calculated that Lewis clinced just a little over 1000 times. Thats even more than the ususal Ruiz fight.

1000 times in an 8 round fight? So he clinched more than double the punches he threw? Utter crap!

Lewis held on for absolute dear life when he fought an old un -interested Tyson. Arrogant Lewis should o fbeen DQ'ed, in a boxing match you have to be in there fighting, not grabbing like he was doing.

Lewis has a great claim to be one of the most boring fighters in history.

RazorKO wrote:Lewis held on for absolute dear life when he fought an old un -interested Tyson. Arrogant Lewis should o fbeen DQ'ed, in a boxing match you have to be in there fighting, not grabbing like he was doing.

Lewis has a great claim to be one of the most boring fighters in history.

You are just bitter because Lewis knocked Ruddock clean out. It looked like a cartoon when Ruddock went tiiiiimmmber! That was pretty damn exciting.

evndrbsn wrote:

RazorKO wrote:Lewis held on for absolute dear life when he fought an old un -interested Tyson. Arrogant Lewis should o fbeen DQ'ed, in a boxing match you have to be in there fighting, not grabbing like he was doing.

Lewis has a great claim to be one of the most boring fighters in history.

You are just bitter because Lewis knocked Ruddock clean out. It looked like a cartoon when Ruddock went tiiiiimmmber! That was pretty damn exciting.

Lewi,s I suppose deserves credit for knocking out Ruddock in that fashion as no one had ever done that to Ruddock before. But the two Tyson fights definetly took something out of him - That and the disgraceful partisan crowd who treated him like scum. I would like to see the members of the crowd of the Lewis-Ruddock bout go into the ring and fight. - Absolutley disgraceful behaviour and totally diminishes + totaly an embarassment to this sport.

Arsenal wrote:

Caulk Rocket wrote:
Excellent post. Just a note in the Lewis - Tyson fight, it had been calculated that Lewis clinced just a little over 1000 times. Thats even more than the ususal Ruiz fight.

1000 times in an 8 round fight? So he clinched more than double the punches he threw? Utter crap!

It was calculated that Lewis held over 1000 times? So on average, Lewis clinched 125 times per round, which would equal around 42 times per minute (or a clinch nearly every second and a half). According to you, he was doing all this while still throwing 328 punches in the fight, or 41 punches per round, which comes to almost 14 punches per minute.

Hmmm, I am not sure your bold factoid holds up to close scrutinization.

RazorKO wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

RazorKO wrote:Lewis held on for absolute dear life when he fought an old un -interested Tyson. Arrogant Lewis should o fbeen DQ'ed, in a boxing match you have to be in there fighting, not grabbing like he was doing.

Lewis has a great claim to be one of the most boring fighters in history.

You are just bitter because Lewis knocked Ruddock clean out. It looked like a cartoon when Ruddock went tiiiiimmmber! That was pretty damn exciting.

Lewi,s I suppose deserves credit for knocking out Ruddock in that fashion as no one had ever done that to Ruddock before. But the two Tyson fights definetly took something out of him - That and the disgraceful partisan crowd who treated him like scum. I would like to see the members of the crowd of the Lewis-Ruddock bout go into the ring and fight. - Absolutley disgraceful behaviour and totally diminishes + totaly an embarassment to this sport.

I agree that crowds can get out of hand. I concede that point. The only problem is that many, many fighters have gone to hostile environments against tough opponents and still come away with the W. Jack Johnson did it all the time. It just shows that Ruddock lacked the mental make up to achieve greatness, and that is something that has to be held against him as a whole.

A 100% focused Ruddock in a non-hostile environment would still get KO'd in 2 by Lewis. It was a fantastic right hand.