BoxRec Boxing Hall of Fame, Round 3 ballots - CLOSED

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 10 May 2006, 23:19

generic screen name wrote:I wish I knew more older boxers, I would vote in this.

If you're up for a little research, you ought to scan the ballots already sumbitted and brush up on the fighters being voted for. Maybe you'll be able to get a good list of 25 together by the 25th, or for the next round. Feel free to ask lots of questions.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 May 2006, 09:46

Ambling Alp wrote:Just wanted to put in my two cents regarding John L Sullivan.
I have read "John L Sullivan and His America" and thought it was very interesting. I also have a book by Rex Lardner called "The Legendary Champions", which covers heavyweight boxing from Sullivan to Tunney. It's very good as well.

The sport of boxing was certainly more popular by 1892 when Sullivan gave way to Corbett than it was when Sullivan won the title in 1882. (That's right, he was the heavyweight champion for 10 years).

This growth in popularity was mostly because of Sullivan. Though not the slick boxer that Corbett was, Sullivan had decent skills, and of course had great power and was very agrressive. He boxed hundreds of exhibitions (and regular fights) all over the country. This helped promote boxing and Sullivan himself.

Corbett helped to emphasize different facets of boxing such as defense, speed, and various technical skills. He also helped boxing appeal to a wider range of people.
Because of Sullivan, the popularity of boxing went up a couple of rungs on the ladder so to speak; and because of Corbett it went up a couple of more rungs.

Still, I it seems a stretch to call Sullivan the "Babe Ruth" of boxing.
He was never as well known as Ruth. Ruth is still considered by most as the greatest baseball player of all time; Sullivan isn't considered the best heavyweight of alltime.
To me, Sullivan was more like Cap Anson. (The great first baseman of the late 19th century). He was the biggest name of a struggling sport.

Does Sullivan belong in the Boxing Hall of Fame? Certainly.
However, by the rules that we have set up, we can only vote for 25 fighters spanning more than 100 years of boxing.
I just couldn't justify voting Sullivan in ahead of the truly great heavweight champions, such as Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Liston,Ali and Frazier in the first two ballots. Of course we also have to put in guys from the other weight classes as well.
He does deserve the benefit of the doubt and should be put in ahead of the mid-level heavyweight champions such as Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Patterson and Norton.
Now that we are voting on the 3rd ballot, many of the truly great heavyweights have been put in. Frazier, Jeffries, Liston, and Tunney are the only remaining eligible heavyweights that should be put in before Sullivan. I personally haven't voted for Sullivan in the first two ballots, but am seriously considering him for the 3rd ballot; it's just a matter of if there is enough room for another heavyweight on this ballot.

As always, the voice of reason...
Cheers, P

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 11 May 2006, 13:48

Bert Gilroy

Scotland's longest reigning Champion, 1938-50 'MW' & 'L-HW'
UK's No.1 Contender 1939-48

Britain's most feared fighter 1938-48, SHUT-OUT!
The Greatest British fighter never to "HOLD" a British or World Title!

and of course his greatest 'rival' the Rochdale Thunderbolt, Jock McAvoy.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 May 2006, 16:10

Well Jim, you could make out a ballot and include Gilroy and McAvoy if you feel they were that good.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 12 May 2006, 09:51

this is going great this month

Hopefully we get some more .

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 15 May 2006, 01:29

May 15 bump. Ten days until all ballots become official.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 15 May 2006, 04:58

sockdollanger wrote:this is going great this month Hopefully we get some more .

well I saw that it was 5+ pages and assumed it was all ballots, I assumed wrong. Still not a bad turnout, keep em comin!

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 15 May 2006, 13:33

sockdollanger wrote:
sockdollanger wrote:this is going great this month :TU: Hopefully we get some more .
well I saw that it was 5+ pages and assumed it was all ballots, I assumed wrong. Still not a bad turnout, keep em comin!

Nope, a lot of it's debate about who should be voted in, which is good. I'd love to see a few more ballots over the next ten days though.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 May 2006, 17:34

Kid Lefty, here's my ballot:

Lou Ambers
Abe Attell
Nino Benevenuti
Tony Canzoneri
George Dixon
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Gene Fullmer
Kid Gavilan
Emile Griffith
Wilfredo Gomez
Fighting Harada
James Jeffries
Harold Johnson
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Aaron Pryor
Vincente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
John L. Sullivan
Dick Tiger
Gene Tunney
Carlos Zarate

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 21 May 2006, 11:45

Just a reminder - balloting is finished at midnight EST on Thursday.

If you've already posted a ballot you can still make revisions right up until the last minute, but it becomes official at the end of the day on the 25th. If you haven't posted yet, don't delay, the clock is ticking!!

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 21 May 2006, 18:25

My 25 kidlefty, in alphabetical order

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Tony Canzoneri
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Kid Gavilan
James J Jeffries
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Eusebio Pedroza
Aaron Pryor
Matt Saad Muhammad
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
Dick Tiger
Gene Tunney
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Hilario Zapata

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 May 2006, 19:26

Flump wrote:My 25 kidlefty, in alphabetical order

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Tony Canzoneri
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Kid Gavilan
Jake LaMotta
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Eusebio Pedroza
Aaron Pryor
Matt Saad Muhammad
Vicente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
Dick Tiger
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Hilario Zapata

You overlooked Tunney, or you really believe he shouldn't be in there?

taverner · Post by **taverner** » 22 May 2006, 06:12

Flump wrote:My 25 kidlefty, in alphabetical order

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Tony Canzoneri
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Kid Gavilan
Jake LaMotta
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Eusebio Pedroza
Aaron Pryor
Matt Saad Muhammad
Vicente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
Dick Tiger
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Hilario Zapata

Zapata is a great pick as somebody normally overlooked by these sort of lists - I wanted to include him but couldn't find a way to fit him in.

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 22 May 2006, 07:18

pundit wrote:
Flump wrote:My 25 kidlefty, in alphabetical order

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Tony Canzoneri
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Kid Gavilan
Jake LaMotta
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Eusebio Pedroza
Aaron Pryor
Matt Saad Muhammad
Vicente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
Dick Tiger
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Hilario Zapata
You overlooked Tunney, or you really believe he shouldn't be in there?

Tunney was clearly a great fighter and probably worthy of a place but I've only ever seen highlights from the two Dempsey fights and the Carpentier fight, the other fighters I've been able make a judgement on because I've seen more of them.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 May 2006, 09:36

Flump wrote:
pundit wrote:
Flump wrote:My 25 kidlefty, in alphabetical order

Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Tony Canzoneri
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Kid Gavilan
Jake LaMotta
Sonny Liston
Jose Napoles
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Eusebio Pedroza
Aaron Pryor
Matt Saad Muhammad
Vicente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Michael Spinks
Dick Tiger
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Hilario Zapata
You overlooked Tunney, or you really believe he shouldn't be in there?
Tunney was clearly a great fighter and probably worthy of a place but I've only ever seen highlights from the two Dempsey fights and the Carpentier fight, the other fighters I've been able make a judgement on because I've seen more of them.

Fair enough. Places pre-1930s fighters at a disadvantage though.

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 22 May 2006, 12:07

Personally, I think there's plenty of information out there on most of the major pre-1930's fighters. Even though we don't have the footage, we know enough to decide who's a Hall of Famer. It seems absurd to me that someone would hold back on calling Gene Tunney (or Jim Jeffries) a HOFer simply because they haven't seen the film.

But hey, if everyone's ballots were the same, we wouldn't bother doing this, right?

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 22 May 2006, 15:19

kidlefty wrote:Personally, I think there's plenty of information out there on most of the major pre-1930's fighters. Even though we don't have the footage, we know enough to decide who's a Hall of Famer. It seems absurd to me that someone would hold back on calling Gene Tunney (or Jim Jeffries) a HOFer simply because they haven't seen the film.

But hey, if everyone's ballots were the same, we wouldn't bother doing this, right?

OK guys(kidlefty,pundit), thinking about it you're quite right, I guess I am discriminating against pre 30's fighters. Considering that I've read enough and seen some footage of these guys, I would like to insert Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney in place of Saldivar and LaMotta. But I ain't giving up Matt Saad Muhammad for anyone!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 22 May 2006, 15:44

Flump wrote:
kidlefty wrote:Personally, I think there's plenty of information out there on most of the major pre-1930's fighters. Even though we don't have the footage, we know enough to decide who's a Hall of Famer. It seems absurd to me that someone would hold back on calling Gene Tunney (or Jim Jeffries) a HOFer simply because they haven't seen the film.

But hey, if everyone's ballots were the same, we wouldn't bother doing this, right?
OK guys(kidlefty,pundit), thinking about it you're quite right, I guess I am discriminating against pre 30's fighters. Considering that I've read enough and seen some footage of these guys, I would like to insert Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney in place of Saldivar and LaMotta. But I ain't giving up Matt Saad Muhammad for anyone!

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 23 May 2006, 00:48

Good call Flump!

Go ahead and edit your post for it to be official though.

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 24 May 2006, 13:51

One more day.

Ballots become official at 11:59 PM EST Thursday. At midnight, I start tallying.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 May 2006, 14:57

damn the pressure is on

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 24 May 2006, 15:51

I think I've put the final touches on mine, but I'll give it another look right before the deadline.

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 25 May 2006, 18:43

So is everybody happy with how their ballots read?

If you announced changes in the thread, PLEASE UPDATE YOUR ORIGINAL POST, or I cannot insure that your ballot will be counted in it's revised form.

Thanks, and good luck to all the great champions who await induction!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 25 May 2006, 22:42

Updated Ballot

LOU AMBERS
JIMMY BARRY
PANAMA AL BROWN
MARCEL CERDAN
ANTONIO CERVANTES
LES DARCY
JIM DRISCOLL
BOB FOSTER
KHAOSAI GALAXY
TOMMY GIBBONS
WILFREDO GOMEZ
JAMES J JEFFRIES
KID McCOY
PACKEY McFARLAND
TERRY McGOVERN
JIMMY McLARNIN
JOSE NAPOLES
PHILADELPHIA JACK O'BRIEN
CARLOS ORTIZ
PASCUAL PEREZ
TOMMY RYAN
SALVADOR SANCHEZ
GENE TUNNEY
PANCHO VILLA
CARLOS ZARATE

kidlefty · Post by **kidlefty** » 26 May 2006, 01:17

I'll start tallying tonight. Not sure of the final ballot total, but it looks like we've got a good number this round.