BoxRec

Yes. . . . watch the film of the fights.

actjac wrote: ↑10 May 2018, 20:44 Yes. . . . watch the film of the fights.

I'm truly amazed that the poll is almost even. To me it couldn't be more obvious.

This thread is the equivalent to seeing somebody shoot somebody in the face in broad daylight while shouting his name and why he's shooting you to hear audibly very clearly on camera, and they still don't convict him because "They don't have enough evidence"

Gilgemesh... You need to look at facts... Many people DO look at the facts before they draw conclusions... Many DON'T!!

FACT 1.... The Neutral Corner rule was in effect...

FACT 2... Liston had all day to get to his feet as long as Ali DIDN'T go to a neutral corner....because the count is SUSPENDED if the fighter scoring the knockdown DOESN'T go to a neutral corner .... until he DOES go there.

FACT 3... Ali DEFIED the Neutral Corner Rule and NEVER went to a neutral corner, risking disqualification.

FACT 4... Because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner Liston NEVER got a count... Ali, Liston, and Walcott all assumed correctly that the fight was still on when Liston got to his feet... Ali attacked Liston with a series of follow up punches that Liston easily slipped and ducked -- showing Sonny's reflexes were intact and he was unhurt by the knockdown punch... Though Liston was aging he had a solid chin. That was the FIRST knockdown he ever suffered in his life.

FACT 5... It's been established that there was NO Phantom Punch... Liston was hit with a sharp right with power behind it... The punch surprised him and caught him moving in and off balance, decking him... Ali was a 206-pound Heavyweight.

FACT 6... Liston executed scores of knockdowns himself... He had been tagged a couple time by fighters playing possum... He may have been pretending that he was hurt - to get a wide open shot at Ali as he attacked... Ali seemed to be taking the bait - throwing less than accurate follow up punches... Had the fight gone a few more seconds who knows?

FACT 7... Liston was defending himself well when the fight ended ... he was NOT diving for the canvas.

FACT 8... This was a Keystone Kops Production... Liston was the only principle figure who followed the rules and regs.

FACT 9... The doctor who examined Liston prior to the fight said he was in the best condition of any athlete he'd ever examined... It would be insane to train that hard for a fight you intended to lose...

FACT 10... Unlike Klitschko-Brewster 1, there were no unusual betting patterns prior to Ali-Liston 2.

FACT 11... Liston said he fell to the canvas again because he could sense and see Ali running at him from behind... He knew Ali was NOT in a neutral corner and that Ali went completely bonkers... "I have to put one hand on the canvas to get up -- so Clay could easily hit me as I was getting up... I was waiting for Walcott to get Clay to the neutral corner and give me the count.. It was nuts.. If I got a count I would have gotten up sooner.. Clay was out of control and that's why I wasn't getting a count, but I got up when he was a safe distance.. I wasn't hurt by the punch.. It surprised me."

FACT 12.... If you're ignorant about the Neutral Corner Rule, Howard Cosell and HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explain it at minute 23:00 to 23:35 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

FACT 13... There's nothing implausible about Liston not wanting to get up when he wasn't getting a count, and with Ali NOT in a neutral corner.. His explanations pass the smell test... He broke no rules of conduct, or Boxing rules... He got a royal screw job from Walcott, Fleischer, the timekeeper, the commissioners present and from the Maine Athletic Commission.

I've seen the video dozens of times Kalan. It's an open and shut case. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because nothing is going to tell me that my own eyes are wrong.

I'm perfectly aware of the neutral corner rule, and I don't need any explanation from Howard Cosell or anybody else about the obvious.

Ali stood over Liston hollering at him to get up because HE KNEW that Liston wasn't hurt, and was taking a dive, and was making HIM look bad because the people had paid to see a fight, not an act.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 01:24 Ali stood over Liston hollering at him to get up because HE KNEW that Liston wasn't hurt, and was taking a dive,

That's NOT why Ali stood over Liston... Ali's behavior was consistent... Rules did NOT apply to Ali.... His behavior was nothing new.... When he floored Bonavena he was supposed to IMMEDIATELY go to a neutral corner or the count is suspended.... except it wasn't again... Ali walked right THROUGH the referee like he owned him... LIke the referee was bought and paid for.
Start at 1:05:09 of this video as Bonavena hits the floor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEAUQnUdpE

The referee even puts his right hand in Ali's chest to hold him back.... At 1:05:15 of this video (as Ali is supposed to be in a neutral corner) you see Ali hacking the referee's arm away disrespectfully as he walks through him... The count isn't suspended... Ali must have known the Neutral Corner Rule WOULD NOT be enforced by the referees in both fights.

Can we put this disqualification stuff to bed once and for all?

There's no way any referee would disqualify a fighter for not going to a neutral corner unless they struck the other boxer while they were down or getting to their feet.

It would be a warning at worst.

Cannot believe we're still on this...WHO F$CKING CARES!!!!!!?????

ewenhay wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 05:43 There's no way any referee would disqualify a fighter for not going to a neutral corner unless they struck the other boxer while they were down or getting to their feet.

It would be a warning at worst.

If they didn't go to a neutral corner when order to they would be disqualified... Show me another boxer who wasn't..

Maybe you're seeing what you WANT to see because you're an Ali apologist and nut-hugger... Could that be the case?

If a boxer FAILS to go to a neutral corner the referee STOPS the count... They REDIRECT the fighter scoring the knockdown TO a neutral corner.... If he creeps out of the corner they tell him to GET BACK IN THE CORNER... The referee is there to enforce the rules... The neutral corner rule is a very important rule... If he DOESN'T enforce it, it's favoritism and corruption... Go to 23:00 to 23:35 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be for clarification.

If you watch 20,000 fights, you won't see ONE OTHER FIGHTER hack a referee's arm away after the referee puts a hand in his chest to hold him back, so he can give the opponent an unmolested 8-count... The boxer scoring the knockdown is COMPELLED BY THE RULES to go to a neutral corner... You won't find another instance of Ali's conduct -- because boxers respect the rules... They respect the referee... They don't get to toss out the rule book and defy the referee with impunity.

If you have no argument -- don't just say the rules don't matter and you could GAF less about the rules.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:08

ewenhay wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 05:43 There's no way any referee would disqualify a fighter for not going to a neutral corner unless they struck the other boxer while they were down or getting to their feet.

It would be a warning at worst.

Maybe you're seeing what you WANT to see because you're an Ali apologist and nut-hugger... Could that be the case?

If a boxer fails to go to a neutral corner the referee STOPS the count... They REDIRECT the fighter scoring the knockdown TO a neutral corner if he hasn't gone.... If he creeps out of the corner they tell him to GET BACK IN THE CORNER... The referee is there to enforce the rules... The neutral corner rule is a very important rule... If he DOESN'T enforce it, it's favoritism and corruption... Go to 23:00 to 23:35 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be for clarification.

If you watch 20,000 fights, you won't see ONE OTHER FIGHTER hack a referee's arm away after the referee puts a hand in his chest to hold him back, so he can give the opponent an unmolested 8-count, because the boxer scoring the knockdown is COMPELLED BY THE RULES to go to a neutral corner... You won't find another instance of Ali's conduct -- because boxers respect the rules... They respect the referee... They don't get to toss out the rule book and defy the referee with impunity.

If you have no argument -- just say the rules don't matter and you could GAF less about the rules.

Kalan - You've been defending this position for months. As if your life depended on it. Why please?

Because it boggles the mind that Ali got to defy the rule book... In the Bonavena fight he again didn't go to a neutral corner... NOT ONLY THAT, but he HACKED the referee's arm away while he was walking right through him.

I've NEVER seen another boxer get away with that conduct.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 12:15 Because it boggles the mind that Ali got to defy the rule book... In the Bonavena fight he again didn't go to a neutral corner... NOT ONLY THAT, but he HACKED the referee's arm away while he was walking right through him.

I've NEVER seen another boxer get away with that conduct.

You sound like my late father. He had such disdain for Ali due to reasons you allude to. Got away with murder he would say. Just askin' thanks!

Ali was a great human being... I'm not attacking him as a person... He was a dirty fighter for sure... He was over-the-top arrogant and cheated on his wives left and right.. Rules didn't apply to Ali.. He defied rules and conventions.. I knew a lot of guys who behaved like Ali but lacked the charisma.. It was no go.. Norton was a pain-in-the-ass who tried hard to be colorful and entertaining, but came off as a phony.. Foreman tried harder and eventually did become a fan favorite.

It's like John F Kennedy.. Charisma is something you're born with.. Some Charismatics like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Charles Manson actually DID get away with murder.. Their followers did anything they asked including commit murder.

Satan made his start as a charismatic Archangel named Lucifer... He seduced a great army of angles to rebel against God.. Hitler demanded absolute loyalty and planned to exercise absolute power over the entire world... Anyway, without getting too far afield, it's easy for charismatic people to abuse this power to a great degree... Ali certainly did.

I'll say one more time...not that it's gonna matter.

NO FIGHTER. EVER. IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT. HAS EVER BEEN DISQUALIFIED FOR NOT GOING TO THE NEUTRAL CORNER AFTER A KNOCKDOWN!

EVER!!!!!

Point deduction...maybe...Delayed count...maybe...DQ? There'd have been riots

Personally I've never even heard of a Point Deduction being issued about it.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:03 I'll say one more time...not that it's gonna matter.

NO FIGHTER. EVER. IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT. HAS EVER BEEN DISQUALIFIED FOR NOT GOING TO THE NEUTRAL CORNER AFTER A KNOCKDOWN!

EVER!!!!!

Point deduction...maybe...Delayed count...maybe...DQ? There'd have been riots

Just ask Dempsey...

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:03 NO FIGHTER. EVER. IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT. HAS EVER BEEN DISQUALIFIED FOR NOT GOING TO THE NEUTRAL CORNER AFTER A KNOCKDOWN!

YOU don't know that... It's probably happened...

They certainly WOULD HAVE if they defied the rule for the entire count... NOBODY else ever defied the referee like that.

Told ya'll it wasn't gonna matter ^

Kalan's never wrong according to Kalan.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:14

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:03 NO FIGHTER. EVER. IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT. HAS EVER BEEN DISQUALIFIED FOR NOT GOING TO THE NEUTRAL CORNER AFTER A KNOCKDOWN!

They certainly WOULD HAVE if they defied the rule for the entire count... NOBODY else ever defied the referee like that.

Kalan - I've yet to see you post, "I was wrong"; or "Wow, I didn't know that"; or '"I just learned something:" or "You were right."

It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So?

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So deduct a point from him...and nothing changes.

The dive is still taken, and the result is still the same.

DQ him and there would've been a riot. 100% guaranteed.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:20

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So deduct a point from him...and nothing changes.

The dive is still taken, and the result is still the same.

DQ him and there would've been a riot. 100% guaranteed.

DQ would've prompted an overturning of that decision, had it happened.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:20

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So deduct a point from him...and nothing changes.

The dive is still taken, and the result is still the same.

DQ him and there would've been a riot. 100% guaranteed.

There would have been NO riot.... The crowd would have cheered their brains out.... They didn't like Ali up in Lewiston.

oogiebe wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:21

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:20

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So deduct a point from him...and nothing changes.

The dive is still taken, and the result is still the same.

DQ him and there would've been a riot. 100% guaranteed.

DQ would've prompted an overturning of that decision, had it happened.

It would've been a riot sure as you were born. There would've been NO grounds for a DQ. It would've been unprecedented, and people would've RIGHTLY been absolutely FURIOUS that they got ripped off.

They probably weren't too happy about the way it all went down anyway for that matter, but that would've REALLY pissed 'em off.

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:22

gilgamesh wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:20

Kalan wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 14:17 It doesn't matter to me who's right or wrong.... Ali was wrong for defying the referee and YOU KNOW IT!!!!!

So deduct a point from him...and nothing changes.

The dive is still taken, and the result is still the same.

DQ him and there would've been a riot. 100% guaranteed.

There would have been NO riot.... The crowd would have cheered their brains out.... They didn't like Ali up in Lewiston.

They might have, but there was no grounds for Disqualification. Period. End of Discussion.