Monzon: The Greatest MW of all time? as told by Mike Casey

[Kalan]

Alas, I have him on ignore so any direct responses go unread. Since he dominates every forum and gets quoted constantly I scan some of his nonsense. Like I just noticed that evidently Leonard never fought Marcos Geraldo

Both Leonard and Hagler boxed Marcos Geraldo... Neither could knock him down or hurt him... Geraldo was Knocked OUT 10 times previously by harder hitters.

[Kalan]

Alas, I have him on ignore so any direct responses go unread. Since he dominates every forum and gets quoted constantly I scan some of his nonsense. Like I just noticed that evidently Leonard never fought Marcos Geraldo

Both Leonard and Hagler boxed Marcos Geraldo... Neither could knock him down or hurt him... Geraldo was Knocked OUT 10 times previously by harder hitters.

I just noticed that Leonard evidently DID fight Geraldo on 1979-05-20 ... and Hagler fought him 1980-05-17... Geraldo was a popular cherry-pick

[Kalan]

I'm not saying Rodrigo Valdez was a better fighter than Hagler because he knocked Briscoe out.. Valdez was a very powerful puncher who knocked Carlos Monzon down twice, for maybe the only knockdowns Monzon suffered.. I don't remember Monzon getting knocked down by anybody else... Valdez was faster, harder punching and more talented than Hagler, but Hag had a stronger work ethic and more consistency.. so I think he was greater than Valdez.. Hagler has a 12-1 record in World Title Defenses which is a lot better than Rodrigo Valdez.. Valdez had a 29-fight winning streak going into Monzon 1... After losing to Monzon twice and Corro twice he bagged it at 30... Valdez thought he won all 4 of those fights and that definitely did not happen.. He had over 70 fights but had a lot of Boxing left in him.. He just gave up the ghost and quit training.

[dagosd2000]

Taking Care Of Business

One thing that always strikes me about a boxing gym is the respect fighters have for their fellow pugilists,present and past.Oh, a fighter might be boasting or even revving it up to the level of trash talking about how he's going to dispense of his next opponent,but more often than not a fighter knows he's in a sport where at any moment inside the ring he could be rendered with an injury that would leave him crippled for life.Then there's always the possibility of not leaving the ring alive.Muhammad Ali always had the greatest accolades to say after fighting Joe Frazier.

So there's not much room for the cynic feeling welcome in the gym . I read some of these threads on the forum and people are calling champions "bums".Lots of demeaning comments about champions.To some, fighting might look like it isn't that difficult, to at least become proficient at,but they couldn't be farther from the reality.I've known street toughs that thought they could knock the blocks off of the local fighters in the various boxing clubs in town.They ask the a trainer if they could test themselves against any of the boys in the gym.Of course a trainer is always looking for that cash cow so I've never seen any aspirant turned away. But shortly after that "dreamer" gets in there with an experienced fighter the truth results in the receiving end of a peppering of punches.The "wanna be" isn't even thinking of mounting an offensive. It's a struggle to just keep his gloves up for three minutes.I've seen it so many times.A guy that's a winner in a bar brawl is reduced to a whimpering puppy squinting through swollen eyes and spitting out a bloody mouthpiece after thinking that was what he was going to do to the other guy.It's not only a ball buster,but an ego crusher as well.Boxing is a sport where there is no room for error.You can go out and party the night before a basketball game and the next day score a triple double. Doesn't work that way with boxing.Could have asked Mando Ramos about how last night's revelries affected hin when he lost the title to Chango Carmona.

When you see an athlete like LeBron James dominate his sport of basketball,it doesn't translate into him mastering any other sport,especially boxing.All the years LeBron spent honing his craft in the local school yards was what made him the best. Of course he has the physical attributes,but he could have never have reached that pinnacle without countless hours of practice.Then there's the intangible,desire.But LeBron has that drive for basketball,but another sport? In order for him to take on another sport and become great at it there wouldn't be all that time to perfect all the other skills.Just the mental effort would be overwhelming.He may take up golf and be competitive with his pals,but he's never going shoot round under a Jason Spieth.Think of all the years Spieth worked at mastering and maintaining his playing level.Michael Jordan thought he could play major league baseball. He was just a mediocre player in single A ball.

So now you're probably thinking that I have this Ali/Chamberlain "discussion" in the back of my mind. I do,but I'm not going over to that side if the thread that's degenerated to the personal level. Besides,everyone has their minds already made up. No one is going to change the other guy's mind,and if they can't, they become insulting.

So let me put it this way.If I was to carry on in a boxing gym about how Wilt Chamberlain could have kicked Muhammad Ali's ass inside the ring,I'd probably be asked to vacate the premises.Maybe I'd get the cold shoulder treatment if I was lucky.But then again maybe they'd be tired of me talking out my pie hole get an invite to step up into the ring a to get my butt kicked, and get my trap shut for once for all.All this coulda shoulda woulda is stuff for the barrooms, and unfortunately for BoxRec.



Muhammad Ali

[dagosd2000]

I just realized that I posted on the Monzon thread. My bad. Well ,at least I didn't step into it by sounding off on the Ali/Chamberlain war going on .

[Kalan]

So let me put it this way.If I was to carry on in a boxing gym about how Wilt Chamberlain could have kicked Muhammad Ali's ass inside the ring,I'd probably be asked to vacate the premises

No you wouldn't... Some boxers would agree with you and others wouldn't... It's not personal who you think would win a boxing match -- and a boxer is more likely to listen to another boxer's viewpoint than listen to an ordinary ignorant fan.. The reason is, he's interested in learning and perfecting his craft.. If you have a piece of advice he hasn't heard before he's anxious to hear it. Some of the things the best boxers completely understand are: height, weight, reach, range, speed, strength, punching power, intelligence, and overall athleticism... and the great athletes who have them and the ones who don't... They know it's very hard to beat an outstandingly big, tall, strong, powerfully built, hard punching, speedy, and supremely gifted athlete.

[BoxBuzz]

You sound somewhat sensible at times. Nearly lifelike.

Then you turn around and attempt to sell us that Gorilla Monsoon mugged Ali for real.



I want to separate the wheat from the chaff when you contribute, but it's like their epoxied together.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Enough buzz, ban the troll. We all wish this forum was more lively but not like this. Not that I'm the most important cog in this wheel but I'm going to leave again if this buffoon remains.

[Kalan]

It's ALL wheat... You just have to expand your mind, suppress your ignorance and prejudice, and be open to more possibilities... because what you consider unlikely or impossible might, in fact, be the truth.

It's like Nicolaus Copernicus... Even scientists thought Copernicus was wrong and had gone off the deep end... how can anything but the Earth be the center of the solar system???? After all you can SEE the sun rise in the mornings and set in the evenings on the opposite horizon... It's plain as day that the Earth is the center of the solar system and anybody who thinks anything different is just an idiot!!! ... That kind of limited thinking is what Nicolaus Copernicus faced... People weren't ready for the truth.. They couldn't handle it because everybody KNEW the Mother Earth was stationary and it was the SUN moved around the Earth.

Nowadays it seems idiotic for anyone to believe Earth is the center of the solar system, but in the 15th century that was the prevailing viewpoint. How could mother Earth NOT be the center of all things??? People often aren't ready for the truth.. That's why there's massive upsets in Boxing.

[Kalan]

Enough buzz, ban the troll. We all wish this forum was more lively but not like this. Not that I'm the most important cog in this wheel but I'm going to leave again if this buffoon remains.

SaadSack... The sooner you leave the happier everybody will be... GTFO, GTH, GFY, and ESABATM you stupid, hateful, bastard

[BoxBuzz]

It's ALL wheat... You just have to expand your mind, suppress your ignorance and prejudice, and be open to more possibilities... because what you consider unlikely or impossible might, in fact, be the truth.

It's like Nicolaus Copernicus... Even scientists thought Copernicus was wrong and had gone off the deep end... how can anything but the Earth be the center of the solar system???? After all you can SEE the sun rise in the mornings and set in the evenings on the opposite horizon... It's plain as day that the Earth is the center of the solar system and anybody who thinks anything different is just an idiot!!! ... That kind of limited thinking is what Nicolaus Copernicus faced... People weren't ready for the truth.. They couldn't handle it because everybody KNEW the Mother Earth was stationary and it was the SUN moved around the Earth.

Nowadays it seems idiotic for anyone to believe Earth is the center of the solar system, but in the 15th century that was the prevailing viewpoint. How could mother Earth NOT be the center of all things??? People often aren't ready for the truth.. That's why there's massive upsets in Boxing.

uh....this just in......the earth IS the center of the universe. So those primitives had it right.

However, in an odd ironic turn of events.....so is everything else.

[Kalan]

Learn to read Buzz... and get your brain in gear before you post... The Sun is the center of the Solar System...not the universe.

And right now we don't have telescopes powerful enough to define the edges of the Universe because it's too vast to scope out...so we can’t tell where the center is.. We don’t have any idea if the Andromeda Galaxy is closer to the center of the Universe or the Milky Way.. It could be 200 years before we know where the center of the universe is so it seem humans are an ignorant species. We don’t know something pretty simple because we can’t see far enough. So naturally there are some people who can't admit to human ignorance so they say "everywhere and anywhere is the center of the Universe."

[BoxBuzz]

Learn to read Buzz... and get your brain in gear before you post... The Sun is the center of the Solar System...not the universe.

And right now we don't have telescopes powerful enough to define the edges of the Universe because it's too vast to scope out...so we can’t tell where the center is.. We don’t have any idea if the Andromeda Galaxy is closer to the center of the Universe or the Milky Way.. It could be 200 years before we know where the center of the universe is so it seem humans are an ignorant species. We don’t know something pretty simple because we can’t see far enough. So naturally there are some people who can't admit to human ignorance so they say "everywhere and anywhere is the center of the Universe."

Unless of course it actually is infinite. Like your ability to pedal baloney.

[Kalan]

Peddling BS is your specialty Dork...

If the Universe where infinite we'd see a white sky at night, since light travels many times faster than the expansion of the universe... We know it's finite because we don't see a white sky... We don't know how big it is... We don't know where the center is... We don't know everything about dark matter...

[Kalan]

We also don't know everything about the sub atomic world... That's why we haven't shut down all the atom smashers because we're still learning... We don't know everything... We shouldn't pretend to know everything by putting theories out there that "everywehere" is the center of the Universe.. If humankind has learned anything, it's that things we thought were great theories turn out to be crap.

[BoxBuzz]

We also don't know everything about the sub atomic world... That's why we haven't shut down all the atom smashers because we're still learning... We don't know everything... We shouldn't pretend to know everything by putting theories out there that "everywehere" is the center of the Universe.. If humankind has learned anything, it's that things we thought were great theories turn out to be crap.

crappy theories exist? Seriously? ....well of course they do, if the universe is infinite, I would imagine that they must exist......


I wonder if we can find one or two right here on this forum?

[Kalan]

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

[BoxBuzz]

Don't be disrespecting the south. It's the best part of philadelphia

[Counter-puncher]

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

parklife!

[Teddy's Toupee]

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

parklife!

"Back of the net!"

[PredatorHayds]

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

parklife!

I sang this in Phil Daniels style and it fits perfectly.

[PredatorHayds]

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

parklife!

It's not all about the Wilt Chamberlain technique you know
Or Valeros beaten record that goes round and round and round and round

[cfang]

Haha great stuff! It's got nothing to do with
Vorsprung durch Technik you know

Sigh... Human intellect is the genesis of proud civilizations, where it carried out its collective march towards a better tomorrow. The creative manifestations of great minds brought us from dark and dingy ghettos to the luminous urbanity of the present day... And then BuzzBox was born and it all went south.

parklife!

It's not all about the Wilt Chamberlain technique you know
Or Valeros beaten record that goes round and round and round and round

[Kalan]

You're off subject... And what beaten record??? Valero was undefeated with a 100% KO ratio... Only one Champ can match that... Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant athlete in sports history - but he was denied his shot by a scared Ali https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

But this is about History's Greatest Middleweight: Gennady Golovkin... Monzon fought 12 fights he DIDN'T win... GGG fought ZERO fights he didn't win

Carlos Monzon's record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 14-0 with 9 KO's...

Gennady Golovkin's record in Middleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO's

Rodrigo Valdez went the distance twice with Monzon and knocked him on his can twice... I don't see Valdez going 12 with GGG on his best day.

[BoxBuzz]

Monzon would enjoy the fight and take the win over GGG. You're having yourself a daydream.

Need to calibrate. This is not the astral plane.