BoxRec

pundit wrote:

Decagon wrote:But in your argument against Byrd, you have concentrated on his losses when he was past his prime.

Byrd never had a prime. Whenever he stepped up to fight a big reasonably skilled heavyweight, he got spanked like a schoolboy.

Sounds kinda like Vitali's career.

The Great John L wrote:

pundit wrote:...Vitali would be an all-time great, to the chagrin of some).

Really?? How so?

pundit wrote:2004-2006 Vitali Klitschko (retired in early 2006)
2006- Vlad Klitschko (since the Byrd win)

Hmmm, I noticed that you had used the very logical VACANT before, but obviously you are looking to start another flame war? 8)

Seventy-something percent..... the issue is settled.

The Great John L wrote:

pundit wrote:

Decagon wrote:But in your argument against Byrd, you have concentrated on his losses when he was past his prime.

Byrd never had a prime. Whenever he stepped up to fight a big reasonably skilled heavyweight, he got spanked like a schoolboy.

Sounds kinda like Vitali's career.

SOUNDS but isn't.... as noone ever spanked Vitali.

Decagon wrote:He's only fought two top heavyweights, and he lost both fights. If he hadn't been such a pussy, he probably would've been spanked more often.

It's like a well-trained laboratory mouse -- you write "Vitali", and Decagon jumps.

pundit wrote:

Decagon wrote:He's only fought two top heavyweights, and he lost both fights. If he hadn't been such a pussy, he probably would've been spanked more often.

It's like a well-trained laboratory mouse -- you write "Vitali", and Decagon jumps.

I jumped too...

It's the way you work your hero into each and every thread. Excellent work!!

The Great John L wrote:

pundit wrote:

Decagon wrote:He's only fought two top heavyweights, and he lost both fights. If he hadn't been such a pussy, he probably would've been spanked more often.

It's like a well-trained laboratory mouse -- you write "Vitali", and Decagon jumps.

I jumped too...

It's the way you work your hero into each and every thread. Excellent work!!

I told you I had figured you out....

Jack Johnson stopped fighting top competition after beating Burns. He cannot lay claim to being the worlds best heavyweight post-1908 because he failed to fight the top fighters in the division whereas Langford did and was very dominant up until 1914 but still held his own till around 1916.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Jack Johnson stopped fighting top competition after beating Burns. He cannot lay claim to being the worlds best heavyweight post-1908 because he failed to fight the top fighters in the division whereas Langford did and was very dominant up until 1914 but still held his own till around 1916.

Hmmm. I would consider Jim Jeffries in 1910 top competition, even if Jeffries came out of retirement for this.

Jeffries had not fought in years. He was past his prime and had not beaten any top contenders in about 7 years.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Jeffries had not fought in years. He was past his prime and had not beaten any top contenders in about 7 years.

Well, less than 6 years (still a long period), but he was still considered the white heavyweight most likely to beat Johnson.

pundit wrote:

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Jack Johnson stopped fighting top competition after beating Burns. He cannot lay claim to being the worlds best heavyweight post-1908 because he failed to fight the top fighters in the division whereas Langford did and was very dominant up until 1914 but still held his own till around 1916.

Hmmm. I would consider Jim Jeffries in 1910 top competition, even if Jeffries came out of retirement for this.

how was jeffries top competition? jeffries was so shot in 1910 he didnt even have enough left in the tank to beat contenders anymore.


what had jeffries done to prove hes top competition?



holmes proved he was still top competition in the early 1990 by beating top ranked ray mercer


joe louis proved he was still top competition in 1950 by dominating 8 fighters in a row, 6 vs ranked contenders

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

pundit wrote:

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Jack Johnson stopped fighting top competition after beating Burns. He cannot lay claim to being the worlds best heavyweight post-1908 because he failed to fight the top fighters in the division whereas Langford did and was very dominant up until 1914 but still held his own till around 1916.

Hmmm. I would consider Jim Jeffries in 1910 top competition, even if Jeffries came out of retirement for this.

how was jeffries top competition? jeffries was so shot in 1910 he didnt even have enough left in the tank to beat contenders anymore.

How do you know, as Jeffries went straight to Johnson?

Anyway, I'm not gonna lose sleep over this. If someones believes Langford took over from Johnson as #1 earlier than 1912 I can live with that.

Considering Johnson's title oppossition it is indisputable that Langford was fighting better competition (Jeannette, McVey) than Johnson was by 1909.

pundit wrote:
1935-1947 Joe Louis (takes over with knockout of Baer. Schmeling loss cost him but he was still considered the best heavyweight)

hmm...I think otherwise (but in general I like your list).

1935-1936 Joe Louis
1936-1938 Max Schmeling
from 1938 Joe Louis

Louis himself said:"I'm not Champion till I beat Max Schmeling"
Especially in Europe Schmeling was considered as the best Heavyweight after the 1936 fight. It was no "lucky" but a very souvereign win. And in 1937/38 Max had some more good fights to held his reputation as best Heavyweight by a K.o. over later Heavyweight Contender Harry Thomas and two more good wins over former Empire-Champion Ben Foord and Steve Dudas.

The outcome of 1938 Schmeling vs Louis was clear but I think the predictions weren't. If you would have ask most experts short after June 19, 1936 they would have said Schmeling is Number One I guess. In retrospective it is another thing. I for myself consider Louis as best Heavyweight ever.

Rating Schmeling as best Heavyweight between 1931-1933 and 1936-1938 I consider him about All-Time Number 12 in Heavyweight History.

Louis- Heavy handed first and then flash with it.
Ali- Flash style and surprisingly heavy handed...GREAT, RARE, LITERALLY ONE IN A MILLION PUBLIC SPEAKER
Holyfield- Right hand, left hand, footwork, jab, chin...he rates above average in all categories, like no other heavyweight champion ever has...Ali couldn't come close to Holyfield's left hook, for example...Marciano, for all his Suzie Q, seriously moves like Quasimodo next to Holyfield...etc. and so on...that's why Holyfield was so great for so long (and of course his longevity was second to none, right? right. above average, at least)

Kilimanjaro
Chuck Gardner
Johnny Paycheck
Johnny Ruiz
Butterbean
Wade Lewis
Joe Grim
Chris Byrd
Josh Cobb
Marvis Frazier


controversially omitted JD Chapman

Friedie wrote:

pundit wrote:
1935-1947 Joe Louis (takes over with knockout of Baer. Schmeling loss cost him but he was still considered the best heavyweight)

hmm...I think otherwise (but in general I like your list).

1935-1936 Joe Louis
1936-1938 Max Schmeling
from 1938 Joe Louis

Louis himself said:"I'm not Champion till I beat Max Schmeling"
Especially in Europe Schmeling was considered as the best Heavyweight after the 1936 fight. It was no "lucky" but a very souvereign win. And in 1937/38 Max had some more good fights to held his reputation as best Heavyweight by a K.o. over later Heavyweight Contender Harry Thomas and two more good wins over former Empire-Champion Ben Foord and Steve Dudas.

The outcome of 1938 Schmeling vs Louis was clear but I think the predictions weren't. If you would have ask most experts short after June 19, 1936 they would have said Schmeling is Number One I guess. In retrospective it is another thing. I for myself consider Louis as best Heavyweight ever.

Rating Schmeling as best Heavyweight between 1931-1933 and 1936-1938 I consider him about All-Time Number 12 in Heavyweight History.

Fair point. Can be seen either way, I guess.

pundit..........if ur going to make harry wills the best out there 1916-23........why not make sam langford the best out there 1908-1916????


you make a big deal on dempsey not fighting wills....wut about jack johnson not fighting langford, jeanette, mcvea 1908-1915


as for 1928-29 george godfrey or jack sharkey is the pick. with godfrey's size, power, speed and all around talent he was the best heavyweight out there.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:pundit..........if ur going to make harry wills the best out there 1916-23........why not make sam langford the best out there 1908-1916????


you make a big deal on dempsey not fighting wills....wut about jack johnson not fighting langford, jeanette, mcvea 1908-1915


as for 1928-29 george godfrey or jack sharkey is the pick. with godfrey's size, power, speed and all around talent he was the best heavyweight out there.

Neither the takeover date from Johnson to Langford nor the date from Wills to Dempsey is clear. Johnson-Langford happened some time between 1908 and 1912, although I'd be reluctant to do this before the Jeffries fight - one of the maybe 3, 4 most anticipated fights of the 20th century. Wills to Dempsey happened some time between 1919 and 1924. I can live with any date in these ranges.

1928-29 I'd probably pick Sharkey in case of doubt, followed by Godfrey and Risko.

here are my choices

1889-1894 Peter Jackson
1894-1897 James Corbett
1897-1899 Bob Fitzsimmons
1899-1904 Jim Jeffries
1905-1908 Jack Johnson
1908-1915 Sam Langford
1915-1919 Harry Wills
1919-1923 Jack Dempsey
1923-1926 George Godfrey- i cant include dempsey since he was inactive
1926-1928 Gene Tunney- though tunney did duck godfrey and failed to fight sharkey and gains. Sharkey could easily take tunneys place since sharkey beat better opposition during this period and proved himself more.
1928-1930 Jack Sharkey
1930-1932 Max Schmeling
1932-1933 Jack Sharkey
1933-1935 Max Baer
1935-1947 Joe Louis
1947-1948 Jersey Joe Walcott
1948-1949 Joe Louis
1949-1951 Ezzard Charles
1951-1952 Jersey Joe Walcott
1952-1956 Rocky Marciano
1956-1958 Floyd Patterson- patterson never ducked anybody. it was Damato who did. patterson would have killed folley and machen. in fact patterson did kill machen when they fought.
1958-1964 Sonny Liston
1964-1967 Muhammad Ali
1967-1973 Joe Frazier
1973-1974 George Foreman
1974-1978 Muhammad Ali
1978-1985 Larry Holmes
1985-1986 Michael Spinks
1986-1990 Mike Tyson
1990-1992 Evander Holyfield
1992-1993 Riddick Bowe
1993-1994 Evander Holyfield
1994-1996 Riddick Bowe
1996-1999 Evander Holyfield
1999-2004 Lennox Lewis
2004-2006 Chris Bryd
2006- Wlad Klitschko

pundit wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:pundit..........if ur going to make harry wills the best out there 1916-23........why not make sam langford the best out there 1908-1916????


you make a big deal on dempsey not fighting wills....wut about jack johnson not fighting langford, jeanette, mcvea 1908-1915


as for 1928-29 george godfrey or jack sharkey is the pick. with godfrey's size, power, speed and all around talent he was the best heavyweight out there.

Neither the takeover date from Johnson to Langford nor the date from Wills to Dempsey is clear. Johnson-Langford happened some time between 1908 and 1912, although I'd be reluctant to do this before the Jeffries fight - one of the maybe 3, 4 most anticipated fights of the 20th century. Wills to Dempsey happened some time between 1919 and 1924. I can live with any date in these ranges.

1928-29 I'd probably pick Sharkey in case of doubt, followed by Godfrey and Risko.

not risko. larry gains was much better than risko. he would be the 3rd choice. larry gains was an excellent fighter.

Mostly nice choices.

You're right about D'Amato.

The Schmeling-Sharkey era is hard to rank, as the argualby better fighter lost both of their encounters (Sharkey 1930, Schmeling 1932).

Gains? I thought he peaked in the early 1930s. And Godfrey from 1923?? He wasn't a contneder before 1925. If anyone you have to put Wills back in for these years.

pundit wrote:Mostly nice choices.

You're right about D'Amato.

The Schmeling-Sharkey era is hard to rank, as the argualby better fighter lost both of their encounters (Sharkey 1930, Schmeling 1932).

Gains? I thought he peaked in the early 1930s. And Godfrey from 1923?? He wasn't a contneder before 1925. If anyone you have to put Wills back in for these years.

some say gains peaked in the early 1930s but I think gains wasnt much different from the gains in the late 1920s. Gains certainly was still one of the best heavyweight contenders in the world in the 1920s. in 1928 i would have picked him over risko. gains was a damm good boxer with an excellent left jab. picking risko certainly isnt ludicrous as risko was a very good contender, but i think gains was in a higher class.



Harry wills openly ducked george godfrey in 1924-26. this is a fact. wills was old and he knew he couldnt beat the young George Godfrey but wills wanted to keep the status as the best black heavyweight out there so he avoided godfrey

In periods in which some of the top guys never fight each other it can be a bit diffiuclt to establish who the best is but I try to go on the basis of who is most consistent against quality oppossition.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:In periods in which some of the top guys never fight each other it can be a bit diffiuclt to establish who the best is but I try to go on the basis of who is most consistent against quality oppossition.

Go ahead, buddy. Curious to see your list.