Cooper/Ali(Clay)

[Brutu]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

I will consider it if Evenb produces and downloads on youtube
the original televised film/video(that includes the credits
of whichever show it was shown on originally in Britain).

That may take a long time as it is on VHS and i have no facilities to convert.....im sorry. If you dont believe then fair enough...i have told you what I know...

Does it have any type of credits within it?

[evrenb]

I will consider it if Evenb produces and downloads on youtube
the original televised film/video(that includes the credits
of whichever show it was shown on originally in Britain).[/quote]

That may take a long time as it is on VHS and i have no facilities to convert.....im sorry. If you dont believe then fair enough...i have told you what I know...[/quote]
Does it have any type of credits within it?[/quote]
I havent viewed in a while...I know for certainty that there was no on screen graphics, no pre presentation from post fight or over commentaries etc....i looked into this big time a few years ago and supplied the fight to Tony Fosco...I obtained the film from an english collector who obtained directly from BBC. When the article came up in boxing news a few years back I retimed the whole thing with my original copy. Myself and Tony were sure that the footage was not edited/respliced etc....and if Tony said that who am i to say??

[Controversial]

I will consider it if Evenb produces and downloads on youtube
the original televised film/video(that includes the credits
of whichever show it was shown on originally in Britain).

Does it have any type of credits within it?

What difference would it make, surely if it was a cover up sticking credits onto it wouldn't be difficult, doesn't prove anything. Whats more weird is why you think it was covered up?

[BoxBuzz]

Well, anything longer than approximately a 66 second rest period, simply did not happen. It's hard to prove a negative, but rather easy to prove that the 1 minute break, and about 5-6 seconds of managing a quick communication by the ref is the story in it's entirety.

Who would really care to change these facts? It simply is what it is. Aye yi yi yi,, we live in such a conspiratorial age. How do you know your daddy is your daddy? Cuz your mama told you so! lol.

[Controversial]

Has Brutu considered the fact he cannot track down anything mentioning the delay is because it was so insignificant the press never bothered to mention it?

[evrenb]

Its a legend that has evolved over time...If Henry Cooper told you it minutes you are not going to turn around to him and say 'no it wasn't' lol..unless you wanted an 'enry 'ammer...or if he told you ali's reach was 90 you wouldnt say 'how do you know?' I remember that quote and it made me chuckle - heard him say it many times actually. He used to live about 14 miles from me in Crowborough...a great man...

[Controversial]

Exactly, just like a fisherman's tale. Henry made his money after boxing with after dinner speeches and personal appearances. Lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Brutu]

That may take a long time as it is on VHS and i have no facilities to convert.....im sorry. If you dont believe then fair enough...i have told you what I know...

Hey evenb,
I believe that you believe that you have the unedited complete version that was taken directly from the master copy video-tape or film of Clay vs Cooper 1963.
But since its still on VHS,can you please tell us at least what the running time of the tape is,
from the second the first image appears to minute and seconds the last image appears on it?
What is the first image and what is the last image on it?

[evrenb]

Hey I will try to do this...i will get hold of a vhs player and run it...off to cyprus tues nite so when I return...what is ur point though?

[Controversial]

Was the fight shown live on normal TV or in cinemas?

[Brutu]

If it is a complete transmission it should have both fighters ring walk
(with Ali wearing a crown,robe and scepter)
also the ring introductions and the ref announcing the winner.

[evrenb]

If it is a complete transmission it should have both fighters ring walk
(with Ali wearing a crown,robe and scepter)
also the ring introductions and the ref announcing the winner.

That isnt relevant to whether I have the complete fight...nonsense...if youre paying £30 a minute you get the relevant footage..
The fight is in full but I understand you have a very suspicious, disbelieving nature so I will leave you with it....its similar to try and reason with my 2 year old daughter - sheesh!!
She accused me of showing her an edited version of Peppa Pig the other day and I had to put a stopwatch on it to prove that it was exactly 5 minutes...first her now Brutu !

[Controversial]

evrenb was it shown on live TV do you know?

[Brutu]

Well then does the video have at least the ref giving instructions before they go to their corners for the bell to ring for the first round and the ref raising Ali's arm after the results are announced?
(and handing back his crown,robe and septer).

[Brutu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frn3rTj5DOY

[evrenb]

evrenb was it shown on live TV do you know?

There is only one version I know and that is BBC live broadcast as called by Harry Carpenter...The second bout has varying version such as live us broadcast, live british broadcast and a 'film' version.

Regarding the first fight all variations you see are taken from the original BBC broadcast and rebroadcast almost always edited....

I am unsure if it was shown in British cinemas - I think this is unlikely.

regards

[evrenb]

Well then does the video have at least the ref giving instructions before they go to their corners for the bell to ring for the first round and the ref raising Ali's arm after the results are announced?
(and handing back his crown,robe and septer).

I really cant remember.. I will review it when I return if i can get my hands on a vhs player. At the time I spent considerable amount of time researching and obtaining this fight and establishing the time delay...Tony wanted the complete version..as far as he was concerned he believed it to be unedited. (in terms of boxing/round length). I also supplied him with the live call of clay vs moore which was as rare as rocking horse shit at the time.

The version you have linked is a csn rebroadcast edit of original footage.
Sorry I can not help you straight away.

[evrenb]

In case you havent seen the live moore fight , ali is so sharp - the picture is great and the sound is fantastic and you get a real sense of ali's speed, sharpness and combination that footage of his other early fights do not reveal...just awesome...

[Brutu]

well no doubt the ring walks were either televised or filmed.
Especially with all the celebrities that were in attendence.
I wonder if any old time British boxers came into the ring
for the announcer to say their names like the old traditions
of boxing that they use to do at big fights up until 1976.

[Brutu]

Was the fight shown live on normal TV or in cinemas?

I know the Bugner vrs Cooper fight was also shown live on closed-circuit in several theatres in London as well.
Also live across the UK on the BBC radio.The video tape was played on BBC-TV later that week.
Maybe it was the same with Clay-Cooper as it was a major sporting event too.

[evrenb]

well no doubt the ring walks were either televised or filmed.
Especially with all the celebrities that were in attendence.
I wonder if any old time British boxers came into the ring
for the announcer to say their names like the old traditions
of boxing that they use to do at big fights up until 1976.

I am intrigued myself...I dont recall that so often in british rings...if i had to guess the footage starts at the beginning of the first round....I am 100% it is full , i am 100% it is not a rebroadcast, I am 100% that there are no onscreen graphics...thats what I remember....

[Brutu]

well no doubt the ring walks were either televised or filmed.
Especially with all the celebrities that were in attendence.
I wonder if any old time British boxers came into the ring
for the announcer to say their names like the old traditions
of boxing that they use to do at big fights up until 1976.

I am intrigued myself...I dont recall that so often in british rings...if i had to guess the footage starts at the beginning of the first round....I am 100% it is full , i am 100% it is not a rebroadcast, I am 100% that there are no onscreen graphics...thats what I remember....

Could be the footage from BIG FIGHTS INC,before either
THE CLASSIC SPORTS NETWORK or ESPN CLASSIC purchased the rights
and plastered their logos all over it.

[evrenb]

Could be the footage from BIG FIGHTS INC,before either
THE CLASSIC SPORTS NETWORK or ESPN CLASSIC purchased the rights
and plastered their logos all over it.[/quote]

As it was obtained from the BBC I would say no...as there are no big fight logos/graphics between rounds I would say no...as there was no voice ove from Jimmy Jacobs at the end of the fight I would say no...there is nothing to suggest this....I definitely would not have purchased a big fights version for the money I paid...
eb

[Brutu]

Maybe the BBC obtained their copy from the archives of BIG FIGHTS INC.?
(just like they had to purchase back prints of DOCTOR WHO from across the world).

[BoxBuzz]

That film on youtube is all you need to settle the debate. Not that there ever was a debate.

Unless you really think the moment where the shading changes (a number of reasons could account for this) is where the "mystery" is hidden.....

Director screams "Ok everybody CUT!!!!" (waits for 5 minutes for Clay to back into shape)

Director again screams (Places everyone...right back where you were) filming begins again.....secret kept!