BoxRec

Andy Mac wrote:

stujones wrote:I think we should wait untill the DLH fight before we judge if Floyd Mayweather simply isn't good enough to be considered the GOAT. At the MOMENT, I think Floyds level of opponent (as good as it was at Super Feather and Light) to put him in consideration. He's done very little wrong.

For me he is the most skillful fighter of his generation, and I DO include Roy Jones in that. Although, Mayweather needs to prove it - and for its the DLH fight that is the ultimate acid test.

Yes, PN - I think an arguement can be made that if Floyd jumps back down two devisions and fights Hatton that will be some achievement (ala what Jones did Ruiz then Tarver) - then that will be a massive factor on his legacy. Cotto at 147 isn't a massive achievement yet, Cotto is just a fledgling champion - whose done nowt, same with Margarito (although he has been a champion for 5 years). Mosley (as the guy who apparently had DLH's number) will be a definate enhancer of his legacy.

James, I don't even think the Barkley's fight was Duran's best performance at Middleweight - his honourable loss to Hagler was better. I can see where you are coming from, but your taking into account ALL other factors (age, prior form etc).... It was his best "achievment", just like the Rumble in the Jungle was Ali's - but for neither was it their best performance.

Again you criticise Floyd's weight hoping, but please can you clarify. He fought the #1 147 and the most guy who posed the most offensively. Had he not faced those he would have been criticised. His 140 tenour was dissapointing no doubt - He could have got something with Casa and Freitas at Super Feather - but again, he was active and never had a bum in that weight and did geniunally outgrow the devision, but you cannot fault his lightweight rain. I cannot think of a fighter Floyd avoided - Juan Lazcano? Maybe. Sure he could have stuck around at 147 and continued to fight guys lower ranked than he already did... but my argument is what would that achieve. Hopkins is getting condemmed (is it on this thread) for not moving up and fighting Toney. Cotto and Margarito need alot more work before that can be called a solid world champion - Cotto looks to have the skills, but I have my doubts on Margarito. They haven't proved themselves any better than the likes of William Joppy and Keith Holmes - fighters who some people have criticised Hopkins for taking on as opposed to moving up and fighting Toney etc. Yes, though Hatton at 140 was a crying shame as was his whole reign there - especially as it seems to be his best weight.

You seem to be talking as if Mayweather is a fully fledged LM Stu. He will be lucky to weigh as much as 150 in the ring against Oscar, so for him to go back down to 140, will be nothing like as hard as it was for Jones Jr to lose 25lbs of muscle, after the Ruiz fight.
As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

Why? Perhaps I am overating this generation of fighters, but whats Floyd done wrong to NEVER be considered - it sounds like that if he beats DLH, Hatton, Mosley and Cotto you will not consider him - why? Not skillful enough?

stujones wrote:I think we should wait untill the DLH fight before we judge if Floyd Mayweather simply isn't good enough to be considered the GOAT. At the MOMENT, I think Floyds level of opponent (as good as it was at Super Feather and Light) to put him in consideration. He's done very little wrong.

For me he is the most skillful fighter of his generation, and I DO include Roy Jones in that. Although, Mayweather needs to prove it - and for its the DLH fight that is the ultimate acid test.

Yes, PN - I think an arguement can be made that if Floyd jumps back down two devisions and fights Hatton that will be some achievement (ala what Jones did Ruiz then Tarver) - then that will be a massive factor on his legacy. Cotto at 147 isn't a massive achievement yet, Cotto is just a fledgling champion - whose done nowt, same with Margarito (although he has been a champion for 5 years). Mosley (as the guy who apparently had DLH's number) will be a definate enhancer of his legacy.

James, I don't even think the Barkley's fight was Duran's best performance at Middleweight - his honourable loss to Hagler was better. I can see where you are coming from, but your taking into account ALL other factors (age, prior form etc).... It was his best "achievment", just like the Rumble in the Jungle was Ali's - but for neither was it their best performance.

Again you criticise Floyd's weight hoping, but please can you clarify. He fought the #1 147 and the most guy who posed the most offensively. Had he not faced those he would have been criticised. His 140 tenour was dissapointing no doubt - He could have got something with Casa and Freitas at Super Feather - but again, he was active and never had a bum in that weight and did geniunally outgrow the devision, but you cannot fault his lightweight rain. I cannot think of a fighter Floyd avoided - Juan Lazcano? Maybe. Sure he could have stuck around at 147 and continued to fight guys lower ranked than he already did... but my argument is what would that achieve. Hopkins is getting condemmed (is it on this thread) for not moving up and fighting Toney. Cotto and Margarito need alot more work before that can be called a solid world champion - Cotto looks to have the skills, but I have my doubts on Margarito. They haven't proved themselves any better than the likes of William Joppy and Keith Holmes - fighters who some people have criticised Hopkins for taking on as opposed to moving up and fighting Toney etc. Yes, though Hatton at 140 was a crying shame as was his whole reign there - especially as it seems to be his best weight.

How can you say Cotto had done nothing? I think you're being rather harsh. His record whilst not filled with superstars, is full of solid fighters, and the manner of his victories, even in fights which he looked bad in, are generally dominant and emphatic. Compare if you will Cotto's and Mayweather's performances against Vitoriano Sosa, Mayweather eked out a 12 round win (at lightweight where Floyd was still around his ideal weight), and Cotto took the guy to pieces.

Cotto's reign is full of solid contenders, not the kind of dustmen Roy Jones was feasting on at LHW. N'dou, Torres, Corley, Malignaggi, Pinto, Branco, Bailey, these are not shit names. He also took on guys who were hungry and unbeaten like Paulie M, Kelson Pinto, Maussa (at the time) Torres, and Malignaggi, this is a good resume from a champ who is not avoiding genuine threats. It will be interesting to see how Cotto does against Judah, I suspect he's going to beat him up good and proper.

I'm quite surprised Stu, that someone with your undoubted knowledge of the history of the sport, is prepared to even consider declaring Floyd the GOAT, when there are the vast panoply of fighters whose achievements far eclipse Floyd's. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that Floyd has done more to deserve that moniker than Ray Robinson, Armstrong, Pep, to name but a few. Hell I think Pernell Whittaker has a better claim than Floyd does, after all, he was able to come close to beating Oscar at the age of what, 37, when Oscar was in his physical prime, and started at the same weight as Floyd. I just don't quite get where this perversely exessive admiration is coming from. Floyd's skills are of a level for GOAT status, but there simply is no way his career is ever going to eclipse the men mentioned above, and quite a few others too. Archie Moore was every bit as skilful as floyd, and campaigned in a much, much tougher era, where it was murder to get one belt, let alone move up the weights and get more.

Robinson and Armstrong absolutely terrified the welterweight divisions, and Armstrong wasn't even a bloody welterweight, 19 out of 20 opponnents were knocked out, by a man who seldom weighed more than 140 and often 135 or less going into the bouts, now THAT my friend is moving up the weights.

Robinson in today's era, would have had belts from light welter early in his career, to super middleweight, of that I have no doubt, and I am sure he would have been good enough to pick up a light heavy belt too.

I can understand why anyone would be impressed with Floyd's impressive skills, handspeed and balance, but his career, it's nothing that special.

As for the Duran v Barklay fight, I guess what I really mean, is that it's my favourite Duran performance.

Andy Mac wrote: As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

SRR and Chavez in the same breath??? OH DEAR. Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez but isn't in the league of SRR or Langford. Hes also going to be below Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Armstrong, Grebb, Pepp. Then you've got Moore, Charles, Benny Leonard, Gans, Arguello, Sadler, Salvador Sanchez, Jofre, Hearns, Monzon, hagler, Jones Jr, DLH who could all be ranked above him. Then you have to question if your going to include heavies like Ali, Marciano, Louis, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Tyson, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Holmes.

If we matched up Mayweather with Chavez how would it go? Chavez had problems with slicksters like Whitaker/DLH/Taylor but Mayweather also had problems with pressure fighters like Castillo/Chavez. I think Mayweather would take a decision

Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
How can you say Cotto had done nothing? I think you're being rather harsh. His record whilst not filled with superstars, is full of solid fighters, and the manner of his victories, even in fights which he looked bad in, are generally dominant and emphatic. Compare if you will Cotto's and Mayweather's performances against Vitoriano Sosa, Mayweather eked out a 12 round win (at lightweight where Floyd was still around his ideal weight), and Cotto took the guy to pieces.

Cotto's reign is full of solid contenders, not the kind of dustmen Roy Jones was feasting on at LHW. N'dou, Torres, Corley, Malignaggi, Pinto, Branco, Bailey, these are not shit names. He also took on guys who were hungry and unbeaten like Paulie M, Kelson Pinto, Maussa (at the time) Torres, and Malignaggi, this is a good resume from a champ who is not avoiding genuine threats. It will be interesting to see how Cotto does against Judah, I suspect he's going to beat him up good and proper.

I'm quite surprised Stu, that someone with your undoubted knowledge of the history of the sport, is prepared to even consider declaring Floyd the GOAT, when there are the vast panoply of fighters whose achievements far eclipse Floyd's. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that Floyd has done more to deserve that moniker than Ray Robinson, Armstrong, Pep, to name but a few. Hell I think Pernell Whittaker has a better claim than Floyd does, after all, he was able to come close to beating Oscar at the age of what, 37, when Oscar was in his physical prime, and started at the same weight as Floyd. I just don't quite get where this perversely exessive admiration is coming from. Floyd's skills are of a level for GOAT status, but there simply is no way his career is ever going to eclipse the men mentioned above, and quite a few others too. Archie Moore was every bit as skilful as floyd, and campaigned in a much, much tougher era, where it was murder to get one belt, let alone move up the weights and get more.

Robinson and Armstrong absolutely terrified the welterweight divisions, and Armstrong wasn't even a bloody welterweight, 19 out of 20 opponnents were knocked out, by a man who seldom weighed more than 140 and often 135 or less going into the bouts, now THAT my friend is moving up the weights.

Robinson in today's era, would have had belts from light welter early in his career, to super middleweight, of that I have no doubt, and I am sure he would have been good enough to pick up a light heavy belt too.

I can understand why anyone would be impressed with Floyd's impressive skills, handspeed and balance, but his career, it's nothing that special.

As for the Duran v Barklay fight, I guess what I really mean, is that it's my favourite Duran performance.

Cotto fought some decent fighters as a prospect coming through - I think we were all impressed with how he handled Sosa, Ndou etc when coming through. However, he hasn't really upped that level. He's fought a lot of B level fighters and but none (yet) A level fighters. Margarito is the first.

Malignaggi is good but with flaws, Torres was a tad fortunate to win the WBO title and can be outboxed. Both these fighters gave Cotto fits and he hasn't really shown that he belongs in the A class yet. Beats Margarito and I will stop saying he's done nowt.

In this very thread, Floyd has been criticised for some of his "waste of time" title defences like against Phillip Ndou. Phillip Ndou would be argueably be up there as Cotto best opponent had they met.

You yourself said in your preview for Corley vs Witter that the ex WBO champion was way overated - yet now its coming to hyping up Cotto he's good again. Branco got his arse handed by a one armed Arturo Gatti (whose "shit" don't forget!) yet Branco is good, Kelson Pinto looked dangerous fighting bums, been exposed as a guy who hasn't got the basics.

I'm not saying this just as a back up for why Floyd hasn't fought him - just I think before you can call someone a solid world champion he must have beaten at least one A level fight. Even of Arturo Gatti's standing when Sharmba Mitchell was IBF champion he was lower A level, Cotto has fought many B - lower B/C level fighters. Really no better than the likes of Juan Urango.

Currently I have Floyd probably between 20-40 (I haven't done a list in a while) P4P of all time - I would say just the other side of thirty. Somewhere in a similar position maybe one or two ahead is DLH. However, the reason why (and I keep saying) I would put Floyd at #1 is if he does a NUMBER on Oscar, a clinic quite similar to the way he outclassed Mitchell/Gatti. My premise for this was that I don't think my current GOAT (Leonard) and my current #2 wouldn't have been good enough to have done that. If Floyd just gets a win - he probably moves to the top #15 - but not top #10. The gap between one and 50 isn't that great and for me the manner of victory becomes a huge factor. As I said the only time two top 50 fighters as close to their prime resulted in a massacre was Hearns over Duran.... Although I don't have Hearns ahead of Duran because it was Hearns with all the physical advantages - Now if Duran had done a number on Hearns - then he would be my undoubted GOAT at this juncture.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

Agree, if/when Cotto fights/beats Judah - then already I will no longer be calling him a champion whoose done nowt. Adds Margarito to the resume, then I will be saying time DLH/Mayweather faced him.

He aint done it yet.

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

Agree, if/when Cotto fights/beats Judah - then already I will no longer be calling him a champion whoose done nowt. Adds Margarito to the resume, then I will be saying time DLH/Mayweather faced him.

He aint done it yet.

I personally have Judah-Cotto as a 50-50 I think Judah may come good again for this 1 and has the style and power to give Cotto fits if he can pull it off

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

Agree, if/when Cotto fights/beats Judah - then already I will no longer be calling him a champion whoose done nowt. Adds Margarito to the resume, then I will be saying time DLH/Mayweather faced him.

He aint done it yet.

I personally have Judah-Cotto as a 50-50 I think Judah may come good again for this 1 and has the style and power to give Cotto fits if he can pull it off

I'd probably say 60:40 in Cotto's favour, would have liked to have seen Judah have a warm up. However, I think this is a more dangerous fight than Margarito - who I see as very overated, big strong, hits hard but limited. If Cotto loses to Judah I would still heavily favour him over Margarito.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

not keen on Jones at 175 myself. McCallum was 39 but rumoured to be 5 yrs older, Reggie Johnson's the best win, Jones was upset v Griffin 1 because the guy won some rds & so hit him while down (though was emphatic 2nd time), Tarver 1 was a bit lucky, Woods wasn't really world class back then.

With Jones' talent, his opposition is pretty inexcusable (okay, it was HBO's fault for paying him $5m per fight to take on alphabet ranked fighters) and his miserable end vs Tarver and Johnson is just...miserable.

Everyone who saw Jones at the time is impressed but the next gen may laugh as his opposition.

viciousmaussa wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

not keen on Jones at 175 myself. McCallum was 39 but rumoured to be 5 yrs older, Reggie Johnson's the best win, Jones was upset v Griffin 1 because the guy won some rds & so hit him while down (though was emphatic 2nd time), Tarver 1 was a bit lucky, Woods wasn't really world class back then.

With Jones' talent, his opposition is pretty inexcusable (okay, it was HBO's fault for paying him $5m per fight to take on alphabet ranked fighters) and his miserable end vs Tarver and Johnson is just...miserable.

Everyone who saw Jones at the time is impressed but the next gen may laugh as his opposition.

Well the names that are missing are:

Darius Michauski (cant be bothered to look up spelling) - neither willing to fight abroad basically.

Benn - Benn was doen after McClellan, not sure why the fight didnt happen then though

Collins - Collins wanted a fair bit, not sure on the details, think this would have been easy for Roy

Eubank - Eubank never really fancied it did he?

McCellan - would have happened if GMAN

Nunn - not sure on this 1 but Nunns career did spiral downwards.

Toney2 - screwed up by Toney losing

Hopkins2 - Hopkins laughably wanted 50%

Calazage - Joes scared of flying - think this would have been a hot match up a few years back though.

He beat the top dogs other than DM at 175 - Virgil Hill, Griffin, Tarver, Woods, Harding, Johnson, McCallum were top level fighters even if they werent all in there prime.

Has Woods really improved or is it just that Woods facing an amazing version of Roy Jones was too much for him? Woods himself said the angles and speed of Roy Jones was just something else.

As for the first Griffin fight surely that was more an accident that stole a win from RJJ? It wasn't a deadly blow on the ground or anything.

THE HUGE PROBLEM IN WORLD BOXING IS WORLD CLASS FIGHTERS WON'T FIGHT TOP FIGHTERS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES - MAYWEATHER-HATTON, RJJ-DM, RJJ-BENN/EUBANK - sures theres many other examples I cant think of right now - boxing business just doesn't work internationally very easily

viciousmaussa wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Cotto would be a super fight if he beats Ukral, Judah, Margarito/Williams back to back hes top10 P4P and Cotto versus either Mosley/Mayweather/DLH would be a superfight.

Don't compare Cottos comp to Roy Jones LHW comp - Jones beat 10 past or future world champions at Light Heavyweight ALONE!!! How many champs has Cotto beat? Superfights never happened at 175 for Jones but his comp is good

not keen on Jones at 175 myself. McCallum was 39 but rumoured to be 5 yrs older, Reggie Johnson's the best win, Jones was upset v Griffin 1 because the guy won some rds & so hit him while down (though was emphatic 2nd time), Tarver 1 was a bit lucky, Woods wasn't really world class back then.

With Jones' talent, his opposition is pretty inexcusable (okay, it was HBO's fault for paying him $5m per fight to take on alphabet ranked fighters) and his miserable end vs Tarver and Johnson is just...miserable.

Everyone who saw Jones at the time is impressed but the next gen may laugh as his opposition.

I do disagree that Woods wasn't world class back then? I think the viewpoint that Woods is such an improved fighter now was shattered when he struggled against an even older Johnson and had similar fits as he did in his previous meetings with Glencoffe. This is when Glencoffe was starting to show his age (the Tarver rematch).

Woods was younger in 2002 and had some decent wins in the late 90's early 2000's. I still think his Crawford Ashley win was argueably his best ever performance - that or the Rico Hoye one.

stujones wrote:

Andy Mac wrote:

stujones wrote:I think we should wait untill the DLH fight before we judge if Floyd Mayweather simply isn't good enough to be considered the GOAT. At the MOMENT, I think Floyds level of opponent (as good as it was at Super Feather and Light) to put him in consideration. He's done very little wrong.

For me he is the most skillful fighter of his generation, and I DO include Roy Jones in that. Although, Mayweather needs to prove it - and for its the DLH fight that is the ultimate acid test.

Yes, PN - I think an arguement can be made that if Floyd jumps back down two devisions and fights Hatton that will be some achievement (ala what Jones did Ruiz then Tarver) - then that will be a massive factor on his legacy. Cotto at 147 isn't a massive achievement yet, Cotto is just a fledgling champion - whose done nowt, same with Margarito (although he has been a champion for 5 years). Mosley (as the guy who apparently had DLH's number) will be a definate enhancer of his legacy.

James, I don't even think the Barkley's fight was Duran's best performance at Middleweight - his honourable loss to Hagler was better. I can see where you are coming from, but your taking into account ALL other factors (age, prior form etc).... It was his best "achievment", just like the Rumble in the Jungle was Ali's - but for neither was it their best performance.

Again you criticise Floyd's weight hoping, but please can you clarify. He fought the #1 147 and the most guy who posed the most offensively. Had he not faced those he would have been criticised. His 140 tenour was dissapointing no doubt - He could have got something with Casa and Freitas at Super Feather - but again, he was active and never had a bum in that weight and did geniunally outgrow the devision, but you cannot fault his lightweight rain. I cannot think of a fighter Floyd avoided - Juan Lazcano? Maybe. Sure he could have stuck around at 147 and continued to fight guys lower ranked than he already did... but my argument is what would that achieve. Hopkins is getting condemmed (is it on this thread) for not moving up and fighting Toney. Cotto and Margarito need alot more work before that can be called a solid world champion - Cotto looks to have the skills, but I have my doubts on Margarito. They haven't proved themselves any better than the likes of William Joppy and Keith Holmes - fighters who some people have criticised Hopkins for taking on as opposed to moving up and fighting Toney etc. Yes, though Hatton at 140 was a crying shame as was his whole reign there - especially as it seems to be his best weight.

You seem to be talking as if Mayweather is a fully fledged LM Stu. He will be lucky to weigh as much as 150 in the ring against Oscar, so for him to go back down to 140, will be nothing like as hard as it was for Jones Jr to lose 25lbs of muscle, after the Ruiz fight.
As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

Why? Perhaps I am overating this generation of fighters, but whats Floyd done wrong to NEVER be considered - it sounds like that if he beats DLH, Hatton, Mosley and Cotto you will not consider him - why? Not skillful enough?

I would have thought that was pretty self explanatory. Unless of course you really consider Hatton, Cotto, Mosley, and a 34 yr old semi active ODH, et al to be of a higher calibre than say, Haglers, SRR's, SRL's, Durans, Chavez's and a good few more besides, opponents. I'm not denying that he is the most skillful boxer in the world today. But he is not by any means a fighter, and not really a candidate for the GOAT.

If he stays until his reflexes slow, as they have to, and guts out, or fights his way to some victories, then he will rise in modern day standing, but the GOAT. That is a little too ambitious.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

SRR and Chavez in the same breath??? OH DEAR. Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez but isn't in the league of SRR or Langford. Hes also going to be below Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Armstrong, Grebb, Pepp. Then you've got Moore, Charles, Benny Leonard, Gans, Arguello, Sadler, Salvador Sanchez, Jofre, Hearns, Monzon, hagler, Jones Jr, DLH who could all be ranked above him. Then you have to question if your going to include heavies like Ali, Marciano, Louis, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Tyson, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Holmes.

If we matched up Mayweather with Chavez how would it go? Chavez had problems with slicksters like Whitaker/DLH/Taylor but Mayweather also had problems with pressure fighters like Castillo/Chavez. I think Mayweather would take a decision

Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez.

Erm, I think not.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

SRR and Chavez in the same breath??? OH DEAR. Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez but isn't in the league of SRR or Langford. Hes also going to be below Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Armstrong, Grebb, Pepp. Then you've got Moore, Charles, Benny Leonard, Gans, Arguello, Sadler, Salvador Sanchez, Jofre, Hearns, Monzon, hagler, Jones Jr, DLH who could all be ranked above him. Then you have to question if your going to include heavies like Ali, Marciano, Louis, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Tyson, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Holmes.

If we matched up Mayweather with Chavez how would it go? Chavez had problems with slicksters like Whitaker/DLH/Taylor but Mayweather also had problems with pressure fighters like Castillo/Chavez. I think Mayweather would take a decision

Lets not forget, Mayweather had hand troubles for the Castillo fight (I'm sure it went in the Chavez fight). I personally didn't think he displayed much problems. I think the Super Feather limit was a worry in the Chavez fight - but he was always in control and in the end battered Chavez untill his corner pulled him out. I failed to see the controvesy in the first Castillo fight - I thought it was clear and with one hand. I failed to understand how the first fight was considered controvesial and the rematch wasn't - I thought they followed a similar pattern.

Andy Mac wrote:

stujones wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: You seem to be talking as if Mayweather is a fully fledged LM Stu. He will be lucky to weigh as much as 150 in the ring against Oscar, so for him to go back down to 140, will be nothing like as hard as it was for Jones Jr to lose 25lbs of muscle, after the Ruiz fight.
As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

Why? Perhaps I am overating this generation of fighters, but whats Floyd done wrong to NEVER be considered - it sounds like that if he beats DLH, Hatton, Mosley and Cotto you will not consider him - why? Not skillful enough?

I would have thought that was pretty self explanatory. Unless of course you really consider Hatton, Cotto, Mosley, and a 34 yr old semi active ODH, et al to be of a higher calibre than say, Haglers, SRR's, SRL's, Durans, Chavez's and a good few more besides, opponents. I'm not denying that he is the most skillful boxer in the world today. But he is not by any means a fighter, and not really a candidate for the GOAT.

If he stays until his reflexes slow, as they have to, and guts out, or fights his way to some victories, then he will rise in modern day standing, but the GOAT. That is a little too ambitious.

No Hatton, Cotto, Mosley and DLH are not on the levels of the fighters you mention - but they ARE on the level of a good many of the fighters that these guys beat - to assure greatness. DLH and Mosley are above Jake La Motta IMO, DLH and Mosley are close (on the same level anyway) to Tommy Hearns (Hagler's best win) and as I said it the manner of a DLH win would be critical.

I think Duran should be right up there - as a lightweight he was an indestructable force. But how can anyone laugh off the suggest that if Floyd remains undefeated beats these fighters he still won't be ranked ahead of a fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing, took a pasting by Hearns, lost pretty widely vs Benitez and quit vs Leonard.

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

SRR and Chavez in the same breath??? OH DEAR. Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez but isn't in the league of SRR or Langford. Hes also going to be below Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Armstrong, Grebb, Pepp. Then you've got Moore, Charles, Benny Leonard, Gans, Arguello, Sadler, Salvador Sanchez, Jofre, Hearns, Monzon, hagler, Jones Jr, DLH who could all be ranked above him. Then you have to question if your going to include heavies like Ali, Marciano, Louis, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Tyson, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Holmes.

If we matched up Mayweather with Chavez how would it go? Chavez had problems with slicksters like Whitaker/DLH/Taylor but Mayweather also had problems with pressure fighters like Castillo/Chavez. I think Mayweather would take a decision

Lets not forget, Mayweather had hand troubles for the Castillo fight (I'm sure it went in the Chavez fight). I personally didn't think he displayed much problems. I think the Super Feather limit was a worry in the Chavez fight - but he was always in control and in the end battered Chavez untill his corner pulled him out. I failed to see the controvesy in the first Castillo fight - I thought it was clear and with one hand. I failed to understand how the first fight was considered controvesial and the rematch wasn't - I thought they followed a similar pattern.

Actually I watched the both Castillo fights back to back and thought the second 1 must have been the controversal fight . First time of watching I had Mayweather-Castillo 1 8-4 PBF and the second 7-5 PBF

Andy Mac wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.

SRR and Chavez in the same breath??? OH DEAR. Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez but isn't in the league of SRR or Langford. Hes also going to be below Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Armstrong, Grebb, Pepp. Then you've got Moore, Charles, Benny Leonard, Gans, Arguello, Sadler, Salvador Sanchez, Jofre, Hearns, Monzon, hagler, Jones Jr, DLH who could all be ranked above him. Then you have to question if your going to include heavies like Ali, Marciano, Louis, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Tyson, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Holmes.

If we matched up Mayweather with Chavez how would it go? Chavez had problems with slicksters like Whitaker/DLH/Taylor but Mayweather also had problems with pressure fighters like Castillo/Chavez. I think Mayweather would take a decision

Mayweather is already on the level of Chavez.

Erm, I think not.

Which win makes Chavez better? Many rate Mayweather on Whitakers level (I don't myself) and Whitaker proved to be clearly superior to Chavez.

Whitaker was all wrong for Chavez. Pernell was also bigger & JC wasn't really effective as a welter. The lefty was great at negating smaller legends - Azumah Nelson as well - and Pernell was less commanding as he moved up the weights himself.

JCC peaked in 87, when he destroyed Rosario.

In terms of body of work, Chavez' record is awesome. Lots of alphabelt soup wins and loads of stay busy fights (I just hate elite fighters to be inactive). And of course great wins over Rosario, Camacho, Roger Mayweather (x2), LaPorte, Meldrick Taylor (x2), Lockridge etc etc.

He was also an awesome offensive machine. Some terrific defense (blocking, head movement), withering hooks, brilliant at cutting the ring off.

viciousmaussa wrote:Whitaker was all wrong for Chavez. Pernell was also bigger & JC wasn't really effective as a welter. The lefty was great at negating smaller legends - Azumah Nelson as well - and Pernell was less commanding as he moved up the weights himself.

JCC peaked in 87, when he destroyed Rosario.

In terms of body of work, Chavez' record is awesome. Lots of alphabelt soup wins and loads of stay busy fights (I just hate elite fighters to be inactive). And of course great wins over Rosario, Camacho, Roger Mayweather (x2), LaPorte, Meldrick Taylor (x2), Lockridge etc etc.

He was also an awesome offensive machine. Some terrific defense (blocking, head movement), withering hooks, brilliant at cutting the ring off.

the same way whitaker was all wrong for chavez is wht floyd would be all wrong for molasses-slow JCC!! PBF would outspeed and outbox chavez the same way meldrick taylor did, with enuf sense to avoid going into trenches with JCC!! easy points win for floyd---chavez ALWAYS trouble fast slicksters not as fast or as slick as PBF!!! :(

And look at Floyd's trouble against a well schooled pressure fighter - Castillo. Castillo being very tall & upright couldn't cut the ring down as fast as Chavez, nor could he come underneath punches. Floyd had no confidence in either of the Castillo fights & he'd have even less vs Chavez.

Chavez was very slow from around 1990 onward. But he was still an awesome offensive machine.

Floyd apparently can beat any fighter in the last 25 years. LOL

Pernell was a different kind of fighter to Floyd too, he was much more evasive and used the ring a hell of a lot more. Floyd relies on a much more traditional defence, blocking and parrying and sometimes slipping and sliding, but certainly not breakdancing around the ring like Whittaker. Whittaker was also the bigger man against Chavez, and Chavez was beginning to slow at that point in his career.

I would have gone for Chavez to give Taylor a torrid time indeed, he was a far better all around offensive machine than Castillo, and slicker too. In his prime Chavez was very good at slipping, parrying and riding out shots, and was far more consistent with his work, breaking his opponents down with seamless aggression.

For me, Chavez' accomplishments far outweigh what Floyd has achieved to date.

I'd actually say that Castillo could be a better outside fighter than Chavez, because he's tall and can easily land lead power shots. JLC seems to have mastered every punch & to his credit delivered in fights with Mayweather (1st), Johnston (1st & 2nd), Casamayor, Corrales (1st - before the gumshield incident!), and these are the elite fighters of the 90s-00s at 130-135.


Both Mexicans had a similar cumulative effect in their shots. But Chavez definitely has the better come forward footwork, faster cutting the ring off, did more in his career, etc.


Definitely, Floyd is very orthodox.

viciousmaussa wrote:I'd actually say that Castillo could be a better outside fighter than Chavez, because he's tall and can easily land lead power shots. JLC seems to have mastered every punch & to his credit delivered in fights with Mayweather (1st), Johnston (1st & 2nd), Casamayor, Corrales (1st - before the gumshield incident!), and these are the elite fighters of the 90s-00s at 130-135.


Both Mexicans had a similar cumulative effect in their shots. But Chavez definitely has the better come forward footwork, faster cutting the ring off, did more in his career, etc.


Definitely, Floyd is very orthodox.

the PBF that was fighting the world's best lightweight (JLC) without a tuneup (like he did castillo) would have more trouble at 135 with chavez than the PBF who won CLEARLY in castillo rematch!!

by the time chavez got to 140, the JCC who lost to whitaker and twice to oscar would have been easily outquicked by floyd!!

as slick a boxer as meldrick taylor was when he THREW away his huge points lead by slugging with julio, PBF is quicker than taylor was and SMART enuf to avoid the FOOLISH time in the trenches that meldrick should have avoided if he had floyd's RING SMARTS!!

chavez that was lucky enuf to get the foolish taylor into a slugfest, would not have succeeded doing that with PBF!!

Taylor also hit a lot harder than Floyd, and he didn't just decide to trade with Chavez, chavez took his legs away by forcing him to move the whole fight, and battering him to the body with savage hooks, Chavez was always good at cutting the ring down, and fighting on the move like Taylor did for the whole fight is very tiring.

shoutout2u wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:I'd actually say that Castillo could be a better outside fighter than Chavez, because he's tall and can easily land lead power shots. JLC seems to have mastered every punch & to his credit delivered in fights with Mayweather (1st), Johnston (1st & 2nd), Casamayor, Corrales (1st - before the gumshield incident!), and these are the elite fighters of the 90s-00s at 130-135.


Both Mexicans had a similar cumulative effect in their shots. But Chavez definitely has the better come forward footwork, faster cutting the ring off, did more in his career, etc.


Definitely, Floyd is very orthodox.

the PBF that was fighting the world's best lightweight (JLC) without a tuneup (like he did castillo) would have more trouble at 135 with chavez than the PBF who won CLEARLY in castillo rematch!!

by the time chavez got to 140, the JCC who lost to whitaker and twice to oscar would have been easily outquicked by floyd!!

as slick a boxer as meldrick taylor was when he THREW away his huge points lead by slugging with julio, PBF is quicker than taylor was and SMART enuf to avoid the FOOLISH time in the trenches that meldrick should have avoided if he had floyd's RING SMARTS!!

chavez that was lucky enuf to get the foolish taylor into a slugfest, would not have succeeded doing that with PBF!!

Floyd had no confidence in the Castillo rematch and basically turned it into a non fight until he actually dared throw clean punches in the last 3 rds to seal the win.

I had Floyd behind after 6 rds of the Castillo rematch. What makes Floyd's little pecks better than the shots Castillo landed?


Like I say, no one in the last 25 years can apparently beat Floyd...hahaha Sadly there is the perception that he can beat anyone. Never mind that a case of taking on the wrong foe - like a peak Mosley, Johnston or Casamayor & particularly Tszyu - could have ended his deception long ago. It almost happened in Castillo 1 anyway.