BoxRec

Sir Psycho wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

granberry wrote: Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

Again, your rationalization is nonsense. Old timers still bitch about that fight to this day. It had nothing to do with expectations. It had to do with watching one guy chasing another guy down, outlanding him and then being told he lost. I think the Ali shills cling to this gift and try to make it not be a gift is because the Ali Religion falls apart if you say he lost before the "Man" took his titles and oppotunities. To the Ali fanatic that is like finding out Jesus was really a cocaine dealer. It hurts, but it is true. I encourage everyone who can, meaning has the capability, to score a fight and tune out the cheerleading announcers you will see a tough, but essentially unmarketable pugilist give it his all, beat the favorite and then gets robbed. It's like watching Rocky Balboa win a decision and the judges told him he lost.

DaveV17 wrote:IMO Ali lost all three fights against Ken Norton, there are many who think Frazier won their second fight (I haven't seen it in a long time), there are some who even think Ali lost to Evangelista (on the CBZ there are more than a few) in addition there are the Jones, Young, and Shavers fights that were extremely close. In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians." Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career. In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability. Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Sir Psycho wrote:

evndrbsn wrote: That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

Again, your rationalization is nonsense. Old timers still bitch about that fight to this day. It had nothing to do with expectations. It had to do with watching one guy chasing another guy down, outlanding him and then being told he lost. I think the Ali shills cling to this gift and try to make it not be a gift is because the Ali Religion falls apart if you say he lost before the "Man" took his titles and oppotunities. To the Ali fanatic that is like finding out Jesus was really a cocaine dealer. It hurts, but it is true. I encourage everyone who can, meaning has the capability, to score a fight and tune out the cheerleading announcers you will see a tough, but essentially unmarketable pugilist give it his all, beat the favorite and then gets robbed. It's like watching Rocky Balboa win a decision and the judges told him he lost.

Well I saw the thing and I thought Clay got humbled but I thought he won the fight....I was not on the bandwagon then so I'm one of the ones that thought A loudmouth fighter just was not as good as he thought he was.....I did however think he pulled the fight out....but most of us thought it was close. Had the decision gone the other way I don't think people would have been distraught. Like I said it was close.....Now that it's been brought up I should watch again I suppose. But close fights can almost always go either way.......Robbery does not come close to describing that decision.....I think MOST thought it was probably fair.

BoxBuzz wrote:

DaveV17 wrote:IMO Ali lost all three fights against Ken Norton, there are many who think Frazier won their second fight (I haven't seen it in a long time), there are some who even think Ali lost to Evangelista (on the CBZ there are more than a few) in addition there are the Jones, Young, and Shavers fights that were extremely close. In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians." Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career. In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability. Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

The NY Times had Frazier winning the second fight, if memory serves. Frazier listed a few sources in his autobiography. Frankly, when I read the book I hadn't seen the second fight since I was a kid. I watched it again and I thought it was a draw. I remember laughing at first and thinking Frazier was just making excuses, but I read some sources and then watched it and I don't think he won, but a draw was reasonable and I might add was an Ali victory, but it wasn't the avenging victory it was made to be.

Frazier winning the second fight? Ok well if he lost that fight he probably lost more than half of his fights in your eyes. I've never heard from a credible source that this fight was controversial at all. Unless your purely score a fight on being agressive and nothing else. In that case Joe beat Jumbo Cummings too he was certainly the aggresor. It was called a draw since his aggression was sort of compromised in it's effectiveness.. As it was in the second Ali fight.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here. However it would seem to me since you admit that many of these points are controversial and have much to do with opinion I'll leave those alone. As for the physical facts you seem to have most of them right that I can see.

So with that in mind you have certainly made an excellent case for Ali's greatness based on the limited amount of deficits that are available to critique in his long and illustrius career. Even the best have bad moments and your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters. Some of his defeats actually add credibility to his greatness. For example his ability to come back and defeat Joe twice (learning from one's mistakes) and take on and beat Joe's master George Foreman. The Spinks thing is interesting.....and does speak to his overconfidence which certainly was one of his shortcomings at times. he probably would have won if he simply would have taken his opponent more seriously. And of course by this time he was no longer performing at his best.

Honestly? I am absolutely convinced even you don't beleive your own words.....but nevertheless yours is certainly an opinion of note within the context of this forum. And one that will most likely always draw comment not for it's brilliance, attention to detail or relevance, but for it's comic relief and it's curiousity factor.

Would anyone care to disagree with me on this? I'm always open minded. I don't hold it against Ali that he just happened to be one of the most gifted athletes to lace up the gloves...yet that seems to be granberry's take.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here.

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:
Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here. However it would seem to me since you admit that many of these points are controversial and have much to do with opinion I'll leave those alone. As for the physical facts you seem to have most of them right that I can see.

So with that in mind you have certainly made an excellent case for Ali's greatness based on the limited amount of deficits that are available to critique in his long and illustrius career. Even the best have bad moments and your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters. Some of his defeats actually add credibility to his greatness. For example his ability to come back and defeat Joe twice (learning from one's mistakes) and take on and beat Joe's master George Foreman. The Spinks thing is interesting.....and does speak to his overconfidence which certainly was one of his shortcomings at times. he probably would have won if he simply would have taken his opponent more seriously. And of course by this time he was no longer performing at his best.

Honestly? I am absolutely convinced even you don't beleive your own words.....but nevertheless yours is certainly an opinion of note within the context of this forum. And one that will most likely always draw comment not for it's brilliance, attention to detail or relevance, but for it's comic relief and it's curiousity factor.

Would anyone care to disagree with me on this? I'm always open minded. I don't hold it against Ali that he just happened to be one of the most gifted athletes to lace up the gloves...yet that seems to be granberry's take.

Your convoluted "thinking" on display here speaks for itself, Buzz.

"your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters.'

The list is ENDLESS with our oversold Ali.

What I posted is a drop in the bucket.

What is on display here in post after post are excuses and justification after justification for Ali's failings as a fighter.

Do you make the same 'justifications' when other fighters lose, are knocked down, get the benifit of bad decisions, are involved in obviously fake fights?

Of course not.

Keep the excuses for your hero's very obvious flaws coming, Buzz.

DaveV17 wrote:
In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians."

Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career.

In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability.

Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

BoxBuzz wrote:granberry, I would consider you perhaps the greatest flyweight thinker of all time.

BoxBuzz wrote:
I'm tired of being duped by the media.

BoxBuzz wrote:
But for fun let's discuss the following..Now How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps, perhaps list them in order. Hey we may not agree but we may have in interesting discussion at least.

Archie Moore?.......
Ezzard Charles?....
Primo Carnera?....
Tommy Hurricane Jackson...
Michael Dokes........

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
But for fun let's discuss the following..Now How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps, perhaps list them in order. Hey we may not agree but we may have in interesting discussion at least.

Archie Moore?.......
Ezzard Charles?....
Primo Carnera?....
Tommy Hurricane Jackson...
Michael Dokes........

I have a more relevant question for you, Buzz.

It has to with the REAL world.

Not the fairy tale world that most boxing site posters dwell in.

How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps,

DOUG JONES

JIMMY YOUNG

KEN NORTON

JOE FRAZIER

LEON SPINKS

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
Charles couldn't get a crack at Moore so he went to HW.

BoxBuzz wrote:for as many "facts" as you have at your disposal I'm often surprised at your "assessments". But that's what makes a baseball such a great sport.