BoxRec

When I said that Young beat my fighter when he was past his best, I was referring to Foreman, not Ali.

No one's ever called me an Ali fan before, much less an Ali shill. Here's how it's spelled, Gran...

O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-I-T-Y. Can you say it?

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BoxBuzz wrote:
And of course many of us Ali "shills" think that Ali's performance in the wake of that devastating left hook is almost equal in it's remarkable nature as the KD itself. That shot would have put almost any other heavyweight in history both DOWN and OUT.
IMHO.

All time Religion of Ali classic.

As has been pointed out,

if Ali pulled his pants down and took a sh*t in the middle of the ring,

members of The Religion of Ali would say

that proves that he is the 'greatest of all time.'

.

DaveV17 wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:
And of course many of us Ali "shills" think that Ali's performance in the wake of that devastating left hook is almost equal in it's remarkable nature as the KD itself. That shot would have put almost any other heavyweight in history both DOWN and OUT.
IMHO.

I am trying to remember a fight in which Joe Frazier knocked out an opponent with one left hook. I'm sure it happened but I can't think of any. I remember Ron Stander getting hit time after time with left hooks and I haven't checked, but I don't think he even went down. Joe was a great fighter but from memory he wore people down, I don't remember him knocking them out with one shot.

Not an unreasonable response...You could certainly argue that point. Maybe it would be better if I simply asked you how you thought the fight proceeded after the knockdown and did YOU happen to see anything that seemed the least bit out of the ordinary. I thought there was a bit of a rally worthy of notice but others like granberry did not see it that way at all. Like you say Joe is a guy who usually wore down his opponents so that if they took a shot like that by round 15 it ought to do the trick.

I don't think I qualify for "shill" status. I make no apology for my liking of this fighter, but only because I feel he has earned respect. I happen to respect Joe Frazier as well, but not at the expense of any other fighter. If you feel that Ali's performance was simply par, post the KD I can accept that as a respectable opinion that I may disagree with.

I've never proposed that Ali won the fight in the "shill like" manner that granberry would say Frazier won the second fight or in his insistance that Joe was prevented from winning the third fight by a conspiratorial cornerman. That sort of assertion is "shill like" indeed .

Dave would you agree with my assessment? If not please elaborate.

Seamus wrote:Billy Conn wasen't a big puncher, but he certainly wasen't feather fisted either. In the earlier eras you just can't judge fighters by their KO percentage, because their are too many intangibles to consider. For one thing, Conn regularly fought solid opposition, so their's no way he'd have an impressive number of KO's.

The guy had 15 knockouts in 77 fights. I can understand KO percentages not meaning much, but I think that figure means something. He scored no KO's in any of his Light Heavyweight title fights. And Conn was a Light Heavyweight, so compared to natural Heavyweights I can't imagine him being a big puncher in the first place. And he wasn't a former Light Heavyweight, mind you, he was still fighting Louis under the Light Heavyweight limit, reducing his power even further. At least other Light Heavyweight champions generally bulked up when they fought Heavyweights.

As for Frazier... it is true he broke most of his opponents down, but its not like the knock down came in the fourth round, it was the 15th round of a brutal battle where both men were exhausted and Frazier landed a perfect shot. Ali was up in only a couple of seconds.

Conn was coming off 4 straight KO wins when he fought Louis the 1st time, and the year before that he knocked out the VERY underrated Bob Pastor. As either Gil Clancy or Ferdie Pacheco once said (can't remember which) Look at an opponent's low KO percentage, and say "This guy can't hurt me" and you'll be on the canvas before you know it.

That still doesn't make him a good puncher. And the four guys he knocked out weren't exactly great fighters. I agree with the point about assuming someone can't hurt you and then getting knocked out, you can name any number of instances of that, as recently as Mayweather-Hatton where Hatton spent a couple of years seeming to mock Mayweather's power and then got knocked silly.

The point was that all fighters at some point are going to get caught with something. Clay was a young fighter who got hit right by a good punching Heavyweight in Cooper. Louis had been champion for a few years and got wobbled by a pretty weak punching Light Heavyweight. It happens.

I don't deny that Conn could hurt you, but that doesn't make him a good puncher. If Whitaker caught you right he might hurt you, I would still say he was feather fisted.

granberry wrote:The currently active members of the Religion of Ali (buzz, Irene, ifeelfine) have their panties in a snit.

"Panties in a snit" - WTF?? Is it even physically possible to have an article of clothing 'in a state of agitated irritation'?

Or did you perhaps mean "have their conniptions in a bunch", granberry? Clarification, please.

[Or as you like to say - "we are waiting."]

I Feel Fine wrote:That still doesn't make him a good puncher. And the four guys he knocked out weren't exactly great fighters.

What a pathetic repository of drivel the internet is.

ifeelfine doesn't know that there are weight classes in boxing.

ifeelfine doesn't know that Billy Conn stopped heavyweight Bob Pastor.

ifeelfine doesn't know who Bob Pastor is.

ifeelfine doesn't know that Bob Pastor stayed 10 rounds with Joe Louis.

but that Conn stopped Bob Pastor.

"Pastor was counted out after taking a left hook to the body. He was also knocked down for a 7-count at the bell in the 9th and for a 9-count in round 12."

Conn also stopped heavyweight Gus Dorazio.

Being able to stop someone isn't always the result of power.

Conn was a weak puncher, and the fact that he was at the Light Heavyweight limit and fighting among Heavyweights only made him an even weaker puncher by comparison.

Buts its ok granberry, because we know that Conn hit harder than Foreman and Shavers, don't we?

I Feel Fine wrote:
Conn was a weak puncher, and the fact that he was at the Light Heavyweight limit and fighting among Heavyweights only made him an even weaker puncher by comparison.

More mindless gibberish from ifeelfine.

Conn stopped heavyweights Bob Pastor and Gus Dorazio.

In the real world.

But internet gibberish posters like like ifeelfine don't live in the real world.

Yes granberry, Conn was a true Heavyweight puncher, not Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier and George Foreman and Earnie Shavers

You knock Ali for getting rocked by Jones and excuse Louis for getting hurt by Conn simply because Conn knocked out Dorazio. Well, Jones knocked out Zora Folley. Louis had an even larger size advantage over Conn than Ali did over Jones, and Louis was older than Ali was. Around the same time that Conn knocked out Dorazio, Dorazio was coming off knock out losses to 23-8 Willie Reddish and 15-7 Roscoe Toles in the same year. This was Conn's impressive knock out?

Tell us more about how Conn broke his hand fighting his brother and not his father-in-law, dingleberry, since you've been anointed as a true "boxing insider"...

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes granberry, Conn was a true Heavyweight puncher, not Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier and George Foreman and Earnie Shavers

The internet is a wasteland polluted by the ifeelfines and their junior high school debating society posts.

I agree granberry, which explains why you're on the internet.

granberry wrote:ONLY members of the Religion of Ali are ignorant of the fact that "judges" automatically declared Ali the "winner" of any fight that he was not knocked out in.

ONLY members of the Religion of Ali

don't know that one "judge" gave Jimmy Young THREE ROUNDS out of fifteen.

Ali could not lose a decision.

Sugar Ray Leonard could not lose a decision.

Leonard was knocked down TWICE by Hearns and got a "draw."

If Leonard had knocked Hearns down twice would Hearns have gotten a draw?

Swallow your horsesh*t, Religion of Ali members,

and whine in agony when anyone points out the raw horsesh*t that your hero's career is comprised of.

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


Macbeth: Act 5 Scene 5

y should we have to put up with this bloke

p4p1 wrote:y should we have to put up with this bloke

He's entertaining; in a twisted kind of way...

John Galt wrote:Ali certainly never had a close fight with Ken Norton and he won very few rounds. Norton dominated Ali in the ring, yet Ali got 2 decisions over the deserving Norton. There were others fights for Ali such as Young, Shavers, Spinks 2, Frazier 2, Evangelista, that Ali would have lost if he was not Ali.
Ali was allowed to hold and stall throughout his career. He was not penalized for those tactics as other fighters would have been. He was an attraction that bought people to boxing who normally would not have watched boxing so he was allowed to play the game by different rules. The favortism shown to Ali affects his legacy.

I watched every single fight you cited contemporaneously and I don't remember any of those decisions being controversial except the Young decision. I will concede that some of those bouts were closer than others and not all the victories were, errrr, aesthetically pleasing...But if you can't cite contemporaneous published accounts that they were it is fair to assume they weren't...

Here's a contemporaneous account of Ali-Frazier ll:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Here's a contemporaneous account of Ali-Shavers:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Here's a contemporaneous account of Ali-Spinks ll

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Here's the youtube of Ali-Evangelista:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T3j-L8- ... re=related

Here's a contemporaneous account of Clay (Ali) -Jones for good measure:


http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

Now, if you can cite otherpublished accounts I will be more than happy to read them...But what a friend might have or might not have said about this bout or that bout is of no moment...