No love for Sugar Ray Leonard..

[Robinson]

what Armstrong did, can you do these days ? or in Leonards time ?

[I Feel Fine]

Comparing what Armstrong did to what Leonard did is preposterous.

Armstrong put two titles on the line and succesfully defended them.

Leonard had the lightheavyweight champion come down almost 10 pounds in weight to supermiddleweight and in the same fight won a vacant supermiddleweight title.

I am a huge Ray Leonard fan but there is no comparison between these two things.

Henry's words were "Where else in history can you name where two titles were on the line at the same time." I gave a clear example. Nothing preposterous about that.

I would not object to the fact that two belts were on the line. I don't like the fact that two belts were on the line, but there was precedent for it. What I would object to is the fact that Leonard, who had never fought at 168 before, was in a position to fight for a vacant title. But that is typical sanctioning body BS, they do that all the time. You can't single out Leonard for that.

[Seamus]

I knew plenty of people who hated Leonard before his first fight with Duran. Never understood it. If anything they should have hated Duran for KO'ing Buchanan with a shot to the nads and talking about sending Lampkin to the graveyard.

Leonard was just one of those very rare fighters, who you could see as an 18 yr old amateur, and you knew you were watching a guy who was going to be an alltime great.

[Robinson]

I never understood, how the dirtiness and often arrogance of Duran was so
over looked.

The Buchanan fight is a good example of this.

Macho does not mean, dirty and cheater.

Plenty of tough latino fighters have come and hone before and after
Duran that had that macho attitude while being honorable.

I guess Leonard because he had wider (outside of boxing) appeal
shall forever be condemned.

[I Feel Fine]

Well, prior to the Duran fights, people thought that Leonard was a media creation. That's one of the reasons why he was apparently hated. Which is of course absurd. He destroyed that Cuban in the Olympics, which is a rare accomplishment for American amateurs, and then he beat a great champion in Benitez. But I scratch my head at a lot of the hate that boxing fans have for some boxers. I would find it hard to come up with a list of boxers who I don't like, let alone hate.

And as far as Duran, while I do like Duran, I find it odd that some would hate Leonard for whatever reason it is, while Duran before the fight was cursing at Leonard's wife and spitting at Leonard's sister. And I find it odd that some criticize Leonard for taunting Duran in the second fight, considering that Duran taunted Leonard in the first fight. When Duran does it its no big deal, when Leonard does it it's perceived that Leonard is somehow making a mockery of boxing.

[I Feel Fine]

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

That is sad for a great fighter of his caliber that could have been greater fighter if he would have fought those same guys again.

Also many people rate him way too high in the all-time pound per pound or all time welterweight greats in the rankings. He DID NOT HAD ENOUGH FIGHTS to be considered above like guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Tony Canzoneri for example for the p4p ratings and DID NOT STAY TOO LONG at welterweight to be viewed at least with the top 3 welter greats.

Did Duran give Buchanan a rematch? Moore? Barkley? Did Hearns give Cuevas a rematch? Benitez? Andries? Hill?

He should have given Hearns a rematch after the second fight, I would agree to that, but there's no particular shame in him not giving Hearns an immediate rematch after the first fight.

Leonard did not have many fights, but in those 30 something fights he fought some of the best fighters of all time. Just like Frazier.

It's absurd to say that Leonard isn't one of the greatest Welterweights of all time. There's no rule that says that you have to be in a division for a certain amount of time to be considered one of the greats.

[Robinson]

I have always found Duran to be a pig and child like outside of the ring.
I have never met him, so it is only what I have seen on film and read.

BUT...
a prominent Australian MMA fighter has trained with Duran and even dated
his daughter. One of the guys that travelled with him told some stories of
Duran that really makes you question him.

Noting I wish to type here, but he came across as a crude, fowl man.

Great fighter all the same.

[I Feel Fine]

Great fighter all the same.

Yeah, to me that's what it comes down to. I'm not going to pretend to be in a position to judge Duran. Next to Ali, Duran is my favorite fighter to watch.

[Robinson]

Agreed. Plenty of guys out there who I do not like from what I see
they are like on a personal level.

But damned Ill watch them fight.

[Elton John]

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

That is sad for a great fighter of his caliber that could have been greater fighter if he would have fought those same guys again.

Also many people rate him way too high in the all-time pound per pound or all time welterweight greats in the rankings. He DID NOT HAD ENOUGH FIGHTS to be considered above like guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Tony Canzoneri for example for the p4p ratings and DID NOT STAY TOO LONG at welterweight to be viewed at least with the top 3 welter greats.

Did Duran give Buchanan a rematch? Moore? Barkley? Did Hearns give Cuevas a rematch? Benitez? Andries? Hill?

He should have given Hearns a rematch after the second fight, I would agree to that, but there's no particular shame in him not giving Hearns an immediate rematch after the first fight.

Leonard did not have many fights, but in those 30 something fights he fought some of the best fighters of all time. Just like Frazier.

It's absurd to say that Leonard isn't one of the greatest Welterweights of all time. There's no rule that says that you have to be in a division for a certain amount of time to be considered one of the greats.

Did Cuevas ever beat Hearns? Was Moore ahead on points going into the 14th round? Was Benitez ? (vs. Hearns) Don't bother answering!

Speaking of a leonard-Hearns rematch if Tommy as beat up as he was in '88 where he held Ray to a draw I hate to think what he would have done with him 4 years earlier. This was the time for Ray to summon the courage for a fight, something only the Marvelous one would have asked for. Ray was active you know!

So what happened that made him want to quit the ring once more. Wasn't he suppossed to be an all time great? He certainly didn't look like one.

[Elton John]

I knew plenty of people who hated Leonard before his first fight with Duran. Never understood it. If anything they should have hated Duran for KO'ing Buchanan with a shot to the nads and talking about sending Lampkin to the graveyard.

Leonard was just one of those very rare fighters, who you could see as an 18 yr old amateur, and you knew you were watching a guy who was going to be an alltime great.

Maybe it was all the hype he was getting from the media. Perhaps the face he resembled Ali not to mention mimicked his every move in the ring and even had his own version of the 3 year layoff

Or the fact he had Angelo Dundee in his corner. Or perhaps he had all his fights televised on network television, something the better fighters got only once or twice as filler.

[Elton John]

what Armstrong did, can you do these days ? or in Leonards time ?

Yes. This has actually happned in our generation but only if you're a born winner like Roy Jones Jr. Leonard was not good enough so he needed matches with Lalonde where he could get win two titles same night for beating on a clubfighter which does not make sense to me. This only confirms the special treatment he is accused of getting throughout his career.

Now if you're Roy Jones jr., certainly you cant take matters into your own hands with any opponent ranging from 160 all the way up to 200 pounds and pull off miracles in the manner that he did all the while dominating in every division.

Ray Leonard knew he could hever hope to make a successful defense at 160 because the competition was simply to young and energetic for him - ala Terrible Terry Norris.

Think how embarrassing it would have been for him to work his greatest achievement over Hagler and then immediately losing the title in his first defense. It would have been an almost repeat of what happened to him upon winning the welterweight title from Benitez.

And you could forget about defenses at 175. We all know it was just a gimmick that's why no Ray Leonard fans brings it up because it just draws negative attention. Other than that this match should only fool the general sports fan who knows almost nothing of the sport-the Jack Nicolson's, the Gene Hackman's, the John and Bo Derek's the Micheal J Fox's of the world, not to mention all the young impressionable children.

But the rest of us know better

Only Roy Jones would have the chutzpuh, the audacity, to attack an entire division like the supermiddleweights and light heavyweights make 11 defenses and then with the greatest of ease unify the titles.

Hope this answers your question.

[Robinson]

EJ

How did you score Hagler-Leonard ?

[Elton John]

Robinson, how did you score Norris-leonard?

[Elton John]

OK I'll stop joking with you. Several rounds were too close the way I saw them. Some could have gone to Hagler some could have gone to leonard. It seemed that Hagler was pushing this fight at a pace that was just slow enough to make it even. Rounds 2,4 leonard rounds 1, 3 even

round 5 hagler
round 6 leonard
round 7 even (I do not give points for flurrying after the bell)
round 8 Hagler
round 9,10, 11 Hagler
round 12 Leonard

Round 9 could have been even so at the worst Hagler gets a draw. Hagler looked terrible to be sure but the point is and this is what gets many people upset, he did not do enough to take off with Hagler's title.

[Robinson]

Norris-Leonard I had for Norris by sheer ownage.

[Collins2000]

Elton John for sheer unadulterated repetitive biased ignorance just became the first to be entered into my ignore list.

Yes, he beat Elmo and little Davey.

[Robinson]

Plus he has bad hair.

[I Feel Fine]

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

That is sad for a great fighter of his caliber that could have been greater fighter if he would have fought those same guys again.

Also many people rate him way too high in the all-time pound per pound or all time welterweight greats in the rankings. He DID NOT HAD ENOUGH FIGHTS to be considered above like guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Tony Canzoneri for example for the p4p ratings and DID NOT STAY TOO LONG at welterweight to be viewed at least with the top 3 welter greats.

Did Duran give Buchanan a rematch? Moore? Barkley? Did Hearns give Cuevas a rematch? Benitez? Andries? Hill?

He should have given Hearns a rematch after the second fight, I would agree to that, but there's no particular shame in him not giving Hearns an immediate rematch after the first fight.

Leonard did not have many fights, but in those 30 something fights he fought some of the best fighters of all time. Just like Frazier.

It's absurd to say that Leonard isn't one of the greatest Welterweights of all time. There's no rule that says that you have to be in a division for a certain amount of time to be considered one of the greats.

Did Cuevas ever beat Hearns? Was Moore ahead on points going into the 14th round? Was Benitez ? (vs. Hearns) Don't bother answering!

Speaking of a leonard-Hearns rematch if Tommy as beat up as he was in '88 where he held Ray to a draw I hate to think what he would have done with him 4 years earlier. This was the time for Ray to summon the courage for a fight, something only the Marvelous one would have asked for. Ray was active you know!

So what happened that made him want to quit the ring once more. Wasn't he suppossed to be an all time great? He certainly didn't look like one.

Some thought Benitez beat Hearns, actually.

Dumb post.

[Robinson]

I always liked Leonard as a commentator. When did he first start doing this ?

I always like listening to a commentary team when they have a good
articulate fighter on it. Sometimes, some fighters are not as media saavy
as there commentator partners.

[Elton John]

Some thought Benitez beat Hearns, actually.

Dumb post.

I've also heard it said some people thought Duran beat Wilfred. We can all say what we want - doesn't mean others believe it, the same problem faced by all liars.

[kikibalt]

Elton John for sheer unadulterated repetitive biased ignorance just became the first to be entered into my ignore list.

Yes, he beat Elmo and little Davey.

Elton John a.k.a "Ultimo"

[Elton John]

Elton John for sheer unadulterated repetitive biased ignorance just became the first to be entered into my ignore list.

Yes, he beat Elmo and little Davey.

Elton John a.k.a "Ultimo"

For a while I didnt think you were going to figure it out. Who told you?

[kikibalt]

Elton John for sheer unadulterated repetitive biased ignorance just became the first to be entered into my ignore list.

Yes, he beat Elmo and little Davey.

Elton John a.k.a "Ultimo"

For a while I didnt think you were going to figure it out. Who told you?

"Pacific Palisades"...

[elmersalsa]

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

That is sad for a great fighter of his caliber that could have been greater fighter if he would have fought those same guys again.

Also many people rate him way too high in the all-time pound per pound or all time welterweight greats in the rankings. He DID NOT HAD ENOUGH FIGHTS to be considered above like guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Tony Canzoneri for example for the p4p ratings and DID NOT STAY TOO LONG at welterweight to be viewed at least with the top 3 welter greats.

Did Duran give Buchanan a rematch? Moore? Barkley? Did Hearns give Cuevas a rematch? Benitez? Andries? Hill?

He should have given Hearns a rematch after the second fight, I would agree to that, but there's no particular shame in him not giving Hearns an immediate rematch after the first fight.

Leonard did not have many fights, but in those 30 something fights he fought some of the best fighters of all time. Just like Frazier.

It's absurd to say that Leonard isn't one of the greatest Welterweights of all time. There's no rule that says that you have to be in a division for a certain amount of time to be considered one of the greats.

You asked me if Duran ever gave Buchanan a rematch? To answer that, I tell you "No"...What were Duran's reasons? I don't know, but I think he was AFRAID of Ken of losing his crown in his very first defense fighting Ken again. He said that Buchanan was his toughest foe, even though he completely dominated Buchanan from the very first bell.

Why Duran never gave Davey Moore a rematch? I ask you this: "Did Moore ever asked for one?"...I don't recall him publicly saying he wanted Duran again.

Why Duran never gave Iran Barkley a rematch? He wanted to fight Barkley sometime in the 90s. Plus, a rematch would not meant anything anyway. Duran was waaaaayyyy past his prime. If he loses to Barkley in a rematch, NOT MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN SURPRISED.

Why Duran never gave Pipino Cuevas a rematch? The fight was billed as "The Night of the Washed Up Legends"..The winner continues his career. The loser, who was Cuevas, go home and retire.

Cuevas NEVER asked Hearns for a rematch. It was UNDERSTANDABLE.
Benitez NEVER called Hearns for a rematch. I don't think he wanted one.
Duran NEVER called Hearns for a rematch. It was UNDERSTANDABLE.
A Hearns vs Hill rematch would not meant anything. That is the same example of Duran vs Barkley.
A Hearns vs Andries rematch? NOBODY WOULD HAVE CARED.

Now, speaking of the great Sugar Ray Leonard. He was one of my favorite fighters. But I cannot rate him with the top 3 greatest welterweights, because first, he did not stay there long enough like Robinson, Armstrong, Griffith or Gavilan nor dominated the class like the ones above. Probably at welterweight, he was better than Griffith, and still that is TOO TOUGH TO CALL.

I HAVE NEVER SAID HE WAS NOT A TOP WELTERWEIGHT. HE GOT HIS PLACE, IN MY VIEW WITH THE TOP 4 or 5 WELTERWEIGHTS EVER, NOT TOP 3.

There is no shame not giving Hearns a rematch, immediately after that big win. But what I am saying if Hearns would have won the fight, Leonard would have asked for a rematch IMMEDIATELY, just like he did with Duran, and PROBABLY, Hearns, would have NEVER HESITATED to give him one...That is all I am saying.