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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 07:50
by kikibalt
From the CBZ

Kiki:

I'm having trouble posting on the other thread so am writing you here to let you know that I am pulling for you to get well, feel better, and bounce back into action on the "net.

There's talk on the other thread about the round ring used at the bay area shipyards during WW II. I have written about it before. It was invented by the Associated Press Director in San Fancisco, Russ Newland and was used only on a limited basis because the fighters couldn't quite adapt to its odd structure.

Newland was a true friend of the guys in the fight game up north, as was his counterpart in southern California, Bob Meyers. The fight mob in the bay region named one of their annual boxing awards in Newland's honor in the late 1950s.

regards

hap navarro

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 07:56
by kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 08:47
by kikibalt
bennie wrote:
Randyman wrote:Hey Frank, here's a pot of Menudo con Patas.
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Christ almighty! It looks like the chef's hand in there.
It taste better then it looks, like Randy said its great for a hang-over, you guys that will be at the WBHOF Saturday nite may need some come Sunday morning.... :lol: :TU:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 10:44
by bennie
Just had something similar: chicken (or hand) casserole.

It went down a treat on a bloody cold day.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 10:54
by Bobbin & Weavin
kikibalt wrote:From the CBZ

Kiki:

I'm having trouble posting on the other thread so am writing you here to let you know that I am pulling for you to get well, feel better, and bounce back into action on the "net.

There's talk on the other thread about the round ring used at the bay area shipyards during WW II. I have written about it before. It was invented by the Associated Press Director in San Fancisco, Russ Newland and was used only on a limited basis because the fighters couldn't quite adapt to its odd structure.

Newland was a true friend of the guys in the fight game up north, as was his counterpart in southern California, Bob Meyers. The fight mob in the bay region named one of their annual boxing awards in Newland's honor in the late 1950s.

regards

hap navarro
Hap & Frank,
That was me and Rick talking about the round ring, it has always been interesting to me and I have always wondered why it wasn't used more, could be a good negotiating point for a good boxer against a good puncher. There is a picture of it in one of the books I have at home, I will try to scan it tonight and post it. Hap thanks for the additional information.
Bobbin & Weavin

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 12:17
by dagosd2000
Randyman wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:A BIGGER MAN


My son weighed 150 pounds and played center on the high school football team. he was our only center, so if he went down we'd probably forfeit. He was tough as nails. In the 9th grade he could bench press over 300 pounds. There wasn't an once of fat on him. He was born with a fissure on his spine. He played 3 sports. Football,wrestling,and ran the low hurdles on the track team. He made all league in all three sports. But Ramon wasn't a jock. He went out there to please me,reluctantly.

I told this before ,but 10 years ago he and his friend were kidnapped at gun point by some gang members. They wanted Ramon's car and they were going to kill him and his friend. Ramon disarmed both gang members,but was shot 4 times in the process. He never told his parenrs about what happened until he fully recovered. We thought he'd gone on a vacation.

I remember we played a big footbal game that was going to determine the league title. Ramon during the week had injured his knee. He suited for the game with a "soft" cast that went from his thigh down to his ankle. Then before the game,he came down with an allergy problem. His temperature was 103. Ramon still wanted to play. All this with a painfull back. We didn't have another center.

That night Ramon played the whole game. He was on defense also. At halftime his face was swollen and he sprawled on the locker room floor. I was scared.
"Ramon,you don't have to play. Honest son,don't do thios for me."
Ramon opened his swollen eyes.
"I'm not doing this for you."

Ramon went back out there. He played magnificantly. After the the game we went home and he slept for 2 days.

I often think about my son. He had guts when he knew he had to come through.. He saved his friend's life that night when those gang bangers wanted to kill them,and he snapped the ball on every play the night we won the league champoinship.

If you ever meet Ramon,you'll have to ask him about the kidnapping and the game. But I doubt he'll talk about it much.
Rog, I'd like to shake that kid's hand someday.
Thanks Randy
He never gave us any problems. All the grandkids and great grandkids love him. He comes down at Christmas and showers gifts on all the kids. I know my wife worries about him and would like to see him more.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 12:21
by dagosd2000
Chuck1052 wrote:I don't think that the Australian boxers get enough credit for being so influential during the early days of the Marquis of Queensberry Rules. Moreover, so many of boxers from "Down Under" (club fighters, journeymen and world-class fighters) came to the United States during the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, much like Filipino boxers did during the 1920s and 1930s.

- Chuck Johnston
Chuck
Just got done with the book. Vey interesting stuff. The history of Vernon Ca. and Jack Doyle cleared a lot of things up with me. Also,some great photos. Rog

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 13:14
by bennie
Randy Gordon on the CBZ...


What's he like?

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 14:07
by kikibalt
bennie wrote:Randy Gordon on the CBZ...


What's he like?
Randy Gordon, like most boxing insider has a big ego, having said that, if you can get past his ego, he is a o-k guy.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 14:16
by Randyman
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This is what an aging fighter looks like that has not yet had one fight too many.......


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.........This is what an aging fighter looks like that has.



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They never see it coming.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 16:43
by Boxingnut
bennie wrote:Randy Gordon on the CBZ...


What's he like?
he is a bit full of himself Bennie. Then again what do you expect from a guy who once ended one of his TV broadcasts by looking directly at the camera and said with a straight face "This is Randy Gordon saying goodbye and remember as you walk thru the arena of life keep your chin tucked in and your hands held high". He does have the odd insightful story tho.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 19:15
by Chuck1052
Roger- Thanks for the compliments for the book about L.A. boxing by Tracy Callis and myself!

- Chuck Johnston

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 19:16
by kikibalt
Courtesy-Rob Morris

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 19:18
by kikibalt
Courtesy-Rob Morris

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 19:26
by Expug
Well, Ive got my itenerary in front of me and , I was able to get an earlier flight.
I will be touching down in LA at 9.28 Pm Fri the 14th.
Flight 6449.
Gonna be a good time.
Is 9.30 past any ones bedtime out there? :wink:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 19:28
by kikibalt
Is Lennox Lewis an All Time Great?
By Geoff “The Professor” Pounder
Ringside Report

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Lennox Lewis
By Diego

It is perhaps not surprising with Samuel Peter having been exposed as a fraud, and with the Klitschko brothers rise to the top of the heavyweight championship, that there should come calls for Lennox Lewis to step out of retirement and clean the whole mess up. After all, Lennox was the last heavyweight to have been able to legitimately lay claim to being the undisputed best of his era.

That Lewis was the dominant heavyweight of his time is not open to question – but where does it place him alongside the all-time greats of the flagship division? Does Lewis bear comparison with the likes of Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson?

His record was sound on paper: only 2 losses in 44 contests, with both those losses avenged in emphatic style – Lewis can claim to be only one of two heavyweights in history to have beaten every man he faced, which should place him squarely at the top table of any all-time heavyweight list.

Yet for all his undoubted abilities, Lennox Lewis was never able to quite grasp the imagination of the boxing public in the way that Ali, or Tyson, or even Holyfield was able to. There are striking similarities with the career of Larry Holmes, who fought in the shadow of Ali despite being a true and great champion, in that Lewis was never able to generate the kind of excitement at fight-time that Mike Tyson was able to engender. Of course, we all tuned in to Lennox’s title contests as we dutifully do whenever two men are pitched into a contest for the heavyweight title – but never with the same throb of anticipation that accompanied Tyson as he approached a ring.

Maybe this was because Lewis appeared to adopt a safety first approach to his boxing too often, something that certainly could never be said of Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson. It’s true that the general public, not necessarily steeped in the beauty of boxing for boxing’s sake, likes it’s Heavyweight Champion to be a brawler, a predator, a man evincing menace and thuggery – and if they can’t have that they look for an entertainer, a man dripping with charisma and charm, disdainfully dismantling his foe with wit and wisdom. They want the bull, or the matador, and will shout equally for both.

The trouble for Lewis, and probably for Holmes, is that they were neither. Lewis boxed conservatively (never a good word to attach to a heavyweight champion) and skillfully, and often found himself dominant in fights that invariably stunk the place out. Unable to maintain an aura of invincibility through two crushing knockout defeats to middling contenders Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, Lennox took a hesitancy into the ring that left on-lookers dissatisfied with performance after performance, and it was only very late in his career, when he dismantled an aged and unhinged Tyson, and then very nearly came unstuck against Vitali Klitschko, that Lennox finally came to life, at least in the public’s fickle imagination.

The question is: should an assessment of Lewis’s place in history be marred by a lack of the popular vote when he was clearly an outstanding fighter with a huge arsenal of gifts at his disposal. After all, he beat everyone that was put in front of him: Tyson, Holyfield, Shannon Briggs, Andrew Golota, Ray Mercer, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock, Frans Botha, Michael Grant. These were the “names” in his heavyweight division – and whilst some claim that Lewis made a lucrative career out of fighting nobodies, I say take a look at Mike Tyson’s record. The “names” are pretty much the same, and where there are uncommon opponents, Lewis’s were of equal quality to Iron Mike’s.

If I have to take task with Lennox, it’s that he ushered in the age of the giant Heavyweight. Before Lewis came along, men who stood more than 6 feet 4 inches were thought of as too big to be capable pugilists – and history bore this out. Before Lewis won his first WBC Title in 1993 there were two “tall” Heavyweight Champions – Jess Willard (6ft 6 1/2inches) , who reigned between 1915 and 1919, and Primo Carnera (6ft 5 ½ inches) who held the title between 1933 and 1934.

Now both Willard and Carnera hold the distinction of being, in many commentators’ views, the very worst combatants ever to have laid hands on the championship! Willard won his title in dubious circumstances when he knocked out the great Jack Johnson in Havana, Cuba in 1915 (Johnson later claimed he threw the fight), defended it once in four years, before 6 feet 1 inch Jack Dempsey took him apart in the most brutal three rounds of boxing seen before or since in a heavyweight ring. Carnera, who was nicknamed sweetly “The Ambling Alp”, was marketed more often than not as an oddity, and was widely thought to be mafia-managed, to the extent that his annexing of the title with a 6th round knockout of Jack Sharkey in 1933 was felt in some quarters to have been pre-ordained. Certainly when Carnera came up against the enigmatic and prodigiously talented Max Baer a year later, he was bounced off the canvas 11 times in 11 rounds, before the referee called a merciless halt to proceedings.

Until Lewis came along at 6 feet 5 inch, the best heavyweights tended to measure somewhere around 6ft 1inches to 6 feet 3inches tall. Of course, since Lewis, they’ve shot up still further, with the Klitschko brothers over 6’6,” and of course the freakish Nikolay Valuev, who stands over 7 feet tall. The point is – such height may well translate into a certain type of physical advantage, but it may also prove disadvantageous in terms of speed, leverage (it’s harder to punch down than up) and mobility. It is perhaps informative that the likes of Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson stood less than six feet tall, and the most-often stated all-time greats in the division, stood just over 6 feet tall – Louis, Dempsey and Johnson. Ali, of course, was a big heavyweight for his day, at 6 feet 3 inches. When these Champions stood across from a ring with the giants of their day, they invariably had easy nights. Dempsey had his Willard, Joe Louis dispatched the 6 feet 6 inch Buddy Baer in less than a round, and Ali destroyed Ernie Terrell (6 feet 6 inches) in 1967.

So what does all this have to do with Lennox Lewis’s legacy? Well, it’s this scribe’s view that Lewis was a good, big heavyweight in an era when that was often enough to get him through. He struggled with Evander Holyfield, a “small” but highly skilled protagonist, and got himself knocked out by two smaller men in McCall and Rahman. It has been said that had Lennox had an opponent worthy of him, a Frazier to his Ali, then he would have been more highly thought of. Many people believe that that opponent should have been Riddick Bowe, had he not frittered away his promise on cheeseburgers and paranoia. We’ll never know, although one suspects that given the problems that Holyfield presented for Bowe, the latter was not perhaps destined for the heights that Lennox himself managed to climb.

In conclusion, then, Lewis was good, but not great. I don’t believe he would have beaten the likes of Dempsey, Louis, Ali or Johnson – and in fact, I believe he would have been taken out by an in-prime Tyson (ie before Kevin Rooney jumped ship). For this writer, Lewis stands just outside the top ten or fifteen heavyweights of all time. Granted, he was thirty-seven when in his final contest he took on Vitali Klitschko, but he came desperately close to annihilation in that match against a man who’s family have set new standards of heavyweight clumsiness. I invite anyone to watch over the tape of Klitschko in the Lewis and Peter fights, and then go into the archives and pull out some footage of the Ambling Alp, Primo Carnera himself, in action. The similarity is startling.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 20:01
by Randyman
I took the day off from work today. I'm glad I did. Jeri made a pot roast today. With new potatoes, celery, carrots, onion, a few bay leaves, salt and pepper and little else. Too much seasoning ruins a pot roast. I want the flavor of the beef and vegetables to come through. We had an early dinner.

After we ate we drove up to Rose Hill Cemetery to visit our grandson Nathan. It's always difficult but when my wife wants to go, I never tell her no. She cleaned the headstone and cleared away the over growth of grass. It's like a healing ritual for her. It always leaves me feeling a little blue when we leave.

Nathan is my daughter Meranda's son. He passed away in 2001. I don't think any of us will ever really get over it. Meranda handles it well but she has her days. My wife has her days too. Today was one of them. It will never seem fair. We understand when our parents die. It hurts but we understand that it is part of the cycle of life....and death. We don't understand it when one of our kids dies.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 20:12
by dagosd2000
Randyman wrote:Hey Frank, here's a pot of Menudo con Patas.
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I've been fighting a cold. Geez that looks good. Some oregano,limon,onions,radishes,and plenty of hot sauce. Here's to your health!

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 20:29
by Randyman
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The above fighter, 36 years old Gabe Brown weighed in at 350 pounds. Brown lost a unanimous decision to Dominick Guinn, on the undercard of the Joe Calzaghe-Roy Jones Jr fight. No surprise there. Brown is 18-9-4 and is 0-3-3 in his last six fights. No surprise there either.

What is a surprise is that everyone involved with the fight didn't spend at least a night in jail for letting this guy step into the ring in such atrocious condition. At the very least they should be flogged, tarred and feathered and run out of town. Or perhaps they should do to them what the Native Americans used to do to a cheating wife,......cut off the tip of the nose. Mark them so everyone will know. Am I the only one that feels this way? Anything for a buck?

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 20:35
by Expug
I agree with you Randy.
What to do as the fighter in the other corner also?
Just get him out of there as fast as possible so as to not hurt the guy I guess.
This kinda shit is wrong man. It really is.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 20:39
by Randyman
Expug wrote:I agree with you Randy.
What to do as the fighter in the other corner also?
Just get him out of there as fast as possible so as to not hurt the guy I guess.
This kinda shit is wrong man. It really is.
To use Mel Epstein's word,.....those F*cken Bastids!

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 22:07
by Randyman
Sugar Ray Leonard by Roger Esty

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I have never been a fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Not my kind of fighter, not my kind of guy. I don't know him personally but it's just a gut feeling. If I have to pick a moment when I first started to dislike Leonard, it was probably the second fight with Roberto Duran, although I didn't care too much for him before that either. I never forgave him. Duran was my guy. My kind of fighter, my kind of guy. Macho, earthy, A fighter's fighter.

Duran was a throwback, old school fighter, Leonard was a new age fighter. Different ways to win. The transition from the old school fighters to the new age fighters took place on November 25, 1980 at the Superdome, New Orleans. Leonard, as would Pernall Whitaker, and to some degree Floyd Mayweather Jr. brought another ingredient to the fight, embarrassment. It became fashionable to humiliate your opponent. Take away his pride. I think that Duran, a fighter's fighter, just became frustrated with Leonard's antics during the fight and just said "the hell with it". Leonard won the fight that night but I didn't think he was a fighter.

Leonard, of course, would prove me wrong (to some degree) with his wins over Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler. You have to respect that, I suppose (I felt Hagler won their fight and Hearns won their second fight). But if you look at his record, his accomplishments are minimal. The other big name on his resume is Wilfredo Benitez. Nothing stellar about his record.

I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 22:10
by Randyman
Expug wrote:I agree with you Randy.
What to do as the fighter in the other corner also?
Just get him out of there as fast as possible so as to not hurt the guy I guess.
This kinda shit is wrong man. It really is.
This should be clear evidence to anyone paying attention, just why boxing is losing so many fans to MMA/UFC or to any other sports in general.

Randy :oops:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 22:43
by dagosd2000
Randyman wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard by Roger Esty

Image

I have never been a fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Not my kind of fighter, not my kind of guy. I don't know him personally but it's just a gut feeling. If I have to pick a moment when I first started to dislike Leonard, it was probably the second fight with Roberto Duran, although I didn't care too much for him before that either. I never forgave him. Duran was my guy. My kind of fighter, my kind of guy. Macho, earthy, A fighter's fighter.

Duran was a throwback, old school fighter, Leonard was a new age fighter. Different ways to win. The transition from the old school fighters to the new age fighters took place on November 25, 1980 at the Superdome, New Orleans. Leonard, as would Pernall Whitaker, and to some degree Floyd Mayweather Jr. brought another ingredient to the fight, embarrassment. It became fashionable to humiliate your opponent. Take away his pride. I think that Duran, a fighter's fighter, just became frustrated with Leonard's antics during the fight and just said "the hell with it". Leonard won the fight that night but I didn't think he was a fighter.

Leonard, of course, would prove me wrong (to some degree) with his wins over Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler. You have to respect that, I suppose (I felt Hagler won their fight and Hearns won their second fight). But if you look at his record, his accomplishments are minimal. The other big name on his resume is Wilfredo Benitez. Nothing stellar about his record.

I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter.
That was the first time Randy posted one of my pics on the thread.Thanks Randy. That was his story also.

THE GREATEST

I used to have problem with Leonard. I thought he was a bit too flashy outside the ring,but looking back on it ,I wasn't looking at Ray properly. Yeh,Duran was the macho guy,but I don't recall Ray laying flat on his face from Hearn's right hand,and ,if you look at it,Ray had more heart than Roberto. "No Mas". What the hell was that all about? Not very "macho."

Ray has always been personable. He's said in public that Tommy Hearns beat him the second time. Now what fighter would admit to something like that? Also,he sees that Tommy isn't doing that well. Ray has all his faculties. He reaches out to Hearns.

Ray never put on that "macho" act like Duran or that unkindness towards an opponent like Tyson. When Ray wanted to use Ray Robinson's nickname,he asked permission. When people would make comparisions with Leonard and Robinson,Leonard would laugh.
"Me?,scoffed Leonard."I'm no Sugar Ray Robinson. I had 50 fights. Sugar Ray was the greatest."

Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the "Greatest",but you're pretty great too.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 10 Nov 2008, 22:58
by Randyman
dagosd2000 wrote:
Randyman wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard by Roger Esty

Image

I have never been a fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Not my kind of fighter, not my kind of guy. I don't know him personally but it's just a gut feeling. If I have to pick a moment when I first started to dislike Leonard, it was probably the second fight with Roberto Duran, although I didn't care too much for him before that either. I never forgave him. Duran was my guy. My kind of fighter, my kind of guy. Macho, earthy, A fighter's fighter.

Duran was a throwback, old school fighter, Leonard was a new age fighter. Different ways to win. The transition from the old school fighters to the new age fighters took place on November 25, 1980 at the Superdome, New Orleans. Leonard, as would Pernall Whitaker, and to some degree Floyd Mayweather Jr. brought another ingredient to the fight, embarrassment. It became fashionable to humiliate your opponent. Take away his pride. I think that Duran, a fighter's fighter, just became frustrated with Leonard's antics during the fight and just said "the hell with it". Leonard won the fight that night but I didn't think he was a fighter.

Leonard, of course, would prove me wrong (to some degree) with his wins over Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler. You have to respect that, I suppose (I felt Hagler won their fight and Hearns won their second fight). But if you look at his record, his accomplishments are minimal. The other big name on his resume is Wilfredo Benitez. Nothing stellar about his record.

I will always believe that Duran, at his best, was the better man, the better fighter. As the saying goes when "Duran was Duran". Duran is my kind of guy, my kind of fighter.
That was the first time Randy posted one of my pics on the thread.Thanks Randy. That was his story also.

THE GREATEST

I used to have problem with Leonard. I thought he was a bit too flashy outside the ring,but looking back on it ,I wasn't looking at Ray properly. Yeh,Duran was the macho guy,but I don't recall Ray laying flat on his face from Hearn's right hand,and ,if you look at it,Ray had more heart than Roberto. "No Mas". What the hell was that all about? Not very "macho."

Ray has always been personable. He's said in public that Tommy Hearns beat him the second time. Now what fighter would admit to something like that? Also,he sees that Tommy isn't doing that well. Ray has all his faculties. He reaches out to Hearns.

Ray never put on that "macho" act like Duran or that unkindness towards an opponent like Tyson. When Ray wanted to use Ray Robinson's nickname,he asked permission. When people would make comparisions with Leonard and Robinson,Leonard would laugh.
"Me?,scoffed Leonard."I'm no Sugar Ray Robinson. I had 50 fights. Sugar Ray was the greatest."

Sugar Ray Robinson may have been the "Greatest",but you're pretty great too.
Yeah, I normally don't post them because that's usually Frank's territory but since he isn't feeling well I thought I would pick up the slack a little. Great painting Rog, and great colors.

I'll concede somewhat on Leonard but I still feel he is overrated to a degree. But I do have more respect for him now than I did in his early years. Maybe it's just my own Latino pride and bias coming into play, it's entirely possible, but irregardless, I stand by my last sentence.

Randy :box:

By the way, if Leonard thinks he had 50 fights, he took more shots to the head than I thought. He only had 40.