BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:40 Tyson today surpassed Jack Dempsey’s reign as holder of The Linear Crown. He is now second behind Joe Louis.

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

In the Fury's alternative reality he is also the people's Champion too

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 11:16

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:49

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:40 Tyson today surpassed Jack Dempsey’s reign as holder of The Linear Crown. He is now second behind Joe Louis.

If you're including retirement, then Jim Jeffries was lineal champ until he fought Johnson, which was 11 years from when he won it.

Keith, don’t shoot the messenger…. I’ve seen the official list.

The list is wrong and Lennox Lewis is still the lineal heavyweight champion.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:53

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 11:16

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:49

If you're including retirement, then Jim Jeffries was lineal champ until he fought Johnson, which was 11 years from when he won it.

Keith, don’t shoot the messenger…. I’ve seen the official list.

The list is wrong and Lennox Lewis is still the lineal heavyweight champion.

Sorry, mate, it’s official. Second longest in history.

But he's not as tall as Nikolai Valuev.

'I've seen the official list'

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:55

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:53

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 11:16
Keith, don’t shoot the messenger…. I’ve seen the official list.

The list is wrong and Lennox Lewis is still the lineal heavyweight champion.

Sorry, mate, it’s official. Second longest in history.

It's official because you read it on the internet? I think not. I could read that Henry VIII had eight wives on the net and could tell you it's official. It don't make it so.

My Jim Jeffries calculation is based on something called facts.

What makes you think that Lennox Lewis is not the lineal heavyweight champion?

Didn't Jim Jeffries bequeath it to Marvin Hart ?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 14:13

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:55

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:53
The list is wrong and Lennox Lewis is still the lineal heavyweight champion.

Sorry, mate, it’s official. Second longest in history.

It's official because you read it on the internet? I think not. I could read that Henry VIII had eight wives on the net and could tell you it's official. It don't make it so.

My Jim Jeffries calculation is based on something called facts.

What makes you think that Lennox Lewis is not the lineal heavyweight champion?

I would argue that Lewis is the last lineal HW champion indeed, in the classical sense of the term. However, it's very tricky to decide how and when a new lineage starts. Because if we don't consider there's a new lineage after Lewis, that means Lewis will be the last lineal forever since he retired hence nobody can beat him. When Marciano retired as lineal (and undefeated) champion, a new lineage was started with Patterson. Similarly, when Louis retired in 1949, a new lineage was started with Charles, despite the fact that Charles only beat Louis more than a year later.

So under what circumstances do we consider a new lineage legit?

887986 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:05

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 14:13

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 13:55
Sorry, mate, it’s official. Second longest in history.

It's official because you read it on the internet? I think not. I could read that Henry VIII had eight wives on the net and could tell you it's official. It don't make it so.

My Jim Jeffries calculation is based on something called facts.

What makes you think that Lennox Lewis is not the lineal heavyweight champion?

I would argue that Lewis is the last lineal HW champion indeed, in the classical sense of the term. However, it's very tricky to decide how and when a new lineage starts. Because if we don't consider there's a new lineage after Lewis, that means Lewis will be the last lineal forever since he retired hence nobody can beat him. When Marciano retired as lineal (and undefeated) champion, a new lineage was started with Patterson. Similarly, when Louis retired in 1949, a new lineage was started with Charles, despite the fact that Charles only beat Louis more than a year later.

So under what circumstances do we consider a new lineage legit?

Gene Tunney also retired with the title. For me there are two possibles for lineage.....

1. When a boxer retires, he vacates the title permanently.
2. The lineal champion keeps the title until he dies.

With that in mind.

1. Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.
2. Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:40 Tyson today surpassed Jack Dempsey’s reign as holder of The Linear Crown. He is now second behind Joe Louis.

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

Would a PED ban not forfeit the title either?

Well that's it official then. If the Lineal championship's being brought up, then Fury's definitely bottled it against Usyk.
It appears Big John messed up when letting slip the Saudi's weren't paying what they wanted, the original excuse about not having a venue available in time (just 6 weeks to build the Joshua v Ruiz stadium) appears to be a smokescreen.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 14:13
Gene Tunney also retired with the title. For me there are two possibles for lineage.....

1. When a boxer retires, he vacates the title permanently.
2. The lineal champion keeps the title until he dies.

With that in mind.

1. Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.
2. Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

What a superb post

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:18 Well that's it official then. If the Lineal championship's being brought up, then Fury's definitely bottled it against Usyk.
It appears Big John messed up when letting slip the Saudi's weren't paying what they wanted, the original excuse about not having a venue available in time (just 6 weeks to build the Joshua v Ruiz stadium) appears to be a smokescreen.

No, mate, it's official, everyone reporting it on Twitter, IFL etc, nothing from Team Fury. Its because he has surpassed the 7 years 2 months needed for second spot. Great to have recognition, i suppose.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:25

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:18 Well that's it official then. If the Lineal championship's being brought up, then Fury's definitely bottled it against Usyk.
It appears Big John messed up when letting slip the Saudi's weren't paying what they wanted, the original excuse about not having a venue available in time (just 6 weeks to build the Joshua v Ruiz stadium) appears to be a smokescreen.

No, mate, it's official, everyone reporting it on Twitter, IFL etc, nothing from Team Fury. Its because he has surpassed the 7 years 2 months needed for second spot. Great to have recognition, i suppose.

Thete, there, there Mickey. It's OK, everything's going to be alright.

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:27

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:25

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:18 Well that's it official then. If the Lineal championship's being brought up, then Fury's definitely bottled it against Usyk.
It appears Big John messed up when letting slip the Saudi's weren't paying what they wanted, the original excuse about not having a venue available in time (just 6 weeks to build the Joshua v Ruiz stadium) appears to be a smokescreen.

No, mate, it's official, everyone reporting it on Twitter, IFL etc, nothing from Team Fury. Its because he has surpassed the 7 years 2 months needed for second spot. Great to have recognition, i suppose.

Thete, there, there Mickey. It's OK, everything's going to be alright.

??? Where did that come from? Im fine, are you? You havent mentioned Paris Fury's weight for a few minutes....

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:28

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:27

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:25
No, mate, it's official, everyone reporting it on Twitter, IFL etc, nothing from Team Fury. Its because he has surpassed the 7 years 2 months needed for second spot. Great to have recognition, i suppose.

Thete, there, there Mickey. It's OK, everything's going to be alright.

??? Where did that come from? Im fine, are you? You havent mentioned Paris Fury's weight for a few minutes....

Ooh, you're giving it away now.
Ssshhhhh, it's OK.

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:40 Tyson today surpassed Jack Dempsey’s reign as holder of The Linear Crown. He is now second behind Joe Louis.

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

Would a PED ban not forfeit the title either?

Good point.

3, Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:31

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

Would a PED ban not forfeit the title either?

Good point.

3, Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:31

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

Would a PED ban not forfeit the title either?

Good point.

3, Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:31

Nightmare Roy wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 15:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 09:42

Lennox Lewis is the lineal heavyweight champion.

Would a PED ban not forfeit the title either?

Good point.

3, Fury is not the lineal heavyweight champion.

According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

lineal lineal, tyson fury lineal

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

It's all bollox, to be top dog he has to beat Usyk and you know that.

if you're insecure that your guy may not be seen as the king of the division, just cry lineal as loud as you can

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

It could be tricky to determine when a new lineage starts. Marciano and Luis retired as lineal champions and on both occasions, a new lineal champion was crowned. But even if we consider Wlad as the new lineal after Lewis, there are two issues why Fury is not a lineal champion any more/never was lineal in the first place:

1. He defeated Wlad while using illegal PEDs for which he was banned from the sport for two years
2. He arguably lost to Wallin who TKOd him - but Wallin was robbed due to Fury being the bigger draw and WBC wanting to milk the Fury-Wilder rematch big time
3. He officially retired in 2022 - only for a few months, but still, he vacated some belts and said that he would never return

:TU: HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.