BoxRec

Waaaay past your bedtime Mickey. Don't tell me that was keeping you up?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

What height and weight do they have for Paris Fury on cyber boxing zone?

paris fury has the classic ali/holmes build, big enough not to be a pushover, still small enough to float like a butterfly

6'3, 215-225, 78-81 inch reach for sure

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:59 Waaaay past your bedtime Mickey. Don't tell me that was keeping you up?

Could not help it, could you? You will sleep easier tonight having got that in. Same again tomorrow? Several times....

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:08

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:59 Waaaay past your bedtime Mickey. Don't tell me that was keeping you up?

Could not help it, could you? You will sleep easier tonight having got that in. Same again tomorrow? Several times....

Well you were off to your bed early last night?

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:13

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:08

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:59 Waaaay past your bedtime Mickey. Don't tell me that was keeping you up?

Could not help it, could you? You will sleep easier tonight having got that in. Same again tomorrow? Several times....

Well you were off to your bed early last night?

Here's a question for Mickey. In your opinion, when did Lennox Lewis cease being the Lineal Heavyweight Champion of the World?

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:13

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:08

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:59 Waaaay past your bedtime Mickey. Don't tell me that was keeping you up?

Could not help it, could you? You will sleep easier tonight having got that in. Same again tomorrow? Several times....

Well you were off to your bed early last night?

Different time zone, two nights ago...

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:18

The Gratest wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:13

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:08
Could not help it, could you? You will sleep easier tonight having got that in. Same again tomorrow? Several times....

Well you were off to your bed early last night?

Different time zone, two nights ago...

Well I didn't know that you were home again, did I?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

Similarly to Fury, other Heavyweight greats Fitzimmons, Corbett, Johnson, Dempsey, Willard, Louis and Ali also had at least two years of inactivity during their reigns
Source - Lineal Boxing Champion

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:36

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

Similarly to Fury, other Heavyweight greats Fitzimmons, Corbett, Johnson, Dempsey, Willard, Louis and Ali also had at least two years of inactivity during their reigns
Source - Lineal Boxing Champion

When did Lennox Lewis cease being the Lineal Heavyweight Champion of the World?

Ach, let Fury have it. It clearly means a lot to him, he's the first one to actually get a belt made for it, so let him cherish it.

aww that's cute

Actually, my mistake. It was Canelo's Mayan belt that he had after he best Wallin. It was mistakenly labeled as the Lineal belt in a report.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

One would probably think that but it's not historically sound considering we have examples throughout the sports history where the "true," or, "real," or, "lineal" title was on the line such as Johnson-Jefferies or Charles-Louis or Frazier-Ali.

The title from Figg to Tunney essentially went unbroken, but a new lineage had to be established when Tunney retired and never came back. And that lineage held until Rocky Marciano retired and never came back and a new lineage had to be established. That lineage held basically until Lennox Lewis retired and never came back so a new lineage had to be established.

Wladimir Klitschko > Tyson Fury is the latest lineage. And I suspect a whole new lineage will have to be created if Tyson Fury retires undefeated and never unretires. Whether people like it or not it always was a part of the sports history of who was considered the real champion versus the pretender or interim champion.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 19:58

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

One would probably think that but it's not historically sound considering we have examples throughout the sports history where the "true," or, "real," or, "lineal" title was on the line such as Johnson-Jefferies or Charles-Louis or Frazier-Ali.

The title from Figg to Tunney essentially went unbroken, but a new lineage had to be established when Tunney retired and never came back. And that lineage held until Rocky Marciano retired and never came back and a new lineage had to be established. That lineage held basically until Lennox Lewis retired and never came back so a new lineage had to be established.

Wladimir Klitschko > Tyson Fury is the latest lineage. And I suspect a whole new lineage will have to be created if Tyson Fury retires undefeated and never unretires. Whether people like it or not it always was a part of the sports history of who was considered the real champion versus the pretender or interim champion.

Lennox Lewis is still the lineal champion. If you don't think he is, when do you think he gave up that title?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 19:58

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 17:16 According to cyber boxing zone which is an excellent historical source of information they have Tyson Fury as the lineal heavyweight champion. Now technically if Lennox Lewis came out of retirement to challenge Tyson Fury then you could say that Tyson Fury was fighting for the real lineal championship but considering Lewis has been retired for such a long period of time and is obviously never going to come back then Fury is the lineal champion because he beat the man to be the man. Klitschko by default was the lineal champion on the basis of how many titles he had and for how long he held those titles.

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

One would probably think that but it's not historically sound considering we have examples throughout the sports history where the "true," or, "real," or, "lineal" title was on the line such as Johnson-Jefferies or Charles-Louis or Frazier-Ali.

The title from Figg to Tunney essentially went unbroken, but a new lineage had to be established when Tunney retired and never came back. And that lineage held until Rocky Marciano retired and never came back and a new lineage had to be established. That lineage held basically until Lennox Lewis retired and never came back so a new lineage had to be established.

Wladimir Klitschko > Tyson Fury is the latest lineage. And I suspect a whole new lineage will have to be created if Tyson Fury retires undefeated and never unretires. Whether people like it or not it always was a part of the sports history of who was considered the real champion versus the pretender or interim champion.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 20:03

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 19:58

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 18:24

Fury either lost the Lineal title when he retired, or Lewis is still the champion. It's not rocket surgery.

One would probably think that but it's not historically sound considering we have examples throughout the sports history where the "true," or, "real," or, "lineal" title was on the line such as Johnson-Jefferies or Charles-Louis or Frazier-Ali.

The title from Figg to Tunney essentially went unbroken, but a new lineage had to be established when Tunney retired and never came back. And that lineage held until Rocky Marciano retired and never came back and a new lineage had to be established. That lineage held basically until Lennox Lewis retired and never came back so a new lineage had to be established.

Wladimir Klitschko > Tyson Fury is the latest lineage. And I suspect a whole new lineage will have to be created if Tyson Fury retires undefeated and never unretires. Whether people like it or not it always was a part of the sports history of who was considered the real champion versus the pretender or interim champion.

Why are you ducking my question?

Considering Lennox Lewis has never unretired and has said it would take north of 100 million dollars for him to come out of retirement I don't think it's ever going to happen. You can only claim the lineal championship if you unretire. It's that simple.

Furthermore if one was to ask me when was the cutting off point for claiming the lineal championship I would say a solid decade would be sufficient. Why? It was perfectly acceptable for Jim Jefferies to be considered the lineal champion though he had been retired for 6 years, and Vitali Klitschko I still think holds some sort of special Championship Emeritus status and he has been retired since 2013 and most likely never to unretire.

Championship Emeritus is basically lineal status. Vitali was the lineal WBC champion and when he retired he was granted that position that if he ever unretired he would get an automatic shot at the WBC title superseding all mandatory challengers. He was retired for 4 years and came out of retirement and defeated Samuel Peter for the WBC title. So again there is a precedent even in modern times where the lineal title trumps anything presently going on.

But ultimately at the end of the day the lineal championship can only be applied if somebody comes out of retirement in order to defend it.

Here's an idea: technically, Usyk is the legit and reigning lineal champion, not Fury.

Fury was using PEDs when he beat Wlad. That in itself puts an asterisk to his lineal championship claims but what's more important: he was absent from the sport for 2 years because of the ban he got for using banned substances. This means that Wlad once again/still was the lineal champion when Joshua beat him. Usyk then went on to beat Joshua hence becoming the reigning lineal champion.

I guess a title is only as valuable as the opponents the champion defends it against. If Fury drifts off into (another) retirement taking on the level of opponent in Chisora, or repeatedly taking on an opponent he's previously beaten, then there's not much value to be attached to retaining that title, no matter the length of time.
Here's hoping Big John's slip up didn't completely reveal the true intentions for avoiding the current Ring ranked p4p #1 and HW champion.

887986 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 20:36 Here's an idea: technically, Usyk is the legit and reigning lineal champion, not Fury.

Fury was using PEDs when he beat Wlad. That in itself puts an asterisk to his lineal championship claims but what's more important: he was absent from the sport for 2 years because of the ban he got for using banned substances. This means that Wlad once again/still was the lineal champion when Joshua beat him. Usyk then went on to beat Joshua hence becoming the reigning lineal champion.

To be honest I would be far more suspicious of a man who started off as a middleweight in the amateurs becoming the heavyweight champion when it comes to drug use.

Personally I'm surprised they're still people out there who believe professional athletes don't take performance enhancing drugs because I'm convinced 90% of athletes regardless of sports are on something at one point or another.

You may as well put an asterisk around everybody's records. Basically every athlete from the 1960s onwards you may as well look at as being a person with a high probability of having taken steroids or human growth hormone or some other drug that helped benefit them in some way shape or form.

most dudes go crazy on the lineal just to try and wriggle out of the fact that their man hasnt beaten another guy out there vying for the throne . fury's team initially went crazy on it as a way to get around the fact that he didnt have any belts when he came back, while aj and wilder did

we dont have a ruler, far above the others, until fury-usyk fight

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 21:02

887986 wrote: ↑18 Feb 2023, 20:36 Here's an idea: technically, Usyk is the legit and reigning lineal champion, not Fury.

Fury was using PEDs when he beat Wlad. That in itself puts an asterisk to his lineal championship claims but what's more important: he was absent from the sport for 2 years because of the ban he got for using banned substances. This means that Wlad once again/still was the lineal champion when Joshua beat him. Usyk then went on to beat Joshua hence becoming the reigning lineal champion.

To be honest I would be far more suspicious of a man who started off as a middleweight in the amateurs becoming the heavyweight champion when it comes to drug use.

Personally I'm surprised they're still people out there who believe professional athletes don't take performance enhancing drugs because I'm convinced 90% of athletes regardless of sports are on something at one point or another.

You may as well put an asterisk around everybody's records. Basically every athlete from the 1960s onwards you may as well look at as being a person with a high probability of having taken steroids or human growth hormone or some other drug that helped benefit them in some way shape or form.

If Paris Fury can be 6ft 3" and 220lbs, why can't a former amateur middleweight?

usyk was a middleweight (165 in the ams) as a teenager, he was already boxing at heavyweight as a 20 year old and had several super heavyweight bouts in wsb before turning pro

i mean he doesnt have the natural size of big paris fury, but the middleweight stuff is overblown, and especially ironic when two of the guys to plant fury on his arse were around usyk's size