BoxRec

Hap, a fight that's always intrigued me was the 1944 bout in Boston between Willie Pep and Manuel Ortiz. Here you had two of the all-time greats of their divisions; in fact, each was arugably the best his division produced. Yet, news accounts that I've read say Pep won 8 of ten rounds, and Ortiz was never in the fight.

The fight, as I said, took place in Braves Stadium in Boston, so my guess is you didn't see it. But did you ever hear any scuttlebutt to explain Ortiz' rather dismal performance - or was it just a case of Pep being that great?

Thanks, Hap. I really enjoy your posts, and I'm glad you are here on the Forum. I told Frank a few months ago that I'd like to get you, Frank, Don Chagrin and Don Fraser in a room with a tape-recorder and then just let you guys talk about the old days for two or three hours. I could probably write a book with what I'd get.

Tom:

I posted an answer to your previous question a few pages back, so I hope you saw it.

I have no idea, nor did I ever approach Manuel on the Pep fight in Boston. Manuel was enigmatic to the highest degree, capable of beating lightweights one night, an unwilling pawn in the next one.

When he chose to be the real deal, he would be magnificent and when he did so, the patented, original ring style was so impressive it left us all in awe of the wonder of this fighter.

I will always believe that greatness is often in the eyes of the beholder, especially when it is made so patent as Ortiz was capable of doing. He was one of those individuals who took his natural fighting gifts for granted, thinking the profession was all a game to be enjoyed as much as any other game. Of course, we as fans, know that is not true. Boxing is fighting for a prixe and fame is fleeting in the ring. I don't think Manuel ever saw it that way, sadly.

There was a group of about six of us a half century ago who started out together more or less. Lou Magana was the oldest. Others were Jackie McCoy, Don Chargin, Art Aragon, Don Fraser and nyself. I was the only one who did not hang in there as a player, though I remained a fan.

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Tom:

I posted an answer to your previous question a few pages back, so I hope you saw it.

I have no idea, nor did I ever approach Manuel on the Pep fight in Boston. Manuel was enigmatic to the highest degree, capable of beating lightweights one night, an unwilling pawn in the next one.

When he chose to be the real deal, he would be magnificent and when he did so, the patented, original ring style was so impressive it left us all in awe of the wonder of this fighter.

I will always believe that greatness is often in the eyes of the beholder, especially when it is made so patent as Ortiz was capable of doing. He was one of those individuals who took his natural fighting gifts for granted, thinking the profession was all a game to be enjoyed as much as any other game. Of course, we as fans, know that is not true. Boxing is fighting for a prixe and fame is fleeting in the ring. I don't think Manuel ever saw it that way, sadly.

There was a group of about six of us a half century ago who started out together more or less. Lou Magana was the oldest. Others were Jackie McCoy, Don Chargin, Art Aragon, Don Fraser and nyself. I was the only one who did not hang in there as a player, though I remained a fan.

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Hap, I've only seen two tapes of Ortiz in action. One a very long time ago; the other recently. In the one that I have, he is defending his title against a shorter opponent (whose name I can't recall - the guy looked like he was about 4'10"). Ortiz did something that I've never seen another fighter do - at least, not as smoothly or with as much success: Several times, Ortiz would lean forward slightly at the waist and drop his hands to about chest level as if daring the other fellow to hit him. Then, when the guy tried, Ortiz would lay some absolutely beautiful counters on him. Was that his regular modus operandi, or did he do it only in that one fight?

Watching that tape of him was a real pleasure. He was an artist in the ring.

raylawpc wrote:Hap, I've only seen two tapes of Ortiz in action. One a very long time ago; the other recently. In the one that I have, he is defending his title against a shorter opponent (whose name I can't recall - the guy looked like he was about 4'10"). Ortiz did something that I've never seen another fighter do - at least, not as smoothly or with as much success: Several times, Ortiz would lean forward slightly at the waist and drop his hands to about chest level as if daring the other fellow to hit him. Then, when the guy tried, Ortiz would lay some absolutely beautiful counters on him. Was that his regular modus operandi, or did he do it only in that one fight?

Watching that tape of him was a real pleasure. He was an artist in the ring.

That was Luis Castillo....

Thanks, Frank, I couldn't remember the name . . .

The Dr. says I have developed CRS, and they can't do anything for me at this point, so I'm going to have these lapses from time-to-time.

Tom:

The only other filmed fight of Manuel's that I have seen is his incedibly inept showing against Vic Toweel, where he lost the bantam title. And Frank is right. I think Manuel fought Castillo, his good friend, by the way, about three times. Luis was a good puncher who was billed in Mexico as "The Pocket Battleship".

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scartissue wrote:

Expug wrote:

kikibalt wrote:
Frank Bruno & "Laughing" Larry Frazier
December 4, 1985, Wembley, London

I may have mentioned this before.
Frank Bruno fought here in Chicago back in83.
He was training for the fight in the gym I was training at .
I will never forget what a polite , nice guy he was. I was banging the speed bag and he walked up and said, "excuse me mate, may I borrow your speed bag when you are finished?"
Of course I loaned it to him.
That same day, he went a few rounds sparring with James Tillis.
I didnt really know who Frank was . It was fairly early in his career.He got the better of Tillis in the sparring session,and a few years later he stopped "Quick" in a actual fight.
He fought a few days after I met him at the old Davinci Manor in Chicago.
He kod Mike Jamesson.
Barry McGuigan also fought on the card.

Brian, I think we did talk about this once - there's been so many subjects broached I can't remember them all - that was the "British are coming" card that would have been impossible to put on a scant one or two years later. Man, Lloyd Honeyghan, Barry McGuigan, Frank Bruno. Even Quick Tillis fought on the card as well as Jeff Sims, who one boxing magazine audaciously referred to once as 'the second coming of Sonny Liston'. It was a great card with personalities all over the place. I met Angelo Dundee, I met McGuigan and Barney Eastwood. I was like a kid in a candy store.

Scartissue

A great night of boxing.
I liked that old Davinci Manor.Its gone now.

Dongee wrote:Tom:

The only other filmed fight of Manuel's that I have seen is his incedibly inept showing against Vic Toweel, where he lost the bantam title. And Frank is right. I think Manuel fought Castillo, his good friend, by the way, about three times. Luis was a good puncher who was billed in Mexico as "The Pocket Battleship".

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Hap, do you recall whether that tactic of leaning in with this hands low to draw fire was something Ortiz typically did? I've never seen anyone do that with the same skill Ortiz used against Castillo.

Tom:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win.

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Tom:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win.

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Gus Dorazio vs Joe Louis
February 17, 1941, Convention Hall
Philadelphia

kikibalt wrote:
Gus Dorazio vs Joe Louis
February 17, 1941, Convention Hall
Philadelphia

Gus Dorazio,he was quite the hellion outside the ring.
It didnt take much for him to bounce a hook off the skull of some unfortunate.

Dongee wrote:Rick:

I've got to jump in here, hoping our guys will bear with us, because the question ;you asked about Jackie MCoy and Fabela rings a hell of a familiar bell with me.

As you know, Jackie and I were very close during my day. Pals, you might say, even when I left the game sand moved down south to the border town of Calexico. Jackie was a true friend who never stopped drving those long miles to visit with me.

I don't know why he never took a poke at me for kidding him about the fight with Chavez. It happened in a highly-anticipated semi-windup on the outdoor show when Enrique Bolanos stopped John Thomas for the Pacific Coast Lightweight Title. Jack Dempsey refereed the Chavez-McCoy bout which ended very suddenly and sensationally. The two hot prospects boxed on even terms for a spell when Chavez caught Jackie with a vicious right hand shot to the jaw, flooring him for the knockout.
I always thought it was a mistake to pit the two kids so early when they could have sold out an arena as headliners. I remember that Jackie frowned every time ww spoke of that fight.

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Hap . . . What a great card! John Thomas was one of my all-time favorite referees and a special man. I remember as a kid walking thru the Oympic Auditorium's Grand Ave. gate and just inside were dozens of classic photos hanging on the wall. One of the bigger portraits featured lightweight contender John Thomas, then a young man. He'd ref a few of my fights. I know that Enrique Bolanos was too much for Thomas, but I'd have loved to have seen the fight. McCoy vs. Chavez, what a great opener,. To top things off, my favorite heavyweight champ, Jack Dempsey, as the ref. Now when I find that time machine, I'm going back to that fight card first

-Rick

Tony Baltazar vs Robin Blake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLcuE-kQ6Cg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh2z-n4f1g0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hhHjZkndHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngempDdNDXA

Dongee wrote:Tom:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win.

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Yes, I agree with your statement about that "little maneuver." ("I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years.") It would take incredible timing to pull that off - especially a bantamweight like Ortiz, given the hand speed possessed by fellows in the lower weight classes. I was really pretty amazed when I saw Ortiz do it on the dvd, and more amazed when he did it again and again, lulling the opponent in and then throwing those beautiful counterpunches.

kikibalt wrote:

I have fond memories of Gil Cadilli from the Main Street Gym. He could be pretty blunt about things though. One day when I first started sparring, I can't remember with who, I was catching too many right hands. It was enough to get Cadilli's attention and when I was climbing out of the ring, Cadilli lit into Mel. He said to Mel "What's wrong with you? Why don't you teach him some defense?" I'm going by memory but it was pretty close to that..

As Rick can tell you, Mel would take it as a personal affront if another trainer even spoke to one of his fighters, much less interfere with his methods. Mel fired back with "Mind your own f**king business I know what I'm doing". They went back and forth for a few minutes until Gil just walked away. Mel was talking to himself for days.

Randy

Rick Farris wrote:

kikibalt wrote:

When I consider all the boxers from the post WW2 era that I'd like to have seen in action, the name Fabela Chavez is right at the top. Bolanos, Aragon, Ortiz and Fabela Chavez top my list. I have a lot of questions for Hap regarding Chavez, which I shall post in due course. Thru Hap Navarro, the legends of L.A.'s Golden Era come to life. The funny thing is, with the exception of Manuel Ortiz, I've met them all. I met Enrique Bolanos and was in his company several times in the early 70's thru George Parnassus, Art Aragon I would run into many times over the years thru both boxing and the film industry and I was introduced to Chavez several years before his death. Hap's posting takes us back in time, right into the offices of the Hollywood Legion Stadium and beyond.

This is no longer just a thread in an internet boxing forum . . . it's a time machine! Enjoy it guys, it's a true gift.

-Rick Farris

As far as I'm concerned Rick, This is Boxing 101. There is not a better place on the web, or anywhere else for that matter to learn about the history of boxing, West Coast or other wise. I remember once, Brian mentioned that he was making copies of every page, just in case. I think I'm going to do the same. The informal manner in which all these gems are related make them invaluable. Like a good discussion at a neighborhood bar. No one to interrupt us.

Randy

Dongee wrote:Rick:

I've got to jump in here, hoping our guys will bear with us, because the question ;you asked about Jackie MCoy and Fabela rings a hell of a familiar bell with me.

As you know, Jackie and I were very close during my day. Pals, you might say, even when I left the game sand moved down south to the border town of Calexico. Jackie was a true friend who never stopped drving those long miles to visit with me.

I don't know why he never took a poke at me for kidding him about the fight with Chavez. It happened in a highly-anticipated semi-windup on the outdoor show when Enrique Bolanos stopped John Thomas for the Pacific Coast Lightweight Title. Jack Dempsey refereed the Chavez-McCoy bout which ended very suddenly and sensationally. The two hot prospects boxed on even terms for a spell when Chavez caught Jackie with a vicious right hand shot to the jaw, flooring him for the knockout.
I always thought it was a mistake to pit the two kids so early when they could have sold out an arena as headliners. I remember that Jackie frowned every time ww spoke of that fight.

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Hap, If I haven't already said it, let me say it here. I really appreciate you posting on this site. I'm enjoying your "History Lessons", all of us are. Thank you!

Randy

Dongee wrote:Tom:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win.

hap navarro

Like infighting, feinting is becoming a lost art. A large part is because fighters are not developing the way they once did. Twelve fights or so and they're ready for a title shot. Thirteen fights and they're called "Uncrowned Champions". Everyone one wants a quick knockout and most are content to be headhunters. Maybe it's a generational thing, no patience.

Randy

Hey Hap, by any chance did you know mine and Rick's old trainer, Mel Epstein? Just curios.

Randy

AFTER THE FIGHTS


Across the boulevard from the Bull ring is the long row of taco stands that is a popular spot for people to stop and eat. Tijuana is known for tacos. When it's the Day Of The Taco in Mexico there are so many people crowding around those stands it's almost impossible to see them. The aroma of the manteca and the crackling of meat frying on the grills is something the memory never forgets. The bright bulbs strung across the front of the stands. Radishes,chiles,cilantro,and salsas of red and green in bowls adorn the stands. After the fights at the bull ring ,we always went to eat at the stands . Tacos Al Pastor with the meat on the spit shaved off into the small hot corn tortillas dipped in the hot manteca tasted wonderfull.
"Si amigo. Con todo."

Me and Pat were hungry after the card at the Bull Ring. We got lucky .We found a stand with two empty stools on the end. We piled the tacos on the white cardboard plates. The grease soaked through the wax paper onto the cardboard.The night air got cold and I was looking at the steam coming off from all the grills.
"Olivares had an easy time with that Jap," I remarked as my plate was being filled with tacos.
"They're not going to risk anything with him down here,"said Pat.
"They'll have a big fight with him later in the year in Los Angeles."
It seemed that everyone at the Bull Ring crossed the boulevard to eat tacos at the stands. As fast as the tacos were filled on the plates, they were emptied by the happy aficianados.

I was starting to fill my stomach. The cold beer in the brown bottles helped wash it down.
"Someone told me there are 7000 registered fighters in Mexico,"I said.
"How many in the U.S.?"
"Not even half that number."
Pat was starting to slow down too. We just drank beer.
"I don't think Mexico would have near that number of fighters if they didn't border the U.S.,"I said.
"Yeh,it would probably have as many fighters as Panama."
"The fighters know in Mexico if they do well,it's the big money in the U.S."
"Yeh,the Forum or maybe New York."
The beer was beginning to warm me up . I didn't feel the cold anymore.
"You're right. They didn't want to risk anything with Olivares tonight."
"Picking the Japanese guy was a coup. The crowd liked to see him get his ass kicked."
"Especially what Shibata did to Saldivar."
The crowd dwindled down. Some of the stands had no one in front of them. Me and Pat sat at the end of the stand. There were a lot of the empty brown bottles in front of us.
"Another way the U.S. impacts Mexico,"I said. My mind became very clear. I was sure of my statements.
"I don't follow."
"They fight well here,and then make the big money on the U.S. side."
"Yeh."
I looked along the long row of stands. Just me and Pat were left. The man making the tacos came over.
"Se cabo. We close."

I paid the man for the tacos and beer. I put my arm on Pat's shoulder. He looked up..
"Of those 7000,how many make the big money?"asked Pat.
"Hardly any. Only a few."
The man turned off the lights to the stand.
"Hey Pat,I know a place at the bottom of Revolution where the geek bites off the chicken's head."
"Now that's something I've got to see."

Randyman wrote:

kikibalt wrote:

I have fond memories of Gil Cadilli from the Main Street Gym. He could be pretty blunt about things though. One day when I first started sparring, I can't remember with who, I was catching too many right hands. It was enough to get Cadilli's attention and when I was climbing out of the ring, Cadilli lit into Mel. He said to Mel "What's wrong with you? Why don't you teach him some defense?" I'm going by memory but it was pretty close to that..

As Rick can tell you, Mel would take it as a personal affront if another trainer even spoke to one of his fighters, much less interfere with his methods. Mel fired back with "Mind your own f**king business I know what I'm doing". They went back and forth for a few minutes until Gil just walked away. Mel was talking to himself for days.

Randy

Great suff Randy.
There was a time when a trainer would get real salty if another trainer started sticking his nose in to a fighters buisness. I wonder if trainers are still protective of their fighters like that.Or have things changed in that way too.

Randy and Dagosd:
I honestly think boxing lore means nothing unless it is shared

Thanks for the kind words, Randy, and only once did I have a fighter box for Mel Epstein. I had been sent five young boxers from the Texas border area by a good friend. I was a llicensed matchmaker at the time and could not handle them myself so I turned them over to a respected manager/traner I trusted.

One of the kids was Ramon Tiscareno, who was signed by Mel for a 1952 bout against Sid Flaherty's Eddie Chavez at Butte, Montana. When the fighter and his new manager returned to L.A. they regaled me with stories about the most unruly fight mob they had ever seen in the mining town where boxing was ruled over by Mel Epstein. They had no complaints about Mel himself, but they said the men in the audience were rowdy as hell,

Aside to Dagosd2000:

I lived in San Diego for more than 30 years and on trips to Tijuana we always ate at one of two places; the La Mesa, for seafood, and a little dive downstairs on Revolucion called La Especial. That place had a huge platter with carne asada, beans, rice, guacamole plus fresh tortillasat the fanastic price of a buck (oro). We found the prices had changed the last time we ate there.

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kikibalt wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Hap, I've only seen two tapes of Ortiz in action. One a very long time ago; the other recently. In the one that I have, he is defending his title against a shorter opponent (whose name I can't recall - the guy looked like he was about 4'10"). Ortiz did something that I've never seen another fighter do - at least, not as smoothly or with as much success: Several times, Ortiz would lean forward slightly at the waist and drop his hands to about chest level as if daring the other fellow to hit him. Then, when the guy tried, Ortiz would lay some absolutely beautiful counters on him. Was that his regular modus operandi, or did he do it only in that one fight?

Watching that tape of him was a real pleasure. He was an artist in the ring.

That was Luis Castillo....

And I'm going to be watching Manuel Ortiz vs. Luis Castillo in about ten minutes. I consider it "prizefighting relief" after an overdose of contemporary ring "action". I guess I'm spoiled. I came up in L.A. when real fighters fought their hearts out for little money and defined the word "heart" for boxing fans. Today? NADA!

-Rick