BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

jayc wrote:Floyds main problem is the lack of a defining fight.
If you look at the following list of all time greats they all fought other champions who also belong on the top 100 fighters of all time. Floyd has not. He has to a degree cherry picked his opponents as he has moved up and i think the reason some fans dislike him is because in recent years he has seemed reluctant to take a risk. Which is effectively what it is when you face someone from the top echelon of your division.
For example:
Ali, Frazier and Foreman all gambled against each other.
Sugar Ray Robinson gambled against La Motta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer and Maxim.
Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran all risked it against each other.
In more modern times, fighters I respect have taken huge risks to prove they are greats:
Hopkins - Trinidad, Tarver, Pavlik, Calzaghe, RJJ, Johnson.
Calzaghe - Lacy (at the time), Kessler, Hopkins.
Mosley - ODLH, Wright, Margarito. Cotto, Forrest.
Barrera, Manny, Morales, JMM all took on the best they could in each other.

When has Floyd ever actively pursued another top fighter to cement his legacy? Why did he not fight Kostya Tzsyu? Why not fight Cotto at light welter either? Why no Mosley, Margarito or Williams so far at welter? If he wants people to recognize him as an all time great then he has to take the gamble and put himself in a competitive fight. The only real gauge we have so far is him sneaking to a points win against an old and running out of gas Oscar. Hardly a glowing performance for the pretty boy against the only other fighter he has fought who is anywhere near top class. The only two fights he has had against unbeaten 'dangermen' were Corrales and Hatton. Two of my favorite all time fighters but not even I would go as far as to say either were truly top, top class fighters. Floyd needs his defining fights. Hopefully Manny, Mosley or Cotto can provide them.

I don't really think you can keep a straight face and say Calzaghe has a better legacy than Floyd.

Deserter wrote:
Stu, you say for whatever reason yet everyone, including you, knows the reason - Leonard had a detached retina that forced his retirement in 82. The fact he came back to beat Hagler was astonishing, but doesn't change the fact that he was nothing like the boxer he was prior to that injury. If you ignore the abortive Kevin Howard return he didn't fight for nearly five years.
Pre-injury he didn't miss out on a single key fight - all those namechecks you make are post that particular period. Curry, for example, only claimed a portion of the world title for the first time AFTER Leonard's enforced retirement and had lost to Honeyghan by the time Leonard re-emerged to fight Hagler, so I really don't understand your point?

jayc wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

jayc wrote:Floyds main problem is the lack of a defining fight.
If you look at the following list of all time greats they all fought other champions who also belong on the top 100 fighters of all time. Floyd has not. He has to a degree cherry picked his opponents as he has moved up and i think the reason some fans dislike him is because in recent years he has seemed reluctant to take a risk. Which is effectively what it is when you face someone from the top echelon of your division.
For example:
Ali, Frazier and Foreman all gambled against each other.
Sugar Ray Robinson gambled against La Motta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer and Maxim.
Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran all risked it against each other.
In more modern times, fighters I respect have taken huge risks to prove they are greats:
Hopkins - Trinidad, Tarver, Pavlik, Calzaghe, RJJ, Johnson.
Calzaghe - Lacy (at the time), Kessler, Hopkins.
Mosley - ODLH, Wright, Margarito. Cotto, Forrest.
Barrera, Manny, Morales, JMM all took on the best they could in each other.

When has Floyd ever actively pursued another top fighter to cement his legacy? Why did he not fight Kostya Tzsyu? Why not fight Cotto at light welter either? Why no Mosley, Margarito or Williams so far at welter? If he wants people to recognize him as an all time great then he has to take the gamble and put himself in a competitive fight. The only real gauge we have so far is him sneaking to a points win against an old and running out of gas Oscar. Hardly a glowing performance for the pretty boy against the only other fighter he has fought who is anywhere near top class. The only two fights he has had against unbeaten 'dangermen' were Corrales and Hatton. Two of my favorite all time fighters but not even I would go as far as to say either were truly top, top class fighters. Floyd needs his defining fights. Hopefully Manny, Mosley or Cotto can provide them.

I don't really think you can keep a straight face and say Calzaghe has a better legacy than Floyd.

I can and I will, he will also do better at strictly come dancing haha..............i'm actually not saying it's better, just that Calzaghe has actually taken more risks than Floyd so in the context of his division deserves more credit. Joe has only one or two names missing from his ledger in Johnson or Ottke. Floyd has numerous names missing from his at welter/light-welter. He may yet face them and I will respect him more if he does.

stujones wrote:

Deserter wrote:
Stu, you say for whatever reason yet everyone, including you, knows the reason - Leonard had a detached retina that forced his retirement in 82. The fact he came back to beat Hagler was astonishing, but doesn't change the fact that he was nothing like the boxer he was prior to that injury. If you ignore the abortive Kevin Howard return he didn't fight for nearly five years.
Pre-injury he didn't miss out on a single key fight - all those namechecks you make are post that particular period. Curry, for example, only claimed a portion of the world title for the first time AFTER Leonard's enforced retirement and had lost to Honeyghan by the time Leonard re-emerged to fight Hagler, so I really don't understand your point?

Deserter - your wrong on Leonard enforced retirment. I've had this debate COUNTLESS times on another forum (and I propose, and always do that Leonard is #1 GOAT). However, that eye DIDN'T enforce his retirement.

In 1982 - he announced his retirment at a charity event he set up... inviting and humilating Hagler in the process. Hagler turned up thinking Leonard was stating he would be moving up. He announced his retirement. HOWEVER, he said his eye had completely recovered at this same and was cleared to fight he didn't WANT to box anymore.

He announced his return in 1983, CALLED out Curry, McCory, Pryor etc. He fought Howard, re retired and didn't fight for 3 years. All this cause of the eye problem????? Maybe the charlie problem he was going through had something to do with it.

Leonard has never claimed boxing authrorities suspended him. He had a detached retina, yes - and I think he had 2 successfull operations during these breaks and within weeks of each operation was medically cleared to fight. Floyd Mayweather has got mangled hands, perhaps he needed a break also... and Manny Pacquiao was a Super Feather and not on the radar when Floyd fought Ricky.

ArtOfWar wrote:Mayweather is not even in the top ten all-time. The key factor for me is whether or not he remains undefeated for the rest of his career. If he does his fans will always argue about his greatness. If he loses though all this greatest of all-time talk will go out the window and we'll get a more realistic view of his all-time status, because the aura of invincibility will be gone.

p.s Shitman, you've lost it mate. Bigging up Floyd will not make the arse kicking he gave Hatton look any better for fatboy.

jayc wrote:I can and I will, he will also do better at strictly come dancing haha..............i'm actually not saying it's better, just that Calzaghe has actually taken more risks than Floyd so in the context of his division deserves more credit. Joe has only one or two names missing from his ledger in Johnson or Ottke. Floyd has numerous names missing from his at welter/light-welter. He may yet face them and I will respect him more if he does.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Charlie problem - first time I've heard of Leonard's name linked with drugs, have I missed something?

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Charlie problem - first time I've heard of Leonard's name linked with drugs, have I missed something?

banjo wrote:I thought it was about winning not looking good.

stujones wrote:

Deserter wrote:
Stu, you say for whatever reason yet everyone, including you, knows the reason - Leonard had a detached retina that forced his retirement in 82. The fact he came back to beat Hagler was astonishing, but doesn't change the fact that he was nothing like the boxer he was prior to that injury. If you ignore the abortive Kevin Howard return he didn't fight for nearly five years.
Pre-injury he didn't miss out on a single key fight - all those namechecks you make are post that particular period. Curry, for example, only claimed a portion of the world title for the first time AFTER Leonard's enforced retirement and had lost to Honeyghan by the time Leonard re-emerged to fight Hagler, so I really don't understand your point?

Deserter - your wrong on Leonard enforced retirment. I've had this debate COUNTLESS times on another forum (and I propose, and always do that Leonard is #1 GOAT). However, that eye DIDN'T enforce his retirement.

In 1982 - he announced his retirment at a charity event he set up... inviting and humilating Hagler in the process. Hagler turned up thinking Leonard was stating he would be moving up. He announced his retirement. HOWEVER, he said his eye had completely recovered at this same and was cleared to fight he didn't WANT to box anymore.

He announced his return in 1983, CALLED out Curry, McCory, Pryor etc. He fought Howard, re retired and didn't fight for 3 years. All this cause of the eye problem????? Maybe the charlie problem he was going through had something to do with it.

Leonard has never claimed boxing authrorities suspended him. He had a detached retina, yes - and I think he had 2 successfull operations during these breaks and within weeks of each operation was medically cleared to fight. Floyd Mayweather has got mangled hands, perhaps he needed a break also... and Manny Pacquiao was a Super Feather and not on the radar when Floyd fought Ricky.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:mayweather's b level of opponents are better than joe's.

MightyWarrior wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Charlie problem - first time I've heard of Leonard's name linked with drugs, have I missed something?

Yep he dabbled for awhile in his retirement years, apparently, I think his marrage falling apart had something to do with it.

The big disadvantage Floyd has in this debate comparing him to the ATG, is that he hasn't finished his career yet - we don't have the whole picture yet.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:mayweather's b level of opponents are better than joe's.

- What, you got to rely on slating a retired fighter to feather your lad's jock?

Last I checked, Joe retired 46-0. Mr. Money had to come out of retirement just to make 40-0. Joe has beat more and better fighters in the Ring rankings.

Imagine Joe could come out of retirement tomorrow and beat Mosley at 170 lbs pretty easily, but his fans aren't nearly so deluded as to accept the nonsense Mr. Money fans lap up.

Can someone wake me up when Mr. Money fights a ranked welter, preferably prime, but I could go with Mosley if he needs the age advantage. What, the last ranked welter he beat was 40 yr old Baldo Sasquatch some 4 yrs ago. Wow!!!

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

hitman_hatton1 wrote:mayweather's b level of opponents are better than joe's.

- What, you got to rely on slating a retired fighter to feather your lad's jock?

Last I checked, Joe retired 46-0. Mr. Money had to come out of retirement just to make 40-0. Joe has beat more and better fighters in the Ring rankings.

Imagine Joe could come out of retirement tomorrow and beat Mosley at 170 lbs pretty easily, but his fans aren't nearly so deluded as to accept the nonsense Mr. Money fans lap up.

Can someone wake me up when Mr. Money fights a ranked welter, preferably prime, but I could go with Mosley if he needs the age advantage. What, the last ranked welter he beat was 40 yr old Baldo Sasquatch some 4 yrs ago. Wow!!!

Autobarn wrote:I think he means Joe vs Mosley, as a comparison to Floyd v Marquez. Marquez was way up in weight. But that does seem very very far up for Mosley.

Like I say, I wonder if ppl would be asking "is JM Marquez the best ever?", if he'd beaten smaller guys Israel Vazquez, Vic Darchinyan, Celestino Caballero without even getting stoppages.

Deserter wrote:
Stu, I've seen direct quotes from Leonard himself claiming it was the eye problem that led to his retirement, but rather than dwelling on that, even if we accept the view that the operations had 'cured' the detached retina, it doesn't change the essence of what I'm saying, which is that Leonard was not an active fighter when the likes of Curry were at their peak so can hardly be accused of avoiding them in the same way that Floyd has avoided Cotto, Margarito, Williams etc and instead opted to face the likes of Baldomir and Hatton.
I'll cut him slack on Marquez as he has been out of the ring, and he's still got time to make amends regarding the others, but I would genuinely be astonished if he signed to fight Williams at light-middle, for example. Whereas I've got no such doubt regarding Leonard.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Autobarn wrote:I think he means Joe vs Mosley, as a comparison to Floyd v Marquez. Marquez was way up in weight. But that does seem very very far up for Mosley.

Like I say, I wonder if ppl would be asking "is JM Marquez the best ever?", if he'd beaten smaller guys Israel Vazquez, Vic Darchinyan, Celestino Caballero without even getting stoppages.

I'm afraid Jimmy McD is more towards emoting rather than thinking.

Yes, Mosley is the old former jrmid champ who won the WBA jr mid title eliminator only 3 yrs ago in a Vargas series that he never exercised. He moved back down to welt where the money was. No longer any big fights at welt because nobody wants to fight him. Marg suspended, Cotto has Manny, Williams Pavlik, and Mr. Money has his $$$$$$$.

Joe could have Mosley for lunch and then call out Mr. Money for desert in a perfect faerytaile ending. All's well that ends well in faeryland fancies............ 8)

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Well I never - there's a shock, he always seemed so sqeaky clean, but retirement does funny things to a fighter.

I'm sure Leonard was a poster boy for the FBI's 'Winners don't use drugs campaign.'

stujones wrote:opted INSTEAD to face the likes of Baldomir.... I'm sorry, but Baldomir was the lineal champion. Why does he get stick for this fight. He got stick for fighting Judah and not Baldomir (deservedly) but when he fought Baldomir, he still gets stick.

Margarito had beaten NO-ONE of note at that stage, except a decent but limited Antonio Diaz (in a massive struggle) sure he "looked" a monster and a beast - but I'm sorry, had he fought Margarito ahead of Baldomir I would have been giving him stick. Baldomir, whether people like it or not, had more of a claim of being the "man" of the devision than Margarito.

Cotto was as proven at 147 at that stage, 21 months ago, as Hatton was. A belt holder, thats all. NOW - yes, Margarito through his win over Cotto, and Cotto through his wins over Judah and Mosley are proven.

Now - this comment is going to get some ridicule I know. People are saying at best "cut him some slack for fighting Marquez". A Lightweight P4P #2 moving up to Welter to fight Mayweather, with Mayweather on a 21 month break. Nobody disses Leonard for losing to a Lightweight, moving to Welter. Now, I know Marquez and Duran are not in the same league in their natural weights.... and Duran as a Lightweight should be up there in any GOAT debates. Duran as a Welter and above - nope. But Floyd gets condemmed for fighting one of the finest fighters of his generation cause he is a bit smaller, Leonard gets applauded for it.