BoxRec

the giant did sometimes look huge indeed hugging onto 5'7 opponents and middleweights

I'm almost positive that Nat Fleischer claimed to have measures Johnson at 6'0.25"

I read a report of that fight, which said it was a brutal affair. Plenty of blood from Ketchel's mouth and ringsiders were gasping at the said brutality.

goose 5 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2023, 21:00 I'm almost positive that Nat Fleischer claimed to have measures Johnson at 6'0.25"

For the Jeffries fight Johnson was measured at 6' 1-2" tall.

Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Oct 2020, 14:58

I know some people love this era and history but for me the skill sets are not awe aspiring like some people rave about. I just don’t see it. I don’t think eras should be compared so for their time they were good but HWs got better. Ketchel was a MW and looked tiny compared to Johnson. Can you imagine if a small 160-170 fighter fought the number one HW champ today, people would laugh.

Obviously, Ketchel was way smaller than Johnson and doesn't do anything as far as how they should be rated. Johnson was certainly very skilled. One thing to look at is how he (and others) would parry their opponents punches, this eventually almost became a lost art. You also have to take into consideration that Johnson was carrying him for a while. Lastly, you also have to take into consideration the technology regarding the footage.

I wouldn't say heavyweights today are better. They're much larger that's for sure. Most are slower by comparison. They fight much much less frequently than most of the fighters from even thirty years ago. If they fight twice in one year it's considered remarkable. As is often pointed out athletes who are less than six foot three and 230 pounds have easier pursuits today than getting punched in the face in the prize ring.

Stanley Ketchel was considered a terror in his day and it was this reputation alone that justified his taking on Jack Johnson. Few if any experts thought he had any chance with Johnson, so the "knockdown" came as a shock while the subsequent knockout proved Johnson's superiority.

"...Round 12...Ketchel, suddenly rushing in, sent his right for the jaw. It struck the champion on the arm and the big negro fell flat on his back and seemed to have injured himself. Ketchel rushed right at him, but the tricky champion was waiting for him. He swung a hard right to the jaw, and quick as a flash shot a left to the body. As Ketchel fell backward Johnson sent in another right to the face and the white man went to the canvas as if shot..." --The Los Angeles Herald.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 10:34 Obviously, Ketchel was way smaller than Johnson and doesn't do anything as far as how they should be rated. Johnson was certainly very skilled. One thing to look at is how he (and others) would parry their opponents punches, this eventually almost became a lost art. You also have to take into consideration that Johnson was carrying him for a while. Lastly, you also have to take into consideration the technology regarding the footage.

So let's call it what it was, a mismatch in size and weight and also fixed. I'm not saying Johnson wasn't skilled but they just fought different in that era, it's almost like watching two guys fencing and then clinching with their hands held low parrying single shots.

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 08:32

Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Oct 2020, 14:58

I know some people love this era and history but for me the skill sets are not awe aspiring like some people rave about. I just don’t see it. I don’t think eras should be compared so for their time they were good but HWs got better. Ketchel was a MW and looked tiny compared to Johnson. Can you imagine if a small 160-170 fighter fought the number one HW champ today, people would laugh.

no kidding. and jack could barely go 10 seconds without getting in a hug. jab.........................jab.........................hug. sometimes hugging without even punching first. add in the occasional right hand somewhere. eventually ko the smaller guy. a spitting image of wlad klit years later

imagine if wlad fought 5'7 mws and smws though lol. vs curtis stevens or brian castano or something

anyone know what Ketchels weight was in his two previous fights and the two fights afterwards ?
I bet Ketchel was closer to 160 lbs looks to me.

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 13:29

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 10:34 Obviously, Ketchel was way smaller than Johnson and doesn't do anything as far as how they should be rated. Johnson was certainly very skilled. One thing to look at is how he (and others) would parry their opponents punches, this eventually almost became a lost art. You also have to take into consideration that Johnson was carrying him for a while. Lastly, you also have to take into consideration the technology regarding the footage.

So let's call it what it was, a mismatch in size and weight and also fixed. I'm not saying Johnson wasn't skilled but they just fought different in that era, it's almost like watching two guys fencing and then clinching with their hands held low parrying single shots.

Pretty much what I and others have called it. As for holding your hands low, if you are good enough (most aren't) you should hold your hands low. i.e Ali, Holmes, Jones etc. Makes it easier to let go.
This particular fight doesn't mean a whole lot. You have to watch Ketchel against a middleweight and Johnson against someone bigger.
As for clinching, that's about all you get now, clinching and/or staring.

What have we had in the hw division the last couple of decades? The 12-round stare down with Fury vs Klitschko. The first Fury-Wilder fight where round after round nothing happened (except a couple of times when Wilder let his hands go and decked Fury) and then when the bell rang ending each round, Fury holding up his hands as if he did something special?
Do you really think young fans in 2050 are going to back at the last 20 years and watch any of these fights more than once?

stylistically wlad and jack were strikingly similar

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 19:25

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 13:29

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 10:34 Obviously, Ketchel was way smaller than Johnson and doesn't do anything as far as how they should be rated. Johnson was certainly very skilled. One thing to look at is how he (and others) would parry their opponents punches, this eventually almost became a lost art. You also have to take into consideration that Johnson was carrying him for a while. Lastly, you also have to take into consideration the technology regarding the footage.

So let's call it what it was, a mismatch in size and weight and also fixed. I'm not saying Johnson wasn't skilled but they just fought different in that era, it's almost like watching two guys fencing and then clinching with their hands held low parrying single shots.

Pretty much what I and others have called it. As for holding your hands low, if you are good enough (most aren't) you should hold your hands low. i.e Ali, Holmes, Jones etc. Makes it easier to let go.
This particular fight doesn't mean a whole lot. You have to watch Ketchel against a middleweight and Johnson against someone bigger.
As for clinching, that's about all you get now, clinching and/or staring.

What have we had in the hw division the last couple of decades? The 12-round stare down with Fury vs Klitschko. The first Fury-Wilder fight where round after round nothing happened (except a couple of times when Wilder let his hands go and decked Fury) and then when the bell rang ending each round, Fury holding up his hands as if he did something special?
Do you really think young fans in 2050 are going to back at the last 20 years and watch any of these fights more than once?

I don’t agree holding your hands near your waist makes it easier to punch. That’s just how lots of fighters fought in that era, as I said before it was almost like human fencing.

Boxing is in a steady decline and I can’t see that changing. Too much money, too many belts, too much emphasis on unbeaten records and more awareness of the dangers of head trauma are making it more of a niche sport. Add to that it potentially being dropped from the Olympics and increased PED use it doesn’t bode well for the sport unfortunately.

All fighters have good and bad fights. Fury isn’t an all action type of fighter. The Wilder vs Fury triology was entertaining, I’d bet most people would rewatch them than watch Johnson fight MWs. Fury has been in dull fights but every fighter has including Ali who most think people was the greatest and most entertaining HW in history.

For the most part, boxers do what their trainer tells them and find a style that works. In his prime, Johnson was in supreme shape, and if he was born in 1990, his style would have been different.

If you pop Chris Eubank Jnr (BoxRec's #1) in a time machine back to then, he would be facing an incredibly dirty fighter with a fierce punch, who could stand over him when he got knocked down. Fighting with the afternoon sun in his eyes, no protectors, fouls mainly ignored by the ref, Eubank could look forward to elbows, low blows, punches on the break and much more, I don't see that match up as a bridge too far for Stanley.

I'm convinced it was all those live boxing shows on TV in America during the early 1950's
that fighters started to 'pick up the pace" in each round i.e for commercials.

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Oct 2023, 00:25

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 19:25

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 13:29

So let's call it what it was, a mismatch in size and weight and also fixed. I'm not saying Johnson wasn't skilled but they just fought different in that era, it's almost like watching two guys fencing and then clinching with their hands held low parrying single shots.

Pretty much what I and others have called it. As for holding your hands low, if you are good enough (most aren't) you should hold your hands low. i.e Ali, Holmes, Jones etc. Makes it easier to let go.
This particular fight doesn't mean a whole lot. You have to watch Ketchel against a middleweight and Johnson against someone bigger.
As for clinching, that's about all you get now, clinching and/or staring.

What have we had in the hw division the last couple of decades? The 12-round stare down with Fury vs Klitschko. The first Fury-Wilder fight where round after round nothing happened (except a couple of times when Wilder let his hands go and decked Fury) and then when the bell rang ending each round, Fury holding up his hands as if he did something special?
Do you really think young fans in 2050 are going to back at the last 20 years and watch any of these fights more than once?

I don’t agree holding your hands near your waist makes it easier to punch. That’s just how lots of fighters fought in that era, as I said before it was almost like human fencing.

Boxing is in a steady decline and I can’t see that changing. Too much money, too many belts, too much emphasis on unbeaten records and more awareness of the dangers of head trauma are making it more of a niche sport. Add to that it potentially being dropped from the Olympics and increased PED use it doesn’t bode well for the sport unfortunately.

All fighters have good and bad fights. Fury isn’t an all action type of fighter. The Wilder vs Fury triology was entertaining, I’d bet most people would rewatch them than watch Johnson fight MWs. Fury has been in dull fights but every fighter has including Ali who most think people was the greatest and most entertaining HW in history.

Agree with some of what you said and disagree with parts.
Fighters fought with hands held low long after Jack Johnson. Ali, Holmes, and Roy Jones to name a few. Most fighters don't have the reflexes to get away with it. However, if you can, you should.

Wilder-Fury entertaining? The first fight, Fury did next to nothing the entire fight. Wilder didn't throw nearly enough big punches, though when he did, he scored a couple of knockdowns. Take out those two knockdowns and there is absolutely nothing memorable about that fight. wilder was a complete no show in the 2nd fight. 3rd fight had a few interesting moments but nothing that interesting. If these fights were before our time, (say 1960s or prior) nobody would be talking about them at all.
Agree that nobody (including Ali) was in an exciting fight every time. However, he and other greats were in a lot of them.
Certainly, agree that the sport has declined over the last 20 years or so; particularly the hw division.

Brutu wrote: ↑10 May 2010, 10:49

Senya13 wrote:

Brutu wrote:Its been well documented in other sources

Primary sources?

What are the Primary Sources?
What were the primary sources that said that Stanley Ketchel had agreed before the fight not to try and knock Jack Johnson out if Johnson agreed to take it easy on him and go the distance for the moving pictures?
Did you see Ketchel's face?
thats taking it"easy"on him?

Did Kecthel agree to take a beating?

Did Johnson agree to having a visible lump on his face?

The press reports that Johnson was still dazed after the KO,

This was a fight. As they say dead me tell no tales. The stories can up after Ketchel's death.

Controversial wrote: ↑19 Oct 2023, 08:32

Caractacus wrote: ↑16 Oct 2020, 14:58

I know some people love this era and history but for me the skill sets are not awe aspiring like some people rave about. I just don’t see it. I don’t think eras should be compared so for their time they were good but HWs got better. Ketchel was a MW and looked tiny compared to Johnson. Can you imagine if a small 160-170 fighter fought the number one HW champ today, people would laugh.

Those were time times. Not so well known is Johnson also had a news draw with Jack O'brien ( 160 Pounds ) after he won the heavyweight crown vs. Tiny Tommy Burns who was 168 pounds, and was Ko'd by Joe Choynski who fought at 170 pounds before then.

Johnson was a good copy for the news of the times. However, can anyone name a heavyweight champion who struggled this much vs. men he had 30-40 pounds on? You don't need a film to come to that conclusion that he was not very good by today's standards.

He was not struggling. He was in complete command of the fight. And yes there are examples of hws struggling with lighter fighters. Fury and Joshua for starters.

He took the fight for the money. If he scored a first round knockout, there would, no one would watch the fight in theatres. He wasn't going get that kind of money defending the title against the other top black heavyweights.

He clearly was carrying Ketchel;
Round 2 - Johnson knocked Ketchel down and had him hurt. Did not follow up at all.
Round 8 -Again, had Ketchel hurt, again did not follow up at all.
Round 10 - Hurt Ketchel, and Ketchel started going down. Johnson actually held him up from going down!

This is pretty obvious.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 13:12 He was not struggling. He was in complete command of the fight. And yes there are examples of hws struggling with lighter fighters. Fury and Joshua for starters.

He took the fight for the money. If he scored a first round knockout, there would, no one would watch the fight in theatres. He wasn't going get that kind of money defending the title against the other top black heavyweights.

He clearly was carrying Ketchel;
Round 2 - Johnson knocked Ketchel down and had him hurt. Did not follow up at all.
Round 8 -Again, had Ketchel hurt, again did not follow up at all.
Round 10 - Hurt Ketchel, and Ketchel started going down. Johnson actually held him up from going down!

This is pretty obvious.

Joshua never struggled or clinched the daylights out of middle weights. Neither did Fury.

What was the purse of the Ketchel fight?

Johnson did the same thing vs. the super middleweight Tommy Burns. He hit and held him up. Was that fight fixed in your opinion too.

Johnson never struggled with a middleweight either.
Don't know exactly how much he made for the Ketchel fight. It was a huge fight though. There was a lot of build up and a good crowd. You don't seem to get the Movies part of it. A fighter would get a certain % of the $ made from box office showings of the fight. I think Johnson got 20% for this fight. If he stops Ketchel in the first round, nobody is going to want to see it.
This was one of the biggest paydays of Johnson's career. He couldn't make near that much against say Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette.
I don't think the Burns fight was rigged per se. Johnson was not a guy who went for a quick KO regardless of who he fought. He was in control of that fight and didn't "struggle" in that either.

You can't look at the way you look at things in modern times. Johnson was fighting professionally for 11 years before getting a title shot. He was not able to make money at all until he was the champion. He wisely decided to cash in. He wasn't thinking about what people would think more than 100 years later.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 18:46 Johnson never struggled with a middleweight either.
Don't know exactly how much he made for the Ketchel fight. It was a huge fight though. There was a lot of build up and a good crowd. You don't seem to get the Movies part of it. A fighter would get a certain % of the $ made from box office showings of the fight. I think Johnson got 20% for this fight. If he stops Ketchel in the first round, nobody is going to want to see it.
This was one of the biggest paydays of Johnson's career. He couldn't make near that much against say Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette.
I don't think the Burns fight was rigged per se. Johnson was not a guy who went for a quick KO regardless of who he fought. He was in control of that fight and didn't "struggle" in that either.

You can't look at the way you look at things in modern times. Johnson was fighting professionally for 11 years before getting a title shot. He was not able to make money at all until he was the champion. He wisely decided to cash in. He wasn't thinking about what people would think more than 100 years later.

Johnson did like to punish some of his opponents and carry them, Jeffries being an example. I did read once that Johnson and Ketchel were on good terms and after the fight, Jack lost a lot of money to Stanley, playing dice or cards, I can't remember which.

Caractacus wrote: ↑01 Jun 2015, 18:26 As refered to another post.
watch the fight film again
this time frame by frame,
Johnson appears to have hit Ketchel in the mouth with his elbow.
which knocked out his gum shield and loosened his teeth
so that the next punch that Johnson actually landed,Ketchels teeth became imbedded in Jack Johnson's glove.
I think Jack Johnson may have gone down on purpose,
so that he could land a really hard and vicious punch on him,
without people being sorry for Ketchel.

GOR bLIMEY ! i THINK YOU MAY CORRECT (?) SIR !