BoxRec

SamWise72 wrote:

polecateddy wrote:What question? Qawi at his best was better than Rocky. Course he was!

The question was, if a 5'5 light heavy can compete with the big version of George Foreman, why can't a 5'11 natural cruiser hold his own against bigger fighters? But enough. You're trolling. You'll happily dismiss any fighter we name from the last 30 years as better than Marciano as if it were a foregone conclusion.

If you read backwards you'll see I have held the opinion that the best cruisers would have beaten Rocky a very long time. That's why I wrote to Boxing News 13 yrs ago ...before trolling was invented! Lol

polecateddy wrote:
I can only pray that at some point soon someone invents a computer program that can calculate speed and power, and put all this poo to bed. I would wager that Marciano would not be able to keep up with either Huck or Froch in training. As there is no data for old school boxers, I dont know how I'm going to prove that strength, stamina and speed in the average pro today is markedly superior to Rocky's era.

This is where I have to get off the bus. Marciano was an incredibly disciplined trainer... Now, for argument's sake, let's say you're right. He couldn't keep up. Well within 2 weeks of the new regime Marciano would be training lie a demon with all the new PEDs and equipment.

It's sort of a pointless position to take, at least to me.

Yeah, Harry Greb wouldn't know how to use a cell phone...until someone showed him how...

Ezzard wrote:

polecateddy wrote:
I can only pray that at some point soon someone invents a computer program that can calculate speed and power, and put all this poo to bed. I would wager that Marciano would not be able to keep up with either Huck or Froch in training. As there is no data for old school boxers, I dont know how I'm going to prove that strength, stamina and speed in the average pro today is markedly superior to Rocky's era.

This is where I have to get off the bus. Marciano was an incredibly disciplined trainer... Now, for argument's sake, let's say you're right. He couldn't keep up. Well within 2 weeks of the new regime Marciano would be training lie a demon with all the new PEDs and equipment.

It's sort of a pointless position to take, at least to me.

Yeah, Harry Greb wouldn't know how to use a cell phone...until someone showed him how...

That's not the argument. Not with PEDs and modern high protein and resistance training techniques. They have to be as they were then. And I'm not buying Rocky's world domination!

Yep, I'm done with this nonsense. Anyone who doesn't think Marciano was a good trainer, or that his stamina was exceptional doesn't understand a lot about boxing, and probably hasn't watched many of his fights. If he did nothing else, he got stronger as the fight went on, even in very tough ones. Fighters who can do that are few and far between, and Johnny Nelson and Carl Thompson, much as I love them, weren't amongst them.

And if Floyd went back to 1930. Without his science. His equipment. The ability to promote his own shows. Smaller gloves. 15 rounds. And no injections in his hands. He’s unlikely to be the same force.

The Third Man is a better film than Avatar…despite it being in black and white, with mono sound and no special effects. If it was remade tomorrow it would be in colour.

Polecat, enjoy the debate I’ll continue to read for the fun of it, but this steak is overdone.

Yeah it's getting pretty circular. No good rubbing up against closed minds. For what it's worth I agree about The Third Man. Great film! But that's art, not sport.

polecateddy wrote: And I'm not buying Rocky's world domination!

Nobody is claiming it. What I've seen are claims that Rocky would give any cruiser in history a war, but might lose a couple, and would be a handful for most heavyweights, but would lose to the best of them. Maybe you're arguing with fictional people who are claiming something different?

polecateddy wrote:
That's not the argument. Not with PEDs and modern high protein and resistance training techniques. They have to be as they were then. And I'm not buying Rocky's world domination!

The basics of training haven't changed a great deal, running, cardio work, sparring, bag work, skipping, pads etc..., Rocky fought hard fights over 15 rounds so his fitness cannot be called into doubt, there a plenty of modern fighters you can't say that about including the 80s when fighters like Tubbs and Witherspoon were sporting rolls of fat around their stomachs. Training only takes you so far. The Klitsckos are in good shape, plenty of heavies are carrying excess weight so not sure how modern training methods have benefitted them.

Controversial wrote: plenty of heavies are carrying excess weight so not sure how modern training methods have benefitted them.

Witchcraft.

Chippo wrote:

polecateddy wrote:Hey look, I'm simply saying that Carl Thompson can do EVERYTHING Marciano could do, only better. My theory is that any boxer from that era would do terribly today. A puncher back then would be basically a non-puncher. Modern training techniques and nutrition are not to be sniffed at - they have radically changed the modern athlete!

"Modern training techniques" is always an interesting one when this debate comes up.

Can you list the exact differences in training that you refer to and demonstrate how they make modern fighters better?

Especially in a sport like boxing which has historically not liked changes to training regimes different from the champions of the past.

Here's one - interval training.

LOL, haven't you done enough trolling? You can't possibly believe this shit.

polecateddy wrote:Here's one - interval training.

Ump. Wrong. Try again next time. There is film of fighters doing 'interval training' circa 1905.

Also, no resistance training? Weight pulleys were actually used much more often 50+ years ago; that's the best boxing-related resistance training you can do.

I made the mistake of revisiting this thread and see the trolling and absurd claims have continued . . .

Training was rudimentary then, as was sports nutrition. If you think sports training hasn't radically improved in the last 70 yrs. you must be insane!

polecateddy wrote:Training was rudimentary then, as was sports nutrition. If you think sports training hasn't radically improved in the last 70 yrs. you must be insane!

Sports training has changed a lot but boxing not anywhere near the amount other sports have for example compare most MMA fighters S&C training to most boxers S&C and there is a huge difference as far as trying and doing newer training methods.

p4p1 wrote:

polecateddy wrote:Training was rudimentary then, as was sports nutrition. If you think sports training hasn't radically improved in the last 70 yrs. you must be insane!

Sports training has changed a lot but boxing not anywhere near the amount other sports have for example compare most MMA fighters S&C training to most boxers S&C and there is a huge difference as far as trying and doing newer training methods.

But to be fair do you have the first clue what fighters on the cutting edge, like the Klitschkos, Froch (who is very modern in his approach), Ward, etc are doing in training?

I was pondering this just before, and make the following factual points;

1) Marciano grew up through WW2 and the post war years which would have greatly impacted his healthy diet. People had a far more limited idea of good nutrition and didn't even know that smoking stains your fingers.
2) Top fighters today usually employ nutritionalists, and its no stretch to suggest nutritionally fighters today have a diet which is healthier, more balanced and capable of assisting muscle growth and recovery in a far more improved way to Rocky's day. Life expectancy is far higher now, and that has something to do with this ...it's not simply that Tommy Morrison discovered a cure for AIDS.
3) Today fighters use sports supplements from mail order companies or Ebay.
4) Many top fighters also do or have employed illegal PED's, but not Evander Holyfield because of the ear and God.
5) Many modern training principles were neither discovered, or properly used or understood in Rocky's day. People couldn't even run under 4 minutes for the mile, which most people can do today.
6) I could go on...

Apologies for re-emerging...

http://boxingwriter.co.uk/2008/09/12/re ... lb-killer/

And again...

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... t=resizing

Ezzard wrote:And again...

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... t=resizing

So according to this logic, not only was Marciano likely to beat all cruiserweight champions, and most heavyweight champions AS HE WAS THEN. If additionally he was born and trained in present times he would literally be knocking out both K brothers on the same night, such was his immense improvement. Or is in fact the logic that the 1950's version wouldn't do very well today, but a modern version might? Yes, latter version I think!

As for modern training Rocky didn't do I enclose a Carl Froch interview;

http://au.askmen.com/sports/bodybuildin ... ealth.html

I go back to this idea of interval training. Speed endurance not through hitting a bag for hours or running 6 miles every single day, or whatever Rocky did. This concept of cross-training, interval training and building true speed endurance into the muscles, not just blanket strength and stamina. Yes, Carl Froch can do things in training Rocky never would or could.

polecateddy wrote:As for modern training Rocky didn't do I enclose a Carl Froch interview;

http://au.askmen.com/sports/bodybuildin ... ealth.html

I go back to this idea of interval training. Speed endurance not through hitting a bag for hours or running 6 miles every single day, or whatever Rocky did. This concept of cross-training, interval training and building true speed endurance into the muscles, not just blanket strength and stamina. Yes, Carl Froch can do things in training Rocky never would or could.

Could Chageav, Chisora or any heavyweight for that matter follow the same workout routine as a super middleweight? Do Ward or Kessler follow the same routine as Froch, probably not, yet they both beat him so its irrelevant. David Haye does a lot of modern training techniques but hardley threw a punch versus Valuev or Klitschko and was blowing hard against Chisora, go figure.

Controversial wrote:

polecateddy wrote:As for modern training Rocky didn't do I enclose a Carl Froch interview;

http://au.askmen.com/sports/bodybuildin ... ealth.html

I go back to this idea of interval training. Speed endurance not through hitting a bag for hours or running 6 miles every single day, or whatever Rocky did. This concept of cross-training, interval training and building true speed endurance into the muscles, not just blanket strength and stamina. Yes, Carl Froch can do things in training Rocky never would or could.

Could Chageav, Chisora or any heavyweight for that matter follow the same workout routine as a super middleweight? Do Ward or Kessler follow the same routine as Froch, probably not, yet they both beat him so its irrelevant. David Haye does a lot of modern training techniques but hardley threw a punch versus Valuev or Klitschko and was blowing hard against Chisora, go figure.

I would imagine both Kessler and Ward, as well as the Klitschkos follow ultra modern approaches, where everything from the blood chemistry to nutritional intake is calculated and micro-managed. I imagine Rocky was a classic over-trainer, and his routines were incorrect and inefficient compared to the aforementioned fighters. Okay, Chisora is overweight. I would imagine Chageav at his best was very fit. There's nothing wrong with Haye's stamina, and his speed and power would be far too much for Rocky.

Chippo wrote:Haye's stamina is poor and his output and workrate are low - fact.

In the article above, you're still only focussing on fitness work, not the actual skill of boxing. this implies that the fittest guy always win (along with your supposition earlier that the biggest guy always wins).

There's more to boxing than just being fit. I don't agree with you that modern fighters are fitter than historical ones. A fighter fighting two 12 round fights a year cannot be in as good condition as someone fighting once a month, both fitness wise but also the sharpness of their skills. Training camps and sparring aren't as good as the real thing.

Watch Haye against Frag. Nothing wrong there stamina-wise. Likewise most of Valuev's opponents flagged badly in the late rounds, and Haye didn't. And again this idea of fighting often is helpful. It's like running long distances and hitting a bag for hours is helpful. The fact is your Froch's and Klitschko's hit faster, and hit harder than your 1950's fighters. Not to mention to the use of digital video of sparring to correct mistakes.

polecateddy wrote:...People couldn't even run under 4 minutes for the mile, which most people can do today....

Most people can run under 4 minute miles? Really?