Haye v Fury 8th Feb 2014

[sharpei_louis]

Horse if you genuinely believe that a 68.5% success rate is inferior to a 16% success rate - when the higher accuracy landed 50% more shots - and this proves your point, then there really is no logical or sensible argument to be had and everyone is wasting their breath. I've seen some clangers dropped but that takes the biscuit.

[Horse]

Horse if you genuinely believe that a 68.5% success rate is inferior to a 16% success rate - when the higher accuracy landed 50% more shots - and this proves your point, then there really is no logical or sensible argument to be had and everyone is wasting their breath. I've seen some clangers dropped but that takes the biscuit.

I suppose Haye won easily did he? You people.

[crusader]

I had Haye beating Valuev 115-114. He was obviously more accurate, but there were numerous rounds in which he did practically nothing (like 15 punches thrown), didn't land that well, and was significantly outworked; it's not like he was putting on a boxing clinic each round.

That said, there were few if any clear rounds for Valuev, and I think wide cards for Haye are acceptable.

[NazNaci1]

But your hardly impartial, to be honest.


To be honest, your opinion to you, maybe 'correct' but its no more valid than mine and I disagree.

You're a Fury hater. You are not impartial about his fights.

If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you then that's your problem, not mine. Only someone with no argument comes up with such sh*t as 'hater'. You have no argument.

It's just your own opinion based on how much you like Fury and how much you dislike Haye. The irony here is golden.

[sharpei_louis]

I think if its 68%-16%, and 90+ landed to 60+ landed, and the only significant punch landed was in the last round and wobbled the guy who landed the fewer shots, it could only go one way.
I don't get that you want to score a fight to a guy lumbering forwards and missing the vast majority of his punches, a lot of which weren't even thrown in range.
I get that it was a terrible fight, and that Haye only scraped through as Valuev was poorer, but to insist that Haye lost and we're all deluded is crazy - and you're backing up your argument with stats that completely contradict what you're saying. There must be basis in bias, because it's outright illogical what you're saying. Regardless of the Haye Fury fight you must admit that you're barking up the wrong tree with these punch stats surely???

[Horse]

If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you then that's your problem, not mine. Only someone with no argument comes up with such sh*t as 'hater'. you got no argument and evidence to even come close to proving anything.

It's just your own opinion based on how much you like Fury and how much you dislike Haye. The irony here is golden.

I don't really care if I can't convince you that Fury will beat Haye. Fury will do it in February and prove me right then.

[crusader]

That Valuev was the only one rocked means little given that it was limited to one round. Moreover, the disparity in punches landed isn't big in absolute terms and it doesn't say a lot given that it's not listed round by round, though admittedly those numbers don't really support Horse's position.

[Finn]

if you scored the fight for valuev id like to know how? bearing in mind valuev didnt land anything at all in that fight.

Haye barely landed anything either. Valuev had a much higher workrate.

Landed/Thrown/Pct.

Haye 98/143/68.5%

Valuev 64/390/16%

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

[sharpei_louis]

That Valuev was the only one rocked means little given that it was limited to one round. Moreover, the disparity in punches landed isn't big in absolute terms and it doesn't say a lot given that it's not listed round by round, though admittedly those numbers don't really support Horse's position.

The point I was making about who was rocked was more to do with the significance of punches, i.e. none of them in the whole fight bar one were really anything to write home about. In a battle of poor punches, the guy who lands most and with the best accuracy has to win in my book. If you want to tell me which rounds Valuev won I'd be happy to have another look at the fight, cause to my memory there were none. Haye did the same, i.e. nothing, or slightly more in every round.

[Horse]

I think if its 68%-16%, and 90+ landed to 60+ landed, and the only significant punch landed was in the last round and wobbled the guy who landed the fewer shots, it could only go one way.
I don't get that you want to score a fight to a guy lumbering forwards and missing the vast majority of his punches, a lot of which weren't even thrown in range.
I get that it was a terrible fight, and that Haye only scraped through as Valuev was poorer, but to insist that Haye lost and we're all deluded is crazy - and you're backing up your argument with stats that completely contradict what you're saying. There must be basis in bias, because it's outright illogical what you're saying. Regardless of the Haye Fury fight you must admit that you're barking up the wrong tree with these punch stats surely???

I don't get that you'd want to score a fight to a guy who runs away and hardly throws a punch.

[Finn]

I think if its 68%-16%, and 90+ landed to 60+ landed, and the only significant punch landed was in the last round and wobbled the guy who landed the fewer shots, it could only go one way.
I don't get that you want to score a fight to a guy lumbering forwards and missing the vast majority of his punches, a lot of which weren't even thrown in range.
I get that it was a terrible fight, and that Haye only scraped through as Valuev was poorer, but to insist that Haye lost and we're all deluded is crazy - and you're backing up your argument with stats that completely contradict what you're saying. There must be basis in bias, because it's outright illogical what you're saying. Regardless of the Haye Fury fight you must admit that you're barking up the wrong tree with these punch stats surely???

i think that was a fair summary. Haye didnt do anything amazing but he outlanded with quite a few clear punches in each round. When wlad managed to do exactly the same to haye in their fight it was described by many as a master class - not by me.

[sharpei_louis]

if you scored the fight for valuev id like to know how? bearing in mind valuev didnt land anything at all in that fight.

Haye barely landed anything either. Valuev had a much higher workrate.

Landed/Thrown/Pct.

Haye 98/143/68.5%

Valuev 64/390/16%

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

I've had this debate before... chuck me in with Floyd. I'll angle him back into a corner and spend three minutes of the round trying to hit him as he rolls and dodges away from every punch, laughing at me. At the end of the round I'll catch him on the shoulder with a shot and he'll jab me in the face. Would I win the round despite looking a complete clown and being toyed with? Not in my book!

[sharpei_louis]

I think if its 68%-16%, and 90+ landed to 60+ landed, and the only significant punch landed was in the last round and wobbled the guy who landed the fewer shots, it could only go one way.
I don't get that you want to score a fight to a guy lumbering forwards and missing the vast majority of his punches, a lot of which weren't even thrown in range.
I get that it was a terrible fight, and that Haye only scraped through as Valuev was poorer, but to insist that Haye lost and we're all deluded is crazy - and you're backing up your argument with stats that completely contradict what you're saying. There must be basis in bias, because it's outright illogical what you're saying. Regardless of the Haye Fury fight you must admit that you're barking up the wrong tree with these punch stats surely???

I don't get that you'd want to score a fight to a guy who runs away and hardly throws a punch.

I wouldn't want to, but by any fair scoring system and logic I would simply have to.

[crusader]

That Valuev was the only one rocked means little given that it was limited to one round. Moreover, the disparity in punches landed isn't big in absolute terms and it doesn't say a lot given that it's not listed round by round, though admittedly those numbers don't really support Horse's position.

The point I was making about who was rocked was more to do with the significance of punches, i.e. none of them in the whole fight bar one were really anything to write home about. In a battle of poor punches, the guy who lands most and with the best accuracy has to win in my book. If you want to tell me which rounds Valuev won I'd be happy to have another look at the fight, cause to my memory there were none. Haye did the same, i.e. nothing, or slightly more in every round.

I forget which rounds I scored for Valuev, but I gave him several for reasons I mentioned above. To me, if nothing much happens but one guy is pressing the action and his opponent is doing practically nothing, I will score for the former, and I felt there were numerous rounds in which Haye didn't land sufficiently to account for his extremely and relatively low activity.

[Finn]

I think if its 68%-16%, and 90+ landed to 60+ landed, and the only significant punch landed was in the last round and wobbled the guy who landed the fewer shots, it could only go one way.
I don't get that you want to score a fight to a guy lumbering forwards and missing the vast majority of his punches, a lot of which weren't even thrown in range.
I get that it was a terrible fight, and that Haye only scraped through as Valuev was poorer, but to insist that Haye lost and we're all deluded is crazy - and you're backing up your argument with stats that completely contradict what you're saying. There must be basis in bias, because it's outright illogical what you're saying. Regardless of the Haye Fury fight you must admit that you're barking up the wrong tree with these punch stats surely???

I don't get that you'd want to score a fight to a guy who runs away and hardly throws a punch.

what are you on? do you know how to score a fight? first and foremost its scored on clean shots landed if you land more in more rounds you win. If its unclear you then look at work rate, effective aggression, defensive mastery. You dont score points to someone for walking about swiping air just because their work rate is high. Did you go to the CJ Ross Academy of fight judging or something.

[Finn]

I've had this debate before... chuck me in with Floyd. I'll angle him back into a corner and spend three minutes of the round trying to hit him as he rolls and dodges away from every punch, laughing at me. At the end of the round I'll catch him on the shoulder with a shot and he'll jab me in the face. Would I win the round despite looking a complete clown and being toyed with? Not in my book!

exactly he landed one clean shot and you landed none - you lose end of, if you had both landed one punch each you then look at the quality of the punch, if thats the same you then look at effective aggression or ring craft depending on the element which stood out the most.

[crusader]

I've had this debate before... chuck me in with Floyd. I'll angle him back into a corner and spend three minutes of the round trying to hit him as he rolls and dodges away from every punch, laughing at me. At the end of the round I'll catch him on the shoulder with a shot and he'll jab me in the face. Would I win the round despite looking a complete clown and being toyed with? Not in my book!

I didn't see Haye clowning or toying with Valuev.

The were numerous rounds in which practically nothing of note---including one man humiliating the other with great defense--occurred. If that were true of your scenario and you significantly outworked Floyd while he practically did nothing, I wouldn't have a problem if the round were scored for you.

[Horse]

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

I showed those stats to show Haye's awful punch output. Who landed more power punches? Simply landing more punches doesn't mean a fighter deserves the win.

Since when did Haye win that fight easily? I can't remember that many people acting like Haye had put on a great performance straight after the fight.

[sharpei_louis]

This is starting to sound like Valuev was some really energetic busy fighter with an all-action syle really taking the fight to Haye who just wanted to dodge. Valuev didn't even walk forward for a lot of the fight himself, stepping tentatively forwards much of the time. Haye actually moved more than Valuev. That Valuev stuck a paw forwards when Haye was nowhere to be seen doesn't score him points to me. If you wanna score points on workrate alone, there has to actually be some evidence of a workrate.

And crusader, if you genuinely scored a round for me against Floyd in the fashion I described, I'm at a loss. It certainly explains where some of these bizarre results come from. Surely the scoring is there in order to ascertain who is the better fighter, it's a tool to determine that? If it's not then what's the point of scoring?
And you say that there were rounds where nothing occurred - including great defence - well if you're gonna score Valuev rounds when he doesn't even make Haye defend then how high is this workrate? I think Haye won clearly cause Valuev did nothing. But Haye was poor and didn't engage, that's obvious to everyone.

[Horse]

what are you on? do you know how to score a fight? first and foremost its scored on clean shots landed if you land more in more rounds you win. If its unclear you then look at work rate, effective aggression, defensive mastery. You dont score points to someone for walking about swiping air just because their work rate is high. Did you go to the CJ Ross Academy of fight judging or something.

Boxing isn't just about landing more punches, maybe you are the one who doesn't know how to score a fight.

[sharpei_louis]

what are you on? do you know how to score a fight? first and foremost its scored on clean shots landed if you land more in more rounds you win. If its unclear you then look at work rate, effective aggression, defensive mastery. You dont score points to someone for walking about swiping air just because their work rate is high. Did you go to the CJ Ross Academy of fight judging or something.

Boxing isn't just about landing more punches, maybe you are the one who doesn't know how to score a fight.

It certainly isn't about scoring points for throwing meaningless shots that have no prospect of ever landing either.

[crusader]

You described Floyd putting on a defensive master class and being in total control of the action even while on the defensive, which doesn't characterize what happened in Valuev-Haye at all.

I said above that if nothing of note occurred--and I consider what you described in the scenario of a noteworthy display of defense--I wouldn't have a problem with the round being scored for you. So, for example, if Floyd cautiously moved around the ring, threw practically nothing, didn't outland you at all or by much, never looked in control or command, and so forth, but you significantly outworked him and tried to make a fight, I wouldn't have a problem with the round being scored for you. This isn't amateur boxing, and you don't win rounds simply because you landed one more punch.

Haye did enough in enough rounds to win the fight on my card, and I have no problems with cards that have him winning by several points, but I strongly disagree that no rounds could've fairly gone to Valuev.

[Finn]

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

I showed those stats to show Haye's awful punch output. Who landed more power punches? Simply landing more punches doesn't mean a fighter deserves the win.

Since when did Haye win that fight easily? I can't remember that many people acting like Haye had put on a great performance straight after the fight.

Haye won. There was no controversy. And YES landing more punches does mean the fighter usually wins the round is not even debatable hence olympic style scoring.

The Four Components of Scoring
Scoring in professional boxing is rather subjective in nature. Controversy seems to arise after every close bout, and official scorers are often scorned by viewers that deemed the fight far from close.
Three ringside judges score bouts based on four factors:
Clean punching: “Clean” punches are punches that land on the face/side of the head and the front/side of the torso.
Effective aggressiveness: A boxer demonstrates this trait when he consistently and successfully moves forward in a controlled manner.
Ring generalship: The judges favor the fighter who controls the pace and style of the bout.
Defense: Boxers that skillfully incorporate defensive maneuvers receive credit in this area.


Even if you didnt take the clean shots as winning the round which you clearly arent, you're statistics showed that valuev missed haye by a massive margin therefore haye would win by ring generalship and defence, and because valuev missed such an incredible high percentage of shots it would not be classed as effective aggression.

So how are you scoring the fight to valuev?

[crusader]

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

I showed those stats to show Haye's awful punch output. Who landed more power punches? Simply landing more punches doesn't mean a fighter deserves the win.

Since when did Haye win that fight easily? I can't remember that many people acting like Haye had put on a great performance straight after the fight.

Most people didn't because they had it fairly close (so I assume sharpie thinks they're worthless as judges). Even a guy named 'Hayemaker' gave Valuev 4 rounds.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=125

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... =#p2128338

[Finn]

all you've done is proved my point - you score on clean punches landed and ability to avoid shots - boxing is the art of hitting without being hit - how does throwing punches at thin air translate into points in any method of scoring?

I showed those stats to show Haye's awful punch output. Who landed more power punches? Simply landing more punches doesn't mean a fighter deserves the win.

Since when did Haye win that fight easily? I can't remember that many people acting like Haye had put on a great performance straight after the fight.

Most people didn't because they had it fairly close (so I assume sharpie thinks they're worthless as judges). Even a guy named 'Hayemaker' gave Valuev 4 rounds.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=125

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... =#p2128338

a guy called crusader scored it by one round to haye. There was easily 3 rounds difference imo the judges scored it wider, apart from one who gave it a draw that says it all. No judge gave it to valuev. Some rounds haye did nothing the majority he was outlanding.