BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:That left hand, wasn't even that hard.....

As hard as the one Big Jim gives you if you don't have his dinner on the table when he gets in from work?

OH...I see it's a language thing.

I see your list for "BETTER"

And since we know "BEST" category is Ali (and that you are in agreement)

Please now add your listings for his "GOOD" Left Hooks.


So the list is complete.

Il Duce wrote:Little Joe

Was not a 'One-Punch' KO Artist.

Yes, he had a few of those knockouts, but that wasn't his moniker.

This is correct. Frazier was much more an attrition puncher rather than spectacular KO artist.

On a sheer power scale when it comes to heavyweights, I'd rate his left slightly below a 9 and his right about a 7.

The hook he put Doug Jones away with was said to be very impressive, but I've never seen it.

The hook he put Foster away with was very impressive and it was shorter and more powerful looking (at least to my way of thinking) than the longer hooks he used to put Ellis and Ali down.

Haven't seen the FOTC knockdown in quite a while, but I suspect Ali rode that hook a tad.

That was a perfect left hook thrown by a Great fighter. And also that was a great getting back up from a great fighter that is known as the Greatest. The hook and the getting up were great events. That is why that fight was the fight of the century. The best man won that night.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Frazier clearly won the fight, not even debatable. It was highly competitive and a great bout with a clear winner. Just like Duran/Leonard one. In defeat Ali & Leonard proved exactly how tough they were, but no legitimate scorecard has either one of them as the winner. And no, a draw isn't plausible either.

I sort of disagree. Both times the right man was given the decision but it was close enough that a draw or a close win the other way would have been controversial, but not a robbery. Particularly Duran-Leonard which was razor close, as the judges scorecards indicated.

I read about FOTC and The Rumble many, many times before I saw them…

What shocked me was…

(1) Ali dictated the Rumble almost all the way through the fight. Foreman maybe won 2 rounds at the very most… It really wasn’t the turn around victory I expected. Ali mastered him.
(2) FOTC isn’t really a fight I feel is debatable… Ali clearly wins the first 2 rounds…after that Frazier seems to eat up the middle rounds… Ali begins to turn the tide but then Frazier hurts him badly in the 11th…and the momentum returns to Joe. It’s a very competitive fight but there’s a clear winner

Il Duce wrote:I had Joe winning by 7-Points {145-138} scoring Rounds 5, 11 and 15 {10-8}.

Good job you're not a boxing judge then!
Arthur Mercante had it about right - scoring it 8-6-1 to Frazier and he was in the ring with them.

Joe Frazier won the first fight and Muhammad Ali won the trilogy.

Anything beyond that is conjecture, speculation, and rank revisionism.

Il Duce wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Joe Frazier won the first fight and Muhammad Ali won the trilogy.

Anything beyond that is conjecture, speculation, and rank revisionism.

#1...........Joe Frazier won, and put an 'Exclamation Point' on the Tip of Muhammad Ali's chin.

#2...........Muhammad Ali fought fairly well, but should have been DQ'd, or lost points for' filthy fouling'.

#3...........Joe Frazier fought a courageous battle with eye issues and kidney problems.

The trilogy ended with one man winning the all important and defining rubber match and his opponent unable to finish the fight and all your whining can not alter that fact.

Remember the John Adams quote that seems to rankle so many here. Since it rankles them so much I will just link it and not quote it, ergo:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3235.html

aajayunlimited wrote:Did they just give it to Frazier, because he was the first fighter to both give Ali a beating and a knockdown in a highly profiled battle of champions? When you count up the rounds, how do you have it?

Rounds 1 & 2 for Ali
3 slightly for Ali: I can see how it could be EVEN, because Frazier hurt Ali here(but remember Ali did a lot here plus he staggered Joe at one point).
Round 4 & 5 for Ali.
Round 6 - 8 for Frazier.
Round 9 & 10 for Ali.
11 & 12 for Frazier.
13 & 14 for Ali.
15 for Frazier.

I'm watching the fight right now. Tell me that I'm wrong to score that fight either 8-6-1 or 9-6 for Ali! If there were 2 point rounds, then Frazier would still lose(because he would get 2 extra points for 11 & 15, but Ali would get an extra point for round 9). That doesn't apply, but if it did: the fight would have been closer(1 point win for Ali). I--from scoring the fight--can't see a scenario for Frazier to win this fight as it went down.

This was not a fight where bias came into it.

Smokin' Joe won the fight, no matter how biased you are or how many times you view it.

jezzamundo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Frazier clearly won the fight, not even debatable. It was highly competitive and a great bout with a clear winner. Just like Duran/Leonard one. In defeat Ali & Leonard proved exactly how tough they were, but no legitimate scorecard has either one of them as the winner. And no, a draw isn't plausible either.

I sort of disagree. Both times the right man was given the decision but it was close enough that a draw or a close win the other way would have been controversial, but not a robbery. Particularly Duran-Leonard which was razor close, as the judges scorecards indicated.

Yeah, the judges scorecards never steer you wrong.

If one of them would have just had 5 more even rounds every round could have been a draw. Duran won no less than 9 rounds.

Frazier vs Ali I and Duran vs Leonard I were not even close fights. They were competitive fights, not close. Both of them, Duran and Frazier won those fights between 3 to 5 points in my view.

1.Ali
2.Ali
3. Ali
4.Ali
5.Ali
6. Ali [Frazier lands 2 fury combos; but Ali's punch ratio to Fraziers head that whole round was perfect enough to save him]
7.Ali.
8.Frazier [Ali rests on the ropes most of this round]
9.Ali
10.Ali
11.Frazier [Frazier staggered Ali]
12.Ali
13.Ali
14.Ali
15.Frazier - the knockdown.

11-4 in Ali

Most people who watch it without actually counting the punches and combos will automatically say Frazier based on appearance, that is, Frazier's aggression [pressing forward] and hard left hook. But if you have watched it over and over again, such as myself, and count the punches for each round with a pen and paper, pausing and rewinding, counting each fighter, count the punch ratios and combos, don't score body punches more than clean head punches, Ali literally annihilated Joe in all stats, hence why Joe was in hospital for one month; yes Joe was the aggressor by continually pressing forward, but pressing forward means nothing if the opponent, Ali, is out punching him by 4 punches to 1, jabbing him to death; and Ali was not only landing way more many punches than Frazier [in the rounds that he won], he was cleaning him in the head--Frazier could only really get the body. Yes Frazier would get that left hook in to Ali's head from time to time, but the amount of punches that ali would give him back just could not justify him loosing the round. In regards to punching power, Ali's one twos with that right were punishing Frazier, so it is not like you could not score Ali on power, as some do.

Prior to watching this fight I use to call Ali a sore loser. But when I watched it and scored it myself, I was so ashamed to have ever followed the public opinion. Ali was truly right: The fight was the white mans decision. They hated him so much at that time; Frazier would hit him with a hook, everyone would cheer; Ali would hit with 4 in a row, no one would say nothing.

JohnnyGhabach wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 09:21But if you have watched it over and over again, such as myself, and count the punches for each round with a pen and paper, pausing and rewinding, counting each fighter, count the punch ratios and combos, don't score body punches more than clean head punches, Ali literally annihilated Joe in all stats

Using the same method, I had Spinks scoring a TKO over Tyson.

wouter wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 12:53

JohnnyGhabach wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 09:21But if you have watched it over and over again, such as myself, and count the punches for each round with a pen and paper, pausing and rewinding, counting each fighter, count the punch ratios and combos, don't score body punches more than clean head punches, Ali literally annihilated Joe in all stats

Using the same method, I had Spinks scoring a TKO over Tyson.

On what planet do Body punches not count?

JohnnyGhabach wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 09:21 Ali was truly right: The fight was the white mans decision.

I won't comment other parts of your insane evaluation due to the obviousness of all things, which is somehow not so obvious to you, but I just mention, that Ali was showing off in public by saying that and he admitted the loss in narrow circles of people close to him.

If you don't count the punches at all and just look at the big picture, you feel Joe imposed his will on Ali and won the fight.

The KD in the 15th was the icing on the cake to a great performance that unfortunately left Frazier a finished fighter (we just didn't realize it at the time.)

Joe let out everything he had that night; it may be one of the greatest "do or die" performances the game has ever seen.

I guess by counting punches you could argue that Ali won the 'boxing match' (maybe), but just barely; in the end Joe Frazier won that fight; I believe even Ali felt it.

In one of the oddest outcomes you could imagine.....Joe DID win the fight on points....anyone should be able to judge that.....

With that said.......there is another assessment of fights.....and that would be...."who would you rather be at fights end"......and I have to say....I think Joe got more "beat up" in the fight.

So the sporting event.....Joe won........but if the Dr was the judge....Maybe not. Joe paid the bigger price to win......

But I can't imagine anyone honestly evaluating that Joe didn't have the points to walk away with the win on that night.

EVEN if the most amazing moment, was the Ali recovery. Still not enough to win.

wouter wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 12:53

JohnnyGhabach wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 09:21But if you have watched it over and over again, such as myself, and count the punches for each round with a pen and paper, pausing and rewinding, counting each fighter, count the punch ratios and combos, don't score body punches more than clean head punches, Ali literally annihilated Joe in all stats

Using the same method, I had Spinks scoring a TKO over Tyson.

I agree, if you watch that fight over and over again you eventually can see that there are a solid two or three seconds where Spinks is in complete control of the fight (but then Tyson starts throwing punches). Had the ref had the good sense to stop the fight before Tyson started throwing any punches, we would have had a different outcome. Spinks got robbed.

That's the key to watching fights over and over again, you eventually can see just about anything.

The fight was extremely wide in Frazier's favor I don't know what anyone is bothering speculating about.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑13 Jun 2018, 23:00 The fight was extremely wide in Frazier's favor I don't know what anyone is bothering speculating about.

It was a competitive fight. I don't think it was Wide in anyone's favor, but Frazier definitely deserved it.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑02 Nov 2013, 11:10
And you buy that? I have some land in Florida for ya friend!

Hey, "we don't do that no more" --the land actually has value now . . . well in the south anyway, you probably still should stay away from the pan handle.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑13 Jun 2018, 23:00 The fight was extremely wide in Frazier's favor I don't know what anyone is bothering speculating about.

Second half yes, the first half was very competitive - Frazier by several rounds plus a KD; it was Frazier at his apex, a grand night.

I went looking to see when Frazier entered the hospital and for what . . . interesting

His official enter date seems to be March 16th, eight days after the fight.

NY Times March 17th: "Joe Frazier was admitted to St. Luke's Hospital in Philadelphia yesterday for what his physician described as “high blood pressure” related to the world heavy weight champion's “commitments” following his strenuous victory over Muhammad Ali last week at Madison Square Garden."

But the wife cracked out with an odd statement during interview suggesting that something was going on as early as Thursday (March 11th), but the statement is inconsistent. Was he in hospital or in a hotel room? Does the flu give one high blood pressure?

Same Article: "According to his wife, Florence, speaking from their home in Whitemarsh, Pa., he stayed at St. Luke's for several days, beginning last Thursday, for treatment of the flu, but spent the nights in a Philadelphia motel rather than expose their five children to the illness."

As far as I remember, they were both sent in hospital after this fight.