BoxRec

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Joe would wake up as soon as Mike touched him. I wouldn't say Tyson was any faster than a prime Frazier either. The biggest difference between them is in-fighting. Joe was one of the greatest ever in tight and Tyson was clueless after a couple of programmed combos. Two guys coming forward and only one of them knows what to do when they collide.

I am not saying Tyson would win but he hit hard and fast with both hands, Joe on the other hand had one of the Greatest left hooks ever. Most boxing Historians list Patterson, Ali and Tyson as having the fastest hands as a Heavyweight.

I wouldn't put Tyson in that class. He was definitely fast, nothing that Joe hasn't seen before. He also was unable to improvise in the ring and thinking slowed down his punches exponentially. I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Joe would wake up as soon as Mike touched him. I wouldn't say Tyson was any faster than a prime Frazier either. The biggest difference between them is in-fighting. Joe was one of the greatest ever in tight and Tyson was clueless after a couple of programmed combos. Two guys coming forward and only one of them knows what to do when they collide.

I am not saying Tyson would win but he hit hard and fast with both hands, Joe on the other hand had one of the Greatest left hooks ever. Most boxing Historians list Patterson, Ali and Tyson as having the fastest hands as a Heavyweight.

I wouldn't put Tyson in that class. He was definitely fast, nothing that Joe hasn't seen before. He also was unable to improvise in the ring and thinking slowed down his punches exponentially. I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10.

Because Joe never started fast and Tyson did, I think he would have a very good chance especially in the early rounds. The only fighter Joe faced with that kind of hand speed was Ali and Tyson punched much harder then he did.

"Because Joe never started fast and Tyson did, I think he would have a very good chance especially in the early rounds. The only fighter Joe faced with that kind of hand speed was Ali and Tyson punched much harder then he did." hhascup




^

As a Frazier man, this scenario is what I'm a bit apprehensive about. Mike comes out fast and lands a big shot, goes totally berserk with his punching (thought process out, hand speed in) and gets Joe before Joe starts up.

Otherwise, if it turns into trench warfare (which I think it ultimately would) Frazier would indeed ruin Tyson.

yancey wrote:"Because Joe never started fast and Tyson did, I think he would have a very good chance especially in the early rounds. The only fighter Joe faced with that kind of hand speed was Ali and Tyson punched much harder then he did." hhascup




^

As a Frazier man, this scenario is what I'm a bit apprehensive about. Mike comes out fast and lands a big shot, goes totally berserk with his punching (thought process out, hand speed in) and gets Joe before Joe starts up.

Otherwise, if it turns into trench warfare (which I think it ultimately would) Frazier would indeed ruin Tyson.

I am in agreement with you But Frazier hardly ever backed up except the 2nd fight with Foreman. If he did get past those early rounds I believe the fight would swing to Joe's favor.

Frazier could be possibly coming out slow, I'm not sure that's the word for it anyway, but he never came out dumb, or lame.

The Quarry fight for example. Taking the temperature of the situation, letting the opponent melt himself down a bit, then taking charge more blatantly as the fight moves forward. He was even in charge in the round he lost.

I'm just not sure "slow" is the word you want to use. Doesn't work for me. But patient or measured does.

BoxBuzz wrote:Frazier could be possibly coming out slow, I'm not sure that's the word for it anyway, but he never came out dumb, or lame.

The Quarry fight for example. Taking the temperature of the situation, letting the opponent melt himself down a bit, then taking charge more blatantly as the fight moves forward. He was even in charge in the round he lost.

I'm just not sure "slow" is the word you want to use. Doesn't work for me. But patient or measured does.

Joe was knocked down by Mike Bruce in the 1st round, twice by Oscar in the 2nd round and of course 6 times by Foreman in the first 2 rounds. Even in his 2nd fight with Ali he was hurt in the 2nd round. Once Frazier got warmed up he was much more dangerous.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:
I am not saying Tyson would win but he hit hard and fast with both hands, Joe on the other hand had one of the Greatest left hooks ever. Most boxing Historians list Patterson, Ali and Tyson as having the fastest hands as a Heavyweight.

I wouldn't put Tyson in that class. He was definitely fast, nothing that Joe hasn't seen before. He also was unable to improvise in the ring and thinking slowed down his punches exponentially. I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10.

Because Joe never started fast and Tyson did, I think he would have a very good chance especially in the early rounds. The only fighter Joe faced with that kind of hand speed was Ali and Tyson punched much harder then he did.

Never? How come over half of Joe's knock outs were in the first 3 rounds? It definitely took him a bit to get 'smokin' but too many people act like he was sound asleep at the start of fights.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Never? How come over half of Joe's knock outs were in the first 3 rounds? It definitely took him a bit to get 'smokin' but too many people act like he was sound asleep at the start of fights.

I never said he was, I am only stating that he was not the starter Tyson was. Tyson had 22 first round stoppages, not counting McNeeley, to Frazier's 5. Frazier also had 5 more Stoppages in the 2nd round, Tyson had 7.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Never? How come over half of Joe's knock outs were in the first 3 rounds? It definitely took him a bit to get 'smokin' but too many people act like he was sound asleep at the start of fights.

I never said he was, I am only stating that he was not the starter Tyson was. Tyson had 22 first round stoppages, not counting McNeeley, to Frazier's 5. Frazier also had 5 more Stoppages in the 2nd round, Tyson had 7.

Where did I say that Frazier was a faster starter than Tyson? I just don't agree with your assertion that Joe NEVER started fast in a fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Never? How come over half of Joe's knock outs were in the first 3 rounds? It definitely took him a bit to get 'smokin' but too many people act like he was sound asleep at the start of fights.

I never said he was, I am only stating that he was not the starter Tyson was. Tyson had 22 first round stoppages, not counting McNeeley, to Frazier's 5. Frazier also had 5 more Stoppages in the 2nd round, Tyson had 7.

Where did I say that Frazier was a faster starter than Tyson? I just don't agree with your assertion that Joe NEVER started fast in a fight.

All I am saying is that Tyson was a much faster starter and the records prove that out.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:
I am not saying Tyson would win but he hit hard and fast with both hands, Joe on the other hand had one of the Greatest left hooks ever. Most boxing Historians list Patterson, Ali and Tyson as having the fastest hands as a Heavyweight.

I wouldn't put Tyson in that class. He was definitely fast, nothing that Joe hasn't seen before. He also was unable to improvise in the ring and thinking slowed down his punches exponentially. I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10.

Because Joe never started fast and Tyson did, I think he would have a very good chance especially in the early rounds. The only fighter Joe faced with that kind of hand speed was Ali and Tyson punched much harder then he did.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote: I never said he was, I am only stating that he was not the starter Tyson was. Tyson had 22 first round stoppages, not counting McNeeley, to Frazier's 5. Frazier also had 5 more Stoppages in the 2nd round, Tyson had 7.

Where did I say that Frazier was a faster starter than Tyson? I just don't agree with your assertion that Joe NEVER started fast in a fight.

All I am saying is that Tyson was a much faster starter and the records prove that out.

Ah, nice edit.

Again, I wouldn't argue that Tyson wasn't a faster starter. I disagreed that Joe never started fast in a fight. Mike certainly never started fast with an opponent of Joe's quality.

Joe was a Great fighter and he was at his best when he fought Ali the 1st time, two of the 3 judges gave Ali the first 2 rounds. Like I stated before Joe was knocked down a total of 9 times in the first 2 rounds against Bruce once, Oscar twice and Foreman 6 times. He just didn't start as fast as Tyson did.

hhascup wrote:Joe was a Great fighter and he was at his best when he fought Ali the 1st time, two of the 3 judges gave Ali the first 2 rounds. Like I stated before Joe was knocked down a total of 9 times in the first 2 rounds against Bruce once, Oscar twice and Foreman 6 times. He just didn't start as fast as Tyson did.

Tyson stopped Spinks, Etienne, Stewart, Carl Williams & Tillman all in the 1st round and he also stopped Berbick & Tony Tubbs in the 2nd round. None of these fighters are Joe Frazier but most of them were pretty good. If Oscar and Foreman can catch Joe early, I believe Tyson could too.

Again, I am not saying that Tyson would stop Frazier but his best chance would be early. If Joe took in a few rounds and didn't take that much punishment the tide would switch to Joe's advantage and he would most likely stop Tyson late in the fight.

hhascup wrote:Tyson stopped Spinks, Etienne, Stewart, Carl Williams & Tillman all in the 1st round and he also stopped Berbick & Tony Tubbs in the 2nd round. None of these fighters are Joe Frazier but most of them were pretty good. If Oscar and Foreman can catch Joe early, I believe Tyson could too.

Again, I am not saying that Tyson would stop Frazier but his best chance would be early. If Joe took in a few rounds and didn't take that much punishment the tide would switch to Joe's advantage and he would most likely stop Tyson late in the fight.

Seriously, how long are you going to hammer home a point that nobody disagreed with? 2 pages? 3?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Seriously, how long are you going to hammer home a point that nobody disagreed with? 2 pages? 3?

I don't know what that means But I am getting you right, are you saying that Tyson has no chance of beating Frazier, this is what you wrote I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10. now if you are that is what I call laughable.

Well I'll get back to you later as I have to leave to Ring Announce the New Jersey Golden Gloves in Jersey City.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Seriously, how long are you going to hammer home a point that nobody disagreed with? 2 pages? 3?

I don't know what that means But I am getting you right, are you saying that Tyson has no chance of beating Frazier, this is what you wrote I can't see him beating Frazier at their best even once out of 10. now if you are that is what I call laughable.

Well I'll get back to you later as I have to leave to Ring Announce the New Jersey Golden Gloves in Jersey City.

It means we all agree that Tyson was a faster starter. All I did was disagree when you stated that Frazier has never started fast in a fight. That's it.

As for him having no chance, I didn't say that either. I'm wrong all the time, but, no, I can't see him beating a peak Frazier in anyway.

Enjoy the card and I look forward to you repeating yourself some more for no reason at all.

I disagree with you on that and most boxing historians would too!

hhascup wrote:I disagree with you on that and most boxing historians would too!

That was a quick card. Who won?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:I disagree with you on that and most boxing historians would too!

That was a quick card. Who won?

I just got to the place and I have to set up to register some boxers so I need the internet.

This thread is suppose to be Rocky vs. Frazier and if I had to put my money on one, I would go with Frazier.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

hhascup wrote:I disagree with you on that and most boxing historians would too!

That was a quick card. Who won?

I just got to the place and I have to set up to register some boxers so I need the internet.

This thread is suppose to be Rocky vs. Frazier and if I had to put my money on one, I would go with Frazier.

Threads run off course all the time. Especially when you Tyson enthusiasts get involved.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Threads run off course all the time. Especially when you Tyson enthusiasts get involved.

I like Joe as well. At his birthday celebration after he passed away the family had 68 boxing people light a candle in his honor and I was one of them that was asked by his family. Every time I was with Joe he showed me nothing but class! His son Marvin and daughter were just as nice.

hhascup wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Threads run off course all the time. Especially when you Tyson enthusiasts get involved.

I like Joe as well. At his birthday celebration after he passed away the family had 68 boxing people light a candle in his honor and I was one of them that was asked by his family. Every time I was with Joe he showed me nothing but class! His son Marvin and daughter were just as nice.

I talk to Joe Jr here and there. I wrote a piece the night his father died, somebody passed it on to him, and he contacted me on FB. We exchanged numbers and stay in touch.