BoxRec

Please. Even elmer doesn't claim this.

Joe Joe Guerra

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jun 2020, 10:03

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Jun 2020, 07:12

So, you are saying that after 1982, he had a great career? I don't know if you was around in the 80s decade when he was fighting, but he didn't do all that great after the retina issues.

He had one of the great wins of his career after 1982. He didn't have a great run after that exactly, but the win in 1987 has to be up near the top of his best accomplishments.

You're right about the Marvelous win.
A great win? Yes.
A great accomplishment? Yes.
Did he beat a FADING MARVELOUS. Yes.

But, after that, what happened?
A great career after beating Marvelous? No. It was MEDIOCRE even in Sugar Ray's standards.

Let's see after 1982, gilgamesh. Do not be biased!

WTKO9 Kevin Howard: Howard dropped him in a 154lbs fight. The stoppage was baloney. To protect his image, the referee gave him the KO win. After that he retires, saying he didn't have it anymore. He got that right. Put the great Thomas Hearns on that night instead of Howard and we would have witnessed one of boxing's greatest massacres. That retina would have been around somewhere in that ring.

W12 Marvelous: It was his best win after 1982. Also his best performance win or lose. He won that fight outright. But, it was a FADING MARVELOUS. Let's not get that high up in here.

WTKO9 Donny Lalonde: Lalonde was the WBC World Light-Heavyweight Champion. Who the hell was he? Where did he came from? What was that? And on top of that dropped the great Sugar Ray? Embarrassing! Plus the guy had to drop 7lbs to fight Sugar Ray for the "newly WBC World Super Middleweight crown?" What a joke!
You see that, gilgamesh? Even the WBC governing body accommodated Leonard. Why? Is the question. Why? Leonard wins 2 crowns in 1 night? Really? Not even his own mama believed that crap.

D12 Thomas Hearns (II): The promoters, the governing bodies, the bad judges and everybody involved in boxing took the glory out of Tommy. What a shame! How can a man get dropped twice and the fight is a draw? Really? What an outright robbery! Both fighters looked shot, but their competitive spirit made it a good fight.

W12 Roberto Duran (III): After waiting for a long time for both to meet again after "The No Mas" we the fans got this bullshit? None of the two
showed nothing to be pleased about. And on top of that, the more washed up Duran gave him 20 stitches in his lower lip? Embarrassing.

L12 Terry Norris: "If Leonard wins this fight by decision, we all have to leave America!" That's what famous boxing announcer Ferdie Pacheco was saying during the last minutes of this fight. The Leonard cherry-picking caught up to him and Ray at 35 got the beating of his life. Norris smacked him around from post to post. I don't think that Norris wanted to knock him out. Sugar Ray was his idol. Leonard retires.


LKO3 Hector "Macho" Camacho: Really? Do we need to say more, gilgamesh?


Only 7 fights in 15 years. And it wasn't a joke, gilgamesh?

Is that deserving of top 10 all time pound per pound consideration?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 09:01

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Jun 2020, 10:03

He had one of the great wins of his career after 1982. He didn't have a great run after that exactly, but the win in 1987 has to be up near the top of his best accomplishments.

You're right about the Marvelous win.
A great win? Yes.
A great accomplishment? Yes.
Did he beat a FADING MARVELOUS. Yes.


Only 7 fights in 15 years. And it wasn't a joke, gilgamesh?

Is that deserving of top 10 all time pound per pound consideration?

He beat Marvin after coming back from a lengthy retirement himself.

He didn't take a tune-up fight. He came straight out of a long retirement, and immediately fought and beat the best of the best.

Fury didn't come out of retirement and IMMEDIATELY fight and beat Wilder. He fought two tune-ups first, and got a draw, and he's the Heavyweight kingpin of the moment, but he didn't do what Leonard did. He couldn't.

As for his post Hagler career, I'm aware of it, and I don't need a history lesson.

I hate to break it to you that Leonard's career didn't start in 1982. I know that f*cks up your favorite argument against him which is apparently this one I've seen you make now 5 or 6 times in different threads, but I've looked into it, and it turns out...yep he was pretty great before 1982.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 10:58

elmersalsa wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 09:01
You're right about the Marvelous win.
A great win? Yes.
A great accomplishment? Yes.
Did he beat a FADING MARVELOUS. Yes.


Only 7 fights in 15 years. And it wasn't a joke, gilgamesh?

Is that deserving of top 10 all time pound per pound consideration?

He beat Marvin after coming back from a lengthy retirement himself.

He didn't take a tune-up fight. He came straight out of a long retirement, and immediately fought and beat the best of the best.

Fury didn't come out of retirement and IMMEDIATELY fight and beat Wilder. He fought two tune-ups first, and got a draw, and he's the Heavyweight kingpin of the moment, but he didn't do what Leonard did. He couldn't.

As for his post Hagler career, I'm aware of it, and I don't need a history lesson.

I hate to break it to you that Leonard's career didn't start in 1982. I know that f*cks up your favorite argument against him which is apparently this one I've seen you make now 5 or 6 times in different threads, but I've looked into it, and it turns out...yep he was pretty great before 1982.

Well, I am glad that you agree that after 1982 his career wasn't all that. It was a FARCE and A COMPLETE CIRCUS.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 12:51

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 10:58

He beat Marvin after coming back from a lengthy retirement himself.

He didn't take a tune-up fight. He came straight out of a long retirement, and immediately fought and beat the best of the best.

Fury didn't come out of retirement and IMMEDIATELY fight and beat Wilder. He fought two tune-ups first, and got a draw, and he's the Heavyweight kingpin of the moment, but he didn't do what Leonard did. He couldn't.

As for his post Hagler career, I'm aware of it, and I don't need a history lesson.

I hate to break it to you that Leonard's career didn't start in 1982. I know that f*cks up your favorite argument against him which is apparently this one I've seen you make now 5 or 6 times in different threads, but I've looked into it, and it turns out...yep he was pretty great before 1982.

Well, I am glad that you agree that after 1982 his career wasn't all that. It was a FARCE and A COMPLETE CIRCUS.

Do you only measure Ali's career starting in 1973?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 10:58

elmersalsa wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 09:01
You're right about the Marvelous win.
A great win? Yes.
A great accomplishment? Yes.
Did he beat a FADING MARVELOUS. Yes.


Only 7 fights in 15 years. And it wasn't a joke, gilgamesh?

Is that deserving of top 10 all time pound per pound consideration?

He beat Marvin after coming back from a lengthy retirement himself.

He didn't take a tune-up fight. He came straight out of a long retirement, and immediately fought and beat the best of the best.

Fury didn't come out of retirement and IMMEDIATELY fight and beat Wilder. He fought two tune-ups first, and got a draw, and he's the Heavyweight kingpin of the moment, but he didn't do what Leonard did. He couldn't.

As for his post Hagler career, I'm aware of it, and I don't need a history lesson.

I hate to break it to you that Leonard's career didn't start in 1982. I know that f*cks up your favorite argument against him which is apparently this one I've seen you make now 5 or 6 times in different threads, but I've looked into it, and it turns out...yep he was pretty great before 1982.

AND that's top 10 for you? He had to do more, right? Career was too short to begin with.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 12:52

elmersalsa wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 12:51

Well, I am glad that you agree that after 1982 his career wasn't all that. It was a FARCE and A COMPLETE CIRCUS.

Do you only measure Ali's career starting in 1973?

At least Muhammad Ali's career after 1973 was way better than Leonard's. It's no contest.

Beating Wilfred Benitez to win your first World Title, avenging a loss in a great fight to Roberto Duran by completely humiliating him in the rematch, beating a Prime Thomas Hearns, and coming out of a long multi-year retirement to beat a dominant Champion that is considered one of the all time greats in his weight class in Marvin Hagler.

All major, major achievements that very few fighters can match. None match them in so few fights.

So whether or not you'd rank Leonard in the all time Top 10 or Top 15 or whatever. He's an All Time Great, and his record is fantastic.

Now for whatever reason you have an axe to grind with the guy for whatever reason. Doesn't change his record of great wins against Hall of Fame fighters.

It makes no sense to rank people by how long their career is. For example, if one guy has one gigantic win in 33 years, he should not be rated higher than another guy who had 4 gigantic wins in 8 years.

Ultimately, the only thing Leonard's career lacks in 20-30 or so automatic wins against stiffs. If his career record was say 56-3-1 instead of 36-3-1, a lot more people would have him in the top 10.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:03 It makes no sense to rank people by how long their career is. For example, if one guy has one gigantic win in 33 years, he should not be rated higher than another guy who had 4 gigantic wins in 8 years.

Ultimately, the only thing Leonard's career lacks in 20-30 or so automatic wins against stiffs. If his career record was say 56-3-1 instead of 36-3-1, a lot more people would have him in the top 10.

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:08

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:03 It makes no sense to rank people by how long their career is. For example, if one guy has one gigantic win in 33 years, he should not be rated higher than another guy who had 4 gigantic wins in 8 years.

Ultimately, the only thing Leonard's career lacks in 20-30 or so automatic wins against stiffs. If his career record was say 56-3-1 instead of 36-3-1, a lot more people would have him in the top 10.

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

What's your top 10 bruh

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:09

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:08

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

What's your top 10 bruh

Geez, not YOU again! Go troll somewhere else.

Ah, I just assume when someone says a guy isn't top 10 that they actually have a top 10, my mistake

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:11 Ah, I just assume when someone says a guy isn't top 10 that they actually have a top 10, my mistake

I'm sure I have a top ten/twenty in one of these threads. Go dig it up if my opinion means so much to you lately. I know I posted a list "not necessarily in order" a few times.

Simple questions triggering you a bit lately

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:14 Simple questions triggering you a bit lately

I may not recover.

You can do it oogs

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:23 You can do it oogs

Nah...going to my safe room.

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:08

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:03 It makes no sense to rank people by how long their career is. For example, if one guy has one gigantic win in 33 years, he should not be rated higher than another guy who had 4 gigantic wins in 8 years.

Ultimately, the only thing Leonard's career lacks in 20-30 or so automatic wins against stiffs. If his career record was say 56-3-1 instead of 36-3-1, a lot more people would have him in the top 10.

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

Why not? What is the argument against him?

Never really put this together before, although had some thoughts through the years. Anyway...

1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Muhammad Ali
3-Joe Louis
4-Henry Armstrong
5-Harry Greb
6-Benny Leonard
7-Tony Canzanari
8-Carlos Monzon
9-Ruben Olivares
10-Floyd Mayweather.

Quick list. I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise to some extent.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:48

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 15:08

Not for me. he accomplished plenty and I don't rate guys by their resume alone. He was a great fighter, but not top 10. Top 15-20 absolutely.

Why not? What is the argument against him?

I rate others better than him. SO it's not against Ray, but more for the others.

He beat better fighters than most of these guys.
He was more consistent than them.
He looked great on film. No way all ten of these looked better on film.
He along with Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford, Ali and Charles are about as rock solid as you can get.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 16:00 He beat better fighters than most of these guys.
He was more consistent than them.
He looked great on film. No way all ten of these looked better on film.
He along with Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford, Ali and Charles are about as rock solid as you can get.

Ok. That's your opinion.