BoxRec

at better fighter and the hypocrisy of complaining about excuses when fanboys like you always go for "fought the wrong fight" in Montreal instead of saying he got his ass kicked by a better fighter. Your Leonard and Ali lust is in need of therapy.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:This is you and me. Answer my question

No thanks.

Case closed. I rest my case content. Goodbye!

Better skilled fighter, my ass! Duran in Montreal showed without a shadow of a doubt, who was the better and skillfully fighter. That "theory" that Leonard "fought the wrong fight" is TOTALLY HOGWASH!

Ambling Alp II wrote:Why do people care about the 3rd Duran fight? It should not count as a big achievement. But why does he get criticized for it? Other guys beat Druan after this and didn't get criticized for fighting him. Larry Holmes does not get criticized for fighting Ali.

Of course the Lalonde fight was for WBS titles. It was for money. That is the main reason fighters take fights. Nobody is saying this makes him a great super middleweight or light heavyweight.

Holmes v Ali has no relevance whatsoever.

Ali was a great former champion who retired the previous year with the linear title, so with foresight at the time, it was entirely reasonable for Holmes to fight Ali without criticism.

Nearly all great former champions have exercised their 'right' to come back & try & reclaim their crown.

As it turned out, Ali was a walking heavy-bag that should have been nowhere near a boxing ring at the time, but we weren't to know that.

elmersalsa wrote:Better skilled fighter, my ass! Duran in Montreal showed without a shadow of a doubt, who was the better and skillfully fighter. That "theory" that Leonard "fought the wrong fight" is TOTALLY HOGWASH!

no, sir, it isn't.

Sugar Ray Robinson could do it all.

In my lifetime, Roy Jones Jr didn't have too many flaws.

The most skillful fighters of all time?

Joe Gans was considered the most skillful of the early years, Benny Leonard in the 20s, then Tommy Loughran in the 30s, Willie Pep, Pernell W, Roy Jones and Floyd. Those would be my picks. A few greater fighters than these (altho there arent many) clearly had incredible skills but they had other attributes like incredible ko power or physical ones. These are the ones that seemed to get by almost wholly on their fancy skills.

man wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Better skilled fighter, my ass! Duran in Montreal showed without a shadow of a doubt, who was the better and skillfully fighter. That "theory" that Leonard "fought the wrong fight" is TOTALLY HOGWASH!

no, sir, it isn't.

Sure is. I don't even know why Leonard fans cling to it. That fight was a positive for him, he took that ass beating like a man and even won the last two rounds. Great performance when he was forced to fight out of his comfort zone.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Better skilled fighter, my ass! Duran in Montreal showed without a shadow of a doubt, who was the better and skillfully fighter. That "theory" that Leonard "fought the wrong fight" is TOTALLY HOGWASH!

no, sir, it isn't.

Sure is. I don't even know why Leonard fans cling to it.

the life commentators almost immediately
stated that ray fought an unexpected fight
by standing flat footed in front of roberto.

that is not even disputable. you are outright
wrong. ray chose the way he fought, duran
did not force him to.

Exactly. Anyone can can watch the fight and see it immediately. And he stuck to it for most of the fight, at the beginning of the rounds before Duran even did anything.

This would have worked against most other fighters, but not against Duran. As it was, he was competitive and gave Duran a tough fight, but it was not quite enough.

This is not an excuse for Leonard. It is a criticism. Had he fought how normally did, he would have won. The loss while certainly not embarrassing, is obviously not as good as a win. He would deserve to be held in even higher regard as a great fighter.

Love the part earlier where Duran is supposed to be better defensively than Leonard. Priceless.

In the rematch, Leonard fought a smarter fight; and we see what happened. Duran could not cope with it. He always struggled with slick boxers. They could have fought 10 more times and Leonard would have won by fighting a smart fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote:This is not an excuse for Leonard. It is a criticism.

exactly.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote: no, sir, it isn't.

Sure is. I don't even know why Leonard fans cling to it.

the life commentators almost immediately
stated that ray fought an unexpected fight
by standing flat footed in front of roberto.

that is not even disputable. you are outright
wrong. ray chose the way he fought, duran
did not force him to.

LOL, the commentators are always spot on when they suite your argument. Leonard had zero choice on how that fight played out. I'm 100% correct. Sometimes pressure wins the day and Duran's was out of this world that night. if Leonard didn't grit his teeth and plant his feet he would have been run out of the ring.

I guess Duran fought the wrong fight the second time?

As for my good buddy Alp, Duran was definitively better than Leonard defensively. That was the main decider of Montreal. Ray had no weaknesses, but defense is the only attribute that wasn't great. He had great movement and could use that in some fights, in exchanges he was never hard to find; just hard to outfight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Sure is. I don't even know why Leonard fans cling to it.

the life commentators almost immediately
stated that ray fought an unexpected fight
by standing flat footed in front of roberto.

that is not even disputable. you are outright
wrong. ray chose the way he fought, duran
did not force him to.

LOL, the commentators are always spot on when they suite your argument. Leonard had zero choice on how that fight played out. I'm 100% correct. Sometimes pressure wins the day and Duran's was out of this world that night. if Leonard didn't grit his teeth and plant his feet he would have been run out of the ring.

I guess Duran fought the wrong fight the second time?

As for my good buddy Alp, Duran was definitively better than Leonard defensively. That was the main decider of Montreal. Ray had no weaknesses, but defense is the only attribute that wasn't great. He had great movement and could use that in some fights, in exchanges he was never hard to find; just hard to outfight.

I second that even though I never agreed with Saad in almost nothing.
Duran of Montreal beats any version of Leonard

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Sure is. I don't even know why Leonard fans cling to it.

the life commentators almost immediately
stated that ray fought an unexpected fight
by standing flat footed in front of roberto.

that is not even disputable. you are outright
wrong. ray chose the way he fought, duran
did not force him to.

I'm 100% correct.

usually you are a very smart poster, but you
got this one wrong. happens. i guess we do
not need to go on for too long back and forth
to see that all facts are on the table, we just
interpret them very differently.

elmersalsa wrote:Duran of Montreal beats any version of Leonard

i cannot judge that. but i know that leonard
made a wrong choice going into that fight.
it could very well be that even a dancing
leonard would have been beaten.

i doubt it since four months later the situation
was very different. one element was that roberto
had to make too much weight too quickly. another
was leonard making a very different choice.

i for one did not like at all how leonard mocked
duran and a dislike even more that he didn't offer
an immediate third fight. that would have settled
the score right there and probably would have
cleared duran from "no mas".

Duran was not exactly the top contender after quitting. How many people would pay for a third fight after that debacle?
If Duran wanted a 3rd go around, he would have got one eventually. Instead he fled to the Jr Middleweight class.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote: the life commentators almost immediately
stated that ray fought an unexpected fight
by standing flat footed in front of roberto.

that is not even disputable. you are outright
wrong. ray chose the way he fought, duran
did not force him to.

I'm 100% correct.

usually you are a very smart poster, but you
got this one wrong. happens. i guess we do
not need to go on for too long back and forth
to see that all facts are on the table, we just
interpret them very differently.

Nah, nothing will ever change either of our minds.

Crease wrote:Sugar Ray Robinson could do it all.

In my lifetime, Roy Jones Jr didn't have too many flaws.

The great Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't a good inside fighter. Neither Super Roy

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'm 100% correct.

usually you are a very smart poster, but you
got this one wrong. happens. i guess we do
not need to go on for too long back and forth
to see that all facts are on the table, we just
interpret them very differently.

Nah, nothing will ever change either of our minds.

that's how i see it.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Duran was not exactly the top contender after quitting. How many people would pay for a third fight after that debacle?
If Duran wanted a 3rd go around, he would have got one eventually. Instead he fled to the Jr Middleweight class.

i find that hard to believe. roberto was
outsmarted by leonard before and during
the fight, but he had no reason to be in
any way afraid. i am very sure he was
eager to fight him again.

"no mas" was pumped up to a ridiculous
size. duran should have gotten the benefit
of doubt that this was an extraordinary
event that happened for whatever reason.
don't forget that he was widely regarded
as an ATG lightweight.

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Duran was not exactly the top contender after quitting. How many people would pay for a third fight after that debacle?
If Duran wanted a 3rd go around, he would have got one eventually. Instead he fled to the Jr Middleweight class.

i find that hard to believe. roberto was
outsmarted by leonard before and during
the fight, but he had no reason to be in
any way afraid. i am very sure he was
eager to fight him again.

"no mas" was pumped up to a ridiculous
size. duran should have gotten the benefit
of doubt that this was an extraordinary
event that happened for whatever reason.
don't forget that he was widely regarded
as an ATG lightweight.

Yeah, Duran feared nothing in his life. Certainly not someone whose ass he had just kicked all over the ring. I don't know that anyone has that kind of performance in their arsenal more than once. Alp is just too in love with Ray to be objective. One could easily say that Duran "fled" to 54 to fight a guy Leonard was afraid to rematch.

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Duran was not exactly the top contender after quitting. How many people would pay for a third fight after that debacle?
If Duran wanted a 3rd go around, he would have got one eventually. Instead he fled to the Jr Middleweight class.

i find that hard to believe. roberto was
outsmarted by leonard before and during
the fight, but he had no reason to be in
any way afraid. i am very sure he was
eager to fight him again.

"no mas" was pumped up to a ridiculous
size. duran should have gotten the benefit
of doubt that this was an extraordinary
event that happened for whatever reason.
don't forget that he was widely regarded
as an ATG lightweight.

Yeah I know. Duran somehow gained over 60 pounds between fights and then magically lost it all to make 147 (in a five-month period of time and with the biggest fight of his life coming up mind you) and was not himself.
One of the all time great "my dog ate my homework" excuses.

Maybe Leonard's pet parrot Frankie died right before the first fight and we should not count that one.

As for a third fight, it takes two to tangle. Leonard can't defend his welterweight title against a Jr middleweight.

Makes absolutely no sense for Leonard to be afraid of Duran. If he was afraid, he would not have fought him a second time. Not to mention that he just outclassed Duran in the 2nd fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Duran was not exactly the top contender after quitting. How many people would pay for a third fight after that debacle?
If Duran wanted a 3rd go around, he would have got one eventually. Instead he fled to the Jr Middleweight class.

i find that hard to believe. roberto was
outsmarted by leonard before and during
the fight, but he had no reason to be in
any way afraid. i am very sure he was
eager to fight him again.

"no mas" was pumped up to a ridiculous
size. duran should have gotten the benefit
of doubt that this was an extraordinary
event that happened for whatever reason.
don't forget that he was widely regarded
as an ATG lightweight.

Yeah I know. Duran somehow gained over 60 pounds between fights and then magically lost it all to make 147 (in a five-month period of time and with the biggest fight of his life coming up mind you) and was not himself.
One of the all time great "my dog ate my homework" excuses.

Maybe Leonard's pet parrot Frankie died right before the first fight and we should not count that one.

As for a third fight, it takes two to tangle. Leonard can't defend his welterweight title against a Jr middleweight.

Makes absolutely no sense for Leonard to be afraid of Duran. If he was afraid, he would not have fought him a second time. Not to mention that he just outclassed Duran in the 2nd fight.

Anybody could outclass a fighter that was not in shape. Anybody can do that. A BIG DIFFERENCE between Duran at Montreal and New Orleans.

You're both nuts, neither of them had an ounce of fear for any man. They both had their night. I think they were both better in Montreal, others see it differently. To me they're both top 15 all time, Duran makes my top 10.

Ambling Alp II wrote:One of the all time great "my dog ate my homework" excuses.

actually my source is ray leonard.