BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

loudon wrote:You're trying to sell the BS that Roy Jones's KO losses when he was Gennady Golovkin's age of 35 don't count...and any questionable losses or even robberies that Golovkin suffers at 35 or older will be met with brickbats by haters like yourself... That's guaranteed.

Roy never disputed the knockdown by Del Valle... He knew damned well it wasn't a slip.

Kalan, how do you see the fight going technically between GGG and Prime RJJ? Did you see the Castro vs RJJ fight in 1992 where Castro managed to go all 12 rounds and show some solid work despite clearly losing? Do you see GGG eating some shots on the way in, and then eventually crowding RJJ and ripping him to the body?

I've noticed when I compare GGG of today to the one of 7-10 years ago (his debut) that he has far less head movement and is noticeably slower. Granted he is fighting weaker competition, but his raw speed and body movements are obviously superior back in 2007-2010. Had he been able to turn pro earlier and had proper management I don't doubt he would have been a superior Boxer AND ATHLETE in terms of raw speed. The GGG in the last 2 years or so seems a bit slower defensively and takes more risks. I do think he has some head movement today, but his reflexes are a bit slower and he is more focused on finishing his opponent right away then he was at the start of his career where his reflexes were at its peak.

Have you seen him in his 20's? Check him out on youtube -- he had more potential offensively and defensively and might have been an even better fighter had he started earlier.

Why is it so difficult to think that Roy Jones Jr couldn't hit him with a super fast and hard shot that might deter him from coming inside. Even Jacobs was showing him enough to deter him from coming in with his usual intensity in all of his prior 22 knockouts in a row?

nikos6 wrote:

Kalan wrote:

loudon wrote:You're trying to sell the BS that Roy Jones's KO losses when he was Gennady Golovkin's age of 35 don't count...and any questionable losses or even robberies that Golovkin suffers at 35 or older will be met with brickbats by haters like yourself... That's guaranteed.

Roy never disputed the knockdown by Del Valle... He knew damned well it wasn't a slip.

Kalan, how do you see the fight going technically between GGG and Prime RJJ? Did you see the Castro vs RJJ fight in 1992 where Castro managed to go all 12 rounds and show some solid work despite clearly losing? Do you see GGG eating some shots on the way in, and then eventually crowding RJJ and ripping him to the body?

I've noticed when I compare GGG of today to the one of 7-10 years ago (his debut) that he has far less head movement and is noticeably slower. Granted he is fighting weaker competition, but his raw speed and body movements are obviously superior back in 2007-2010. Had he been able to turn pro earlier and had proper management I don't doubt he would have been a superior Boxer AND ATHLETE in terms of raw speed. The GGG in the last 2 years or so seems a bit slower defensively and takes more risks. I do think he has some head movement today, but his reflexes are a bit slower and he is more focused on finishing his opponent right away then he was at the start of his career where his reflexes were at its peak.

Have you seen him in his 20's? Check him out on youtube -- he had more potential offensively and defensively and might have been an even better fighter had he started earlier.

Why is it so difficult to think that Roy Jones Jr couldn't hit him with a super fast and hard shot that might deter him from coming inside. Even Jacobs was showing him enough to deter him from coming in with his usual intensity in all of his prior 22 knockouts in a row?

Roy couldn't get anything effective on Golovkin.. Roy couldn't get anything on Glen Johnson who had a dozen losses.. I don't see Roy staying with GGG.. I see him getting knocked out cold.. In fact, Tarver is older than Roy and so is Glen Johnson.. They smashed Roy out.. I do think Roy was a great fighter...very fast with a lot of power -- but he was very stiff through the shoulders and vulnerable to jabs and straight power shots.. Roy would have destroyed Dariusz Michalcwezski if that fight ever happened.. Dariusz fought a lot of fighters who weren't any good and he built that 48-0 record fighting bums.. Triple-G has always been about fighting the best, but he's been the most avoided man in Boxing because he has withering fire power. I knew Jacobs would be a tough distance fight. He's very big and tall and a very good boxer and puncher.

GGG has very good head movement and slips punches well.. and he has a superior jab, much better than Roy Jones's.. He would jab the sh!t out of Roy and rip his head off.. And this is the result you're going to see with the Canelo fight if that MFer ever fights him.. Also Golovkin offered to go down 6 pounds to 154 to fight Mayweather when Floyd had a 154-pound title to defend.. Floyd refused to take that fight because he knew he'd get jabbed to death and blasted out.. I'm not a Floyd hater like a lot idiots out there.. Floyd definitely beat Castillo, De La Hoya, Maidana and Pacquiao, the 4 fights his haters insist he really lost -- but that makes no difference.. Triple-G would still flatten Floyd, and I think Spence, Brook, and Thurman would have beaten Floyd as well.. If Khan, Bradley, or Pacquiao ever fights one of those 3 they'll get their asses beaten as well.

Kalan wrote:
Roy couldn't get anything effective on Golovkin.. Roy couldn't get anything on Glen Johnson who had a dozen losses.. I don't see Roy staying with GGG.. I see him getting knocked out cold.. In fact, Tarver is older than Roy and so is Glen Johnson.. They smashed Roy out.. I do think Roy was a great fighter...very fast with a lot of power -- but he was very stiff through the shoulders and vulnerable to jabs and straight power shots.. Roy would have destroyed Dariusz Michalcwezski if that fight ever happened.. Dariusz fought a lot of fighters who weren't any good and he built that 48-0 record fighting bums.. Triple-G has always been about fighting the best, but he's been the most avoided man in Boxing because he has withering fire power. I knew Jacobs would be a tough distance fight. He's very big and tall and a very good boxer and puncher.
.

Was Dariusz Michalcwezski really that bad? He also seemed to have a nice powerful jab and decent high guard defense. He was losing to Montell Griffin, then blasted him out in the fourth round. Shows good resilience. Beat Virgil Hill soundly before RJJ got to him.

Also RJJ in his prime years (up to 35 years old) seemed to overcome his lack of effective defensive construct with reflexes and timing. Why not compare that version RJJ to GGG? You don't think he had much superior reflexes to GGG? Overall boxing skills maybe he was lacking in some areas from a fundamental standpoint, but its not fair to compare RJJ at 35+ to GGG at 30-35 -- GGG also has not gone up in weight as Roy did. RJJ going up and then coming back down from HW obviously messed him up pretty bad.

Roy went to a decision with Fermin Chirino at 168, BHop at 160, James Toney at 167 and Jorge Castro at 160. All of those fights he still arguably won almost every round. The rest of his opponents except Montell Griffin fight #1, and until Tarver #1 he had pretty much won almost every round and dominated most fights. Only elite talents like Bhop got some rounds off of him. Jorge Castro had a passable performance and James Toney maybe won a few rounds? That is dominance similar to GGG's level if you factor in the competition and the percentage of rounds won.

Why not give credit for his dominance in almost all of his first 34-35 fights at 28 years old?Pretty much untouchable and nearly perfect until the first Montel Griffin fight.

nikos6 wrote:Was Dariusz Michalcwezski really that bad? He also seemed to have a nice powerful jab and decent high guard defense. He was losing to Montell Griffin, then blasted him out in the fourth round. Shows good resilience. Beat Virgil Hill soundly before RJJ got to him.

Also RJJ in his prime years (up to 35 years old) seemed to overcome his lack of effective defensive construct with reflexes and timing. Why not compare that version RJJ to GGG? You don't think he had much superior reflexes to GGG? Overall boxing skills maybe he was lacking in some areas from a fundamental standpoint, but its not fair to compare RJJ at 35+ to GGG at 30-35 -- GGG also has not gone up in weight as Roy did. RJJ going up and then coming back down from HW obviously messed him up pretty bad.

Roy went to a decision with Fermin Chirino at 168, BHop at 160, James Toney at 167 and Jorge Castro at 160. All of those fights he still arguably won almost every round. The rest of his opponents except Montell Griffin fight #1, and until Tarver #1 he had pretty much won almost every round and dominated most fights. Only elite talents like Bhop got some rounds off of him. Jorge Castro had a passable performance and James Toney maybe won a few rounds? That is dominance similar to GGG's level if you factor in the competition and the percentage of rounds won.

Why not give credit for his dominance in almost all of his first 34-35 fights at 28 years old?Pretty much untouchable and nearly perfect until the first Montel Griffin fight.

Yes Michalcwezski was bad. I saw him box. He was easy to hit. Virgil Hill was easy to hit and a very soft puncher. Roy put Hill out in 4. Michalcwezski didn't have a jab, much less a nice powerful one. DM didn't blast Griffin out. He didn't put him down. He caught him with a good shot and Griffin retreated -- a super friendly referee stopped it. A joke stoppage. Reflexes and timing are things that don't leave you at 35. Roy hadn't fought anyone threatening until he fought Tarver, who he had ducked for a long time. Tarver was older than Roy and blasted him out. That's what a blast out is -- not what DM did to Griffin.

Toney was a great fighter but he entered training camp for Roy at 250. There was no possible way he was going to be ready for Roy. If you're going to talk about Chirino, Castro, and Griffin, the only thing I can say is you gotta be kidding. Griffin fought nobody before he fought Roy. Then he went back to fighting guys you never heard of and losing every time he stepped up. The only guy he beat was a James Toney almost as badly trained and conditioned as he was for Roy. Among Griffin's 8 losses is Beibut Shumenov who had 5 fights and couldn't box worth a damn. How do you lose to him if you're good?

BTW... Tarver beat Griffin every minute of ever round... 120-107 or something like this... And if you think Roy won the 1st of the 3 Tarver fights you're absolutely blind... Roy was badly beaten up after their 1st fight and he didn't get that way by outscoring AT.

Kalan wrote:

nikos6 wrote:Was Dariusz Michalcwezski really that bad? He also seemed to have a nice powerful jab and decent high guard defense. He was losing to Montell Griffin, then blasted him out in the fourth round. Shows good resilience. Beat Virgil Hill soundly before RJJ got to him.

Also RJJ in his prime years (up to 35 years old) seemed to overcome his lack of effective defensive construct with reflexes and timing. Why not compare that version RJJ to GGG? You don't think he had much superior reflexes to GGG? Overall boxing skills maybe he was lacking in some areas from a fundamental standpoint, but its not fair to compare RJJ at 35+ to GGG at 30-35 -- GGG also has not gone up in weight as Roy did. RJJ going up and then coming back down from HW obviously messed him up pretty bad.

Roy went to a decision with Fermin Chirino at 168, BHop at 160, James Toney at 167 and Jorge Castro at 160. All of those fights he still arguably won almost every round. The rest of his opponents except Montell Griffin fight #1, and until Tarver #1 he had pretty much won almost every round and dominated most fights. Only elite talents like Bhop got some rounds off of him. Jorge Castro had a passable performance and James Toney maybe won a few rounds? That is dominance similar to GGG's level if you factor in the competition and the percentage of rounds won.

Why not give credit for his dominance in almost all of his first 34-35 fights at 28 years old?Pretty much untouchable and nearly perfect until the first Montel Griffin fight.

Yes Michalcwezski was bad. I saw him box. He was easy to hit. Virgil Hill was easy to hit and a very soft puncher. Roy put Hill out in 4. Michalcwezski didn't have a jab, much less a nice powerful one. DM didn't blast Griffin out. He didn't put him down. He caught him with a good shot and Griffin retreated -- a super friendly referee stopped it. A joke stoppage. Reflexes and timing are things that don't leave you at 35. Roy hadn't fought anyone threatening until he fought Tarver, who he had ducked for a long time. Tarver was older than Roy and blasted him out. That's what a blast out is -- not what DM did to Griffin.

Toney was a great fighter but he entered training camp for Roy at 250. There was no possible way he was going to be ready for Roy. If you're going to talk about Chirino, Castro, and Griffin, the only thing I can say is you gotta be kidding. Griffin fought nobody before he fought Roy. Then he went back to fighting guys you never heard of and losing every time he stepped up. The only guy he beat was a James Toney almost as badly trained and conditioned as he was for Roy. Among Griffin's 8 losses is Beibut Shumenov who had 5 fights and couldn't box worth a damn. How do you lose to him if you're good?

That's some nice internal dialogue going on there.... Maybe Golden Oldie can join in too, or is he out watching Zale vs. Graziano reruns?

Maybe you should watch a few boxing "reruns." They're readily available online for free... You might learn a thing or 2.

I don't think Klitschko had yet reached his prime when he lost to Purrity. He also had a great unbeaten run from 2004 to 2015 that is unmatched by Hearns.

Purrity was a stiff. You don't get to use the not reached your prime excuse when you lose a stiff in your 25th fight. The unbeaten streak? Yet another misleading boxing stat. Many fighters in boxing history could have done that against that competition.

Back to the post at hand:

Toney UD or late stoppage over GGG.

Bernard Hopkins SD over GGG

Roy Jones UD or KO over GGG.


Admittedly, GGG has slowed down a bit in the last year or so. But, he is just too hittable to confidently pick over any of these 3 hall of famers. If Toney came in weight drained like he did against Tiberi, he could lose a decision. But, best vs best, I pick Toney. And the Jones of the Thomas Tate fight would be hell on Earth for any middleweight in history. Unbelievable combination of speed and power.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Purrity was a stiff. You don't get to use the not reached your prime excuse when you lose a stiff in your 25th fight. The unbeaten streak? Yet another misleading boxing stat. Many fighters in boxing history could have done that against that competition.

Puritty was no stiff. From his 6th through his 54th fight he had 1 stoppage loss to Vitali Klitschko... He drew with Tommy Morrison in a fight most had Puritty winning because he floored Morrison twice.. He beat Joe Hipp who was 38-4 and a tough guy.. He fought 5 Heavyweight Champions so he was matched tough. He had a winning record of 31-20-3.. He had 27 KO wins.. Wlad was underweight from the flu when he fought him.. He never came within 10 pounds of being that light again.. Wladimir was very angry at the stoppage.. Wladimir was miles ahead on the scorecards.. He said he could feel Puritty's punches weakening as he tried to put WK out with a non-stop desperation barrage, but he wasn't finishing him off.. Wlad wasn't down or staggering when his corner stepped into the ring to stop it.. Wlad was so angry he said he felt like punching his corner guy out.

I think Dempsey had more fights than Klitschko when he lost to Fireman Jim Flynn

As for the remark that many Heavyweights could have done what Wladimir Klitschko did against his competition???

Nobody else ever knocked out Eddie Chambers... Nobody else ever knocked out Calvin Brock... Nobody else ever knocked out Kubrat Pulev... Nobody else ever or beat Alexander Povetkin... Nobody else ever knocked Povetkin down... Nobody else ever beat a prime David Haye... Nobody else ever beat Sultan Ibragimov... Wlad was the first Heavyweight to stop Lamon Brewster... Wlad was the first fighter to stop Ray Mercer.. And he's the only fighter to completely dominate a prime Chris Byrd and he beat at least 8 Heavyweight Champions.. Few, if any other ATG's could have accomplished those things.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Purrity was a stiff. You don't get to use the not reached your prime excuse when you lose a stiff in your 25th fight. The unbeaten streak? Yet another misleading boxing stat. Many fighters in boxing history could have done that against that competition.

Jersey Joe Walcott lost to Johnny Allen, 11-14, in his 40th fight... At least Puritty had a winning record and fought a draw with a Heavyweight Champ

Wlad had been a pro for just 2 years when he lost to Purrity, and he had only been in with journeymen types.

He certainly hadnt reached his prime

You saw David Tiberi outwork Toney and Montell Griffin outwork Toney... Golovkin beats the Hell out of Toney

You saw Sergei Kovalev easily outjab Hopkins and beat him 120-107 on all scorecards... Golovkin jabs the Hell out of Hopkins

You saw Glen Johnson apply good pressure, beat on Roy Jones for a lot of rounds, and knock him dead... Golovkin knocks Roy stiff

Kalan wrote:You saw David Tiberi outwork Toney and Montell Griffin outwork Toney... Golovkin beats the Hell out of Toney

You saw Sergei Kovalev easily outjab Hopkins and beat him 120-107 on all scorecards... Golovkin jabs the Hell out of Hopkins

You saw Glen Johnson apply good pressure, beat on Roy Jones for a lot of rounds, and knock him dead... Golovkin knocks Roy stiff

Would this mean that Golovkin would put a beating on Holyfield as well? Or is this a "styles" anomaly in this case?


You had Toney as Holy's forever master in an earlier opining of yours.

Who d fook is picking GGG over Toney?

Toney eats GGG alive. It would be a massacre. Toney would barely get hit and would be too strong and too tough and too accurate for GGG. I see a mid to late rds KO-Stoppage.Toney would stand right in the middel of the ring and beat up on GGG all night. GGG has nothing to beat Toney with. Too slow and no way does he outwork Toney when he's getting hit non stop. He may throw more, but Toney will be the one landing way more.

walshb wrote:Who d fook is picking GGG over Toney?

Toney eats GGG alive. It would be a massacre. Toney would barely get hit and would be too strong and too tough and too accurate for GGG. I see a mid to late rds KO-Stoppage.Toney would stand right in the middel of the ring and beat up on GGG all night. GGG has nothing to beat Toney with. Too slow and no way does he outwork Toney when he's getting hit non stop. He may throw more, but Toney will be the one landing way more.

How would GGG do against Reggie Johnson and Dave Tibieri?

Tomasino wrote:

walshb wrote:Who d fook is picking GGG over Toney?

Toney eats GGG alive. It would be a massacre. Toney would barely get hit and would be too strong and too tough and too accurate for GGG. I see a mid to late rds KO-Stoppage.Toney would stand right in the middel of the ring and beat up on GGG all night. GGG has nothing to beat Toney with. Too slow and no way does he outwork Toney when he's getting hit non stop. He may throw more, but Toney will be the one landing way more.

How would GGG do against Reggie Johnson and Dave Tibieri?

Could beat both...Not sure what your point is.

Toney on form at MW eats GGG alive. Toney is a horrible style match up for GGG.

walshb wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

walshb wrote:Who d fook is picking GGG over Toney?

Toney eats GGG alive. It would be a massacre. Toney would barely get hit and would be too strong and too tough and too accurate for GGG. I see a mid to late rds KO-Stoppage.Toney would stand right in the middel of the ring and beat up on GGG all night. GGG has nothing to beat Toney with. Too slow and no way does he outwork Toney when he's getting hit non stop. He may throw more, but Toney will be the one landing way more.

How would GGG do against Reggie Johnson and Dave Tibieri?

Could beat both...Not sure what your point is.

Toney on form at MW eats GGG alive. Toney is a horrible style match up for GGG.

So would that be the Toney of the Sosa fight or McCallum then? I remember him getting hit lots at 160lbs...

Tomasino wrote:

walshb wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

How would GGG do against Reggie Johnson and Dave Tibieri?

Could beat both...Not sure what your point is.

Toney on form at MW eats GGG alive. Toney is a horrible style match up for GGG.

So would that be the Toney of the Sosa fight or McCallum then? I remember him getting hit lots at 160lbs...

Ok, let's says he gets hit a lot? So what....chin of steel, plus he will be connecting much more and much cleaner..

walshb wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

walshb wrote:
Could beat both...Not sure what your point is.

Toney on form at MW eats GGG alive. Toney is a horrible style match up for GGG.

So would that be the Toney of the Sosa fight or McCallum then? I remember him getting hit lots at 160lbs...

Ok, let's says he gets hit a lot? So what....chin of steel, plus he will be connecting much more and much cleaner..

If you say so.

walshb wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

walshb wrote:Who d fook is picking GGG over Toney?

Toney eats GGG alive. It would be a massacre. Toney would barely get hit and would be too strong and too tough and too accurate for GGG. I see a mid to late rds KO-Stoppage.Toney would stand right in the middel of the ring and beat up on GGG all night. GGG has nothing to beat Toney with. Too slow and no way does he outwork Toney when he's getting hit non stop. He may throw more, but Toney will be the one landing way more.

How would GGG do against Reggie Johnson and Dave Tibieri?

Could beat both...Not sure what your point is.
.

How do you think the style match works with Reggir Johnson?

BoxBuzz wrote:

Kalan wrote:You saw David Tiberi outwork Toney and Montell Griffin outwork Toney... Golovkin beats the Hell out of Toney

You saw Sergei Kovalev easily outjab Hopkins and beat him 120-107 on all scorecards... Golovkin jabs the Hell out of Hopkins

You saw Glen Johnson apply good pressure, beat on Roy Jones for a lot of rounds, and knock him dead... Golovkin knocks Roy stiff

Would this mean that Golovkin would put a beating on Holyfield as well? Or is this a "styles" anomaly in this case?


You had Toney as Holy's forever master in an earlier opining of yours.

I'm not making a Heavyweight out of Golovkin... Toney was a Heavyweight when he was 34... That's when he fought Holyfield at 218.. He didn't spend a long time as Middleweight Champion and ate his way out of the division... He carried a lot of poundage well... Golovkin is already 35 and still a Middleweight and Toney was 60 pounds north of there.. But as a Middleweight GGG beats anybody.