BoxRec

Badhusker, would you, please, make a top 5 list of most skillful current HWs.

In theory yes. The reality may fail to materialise or come close to theory if it does. Fury is currently hugely overweight and has been dropped by far lesser punchers.
I look forward to the fight happening.

Kalan wrote:

candyslim wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Yeah I agree... You'd like to take all his money too right??? Cooper would have as much chance to KO Fury as a giraffe has of driving a Aston Martin.

You're right, giraffes should stick to jaguar or BMW Seriously I do hate it when you rubbish 'Enery Cooper, although I'm very biased when it comes to him, I accept that. I think any man of 6' and 190lbs is going to be at an enormous disadvantage fighting, or maybe that should be attempting to fight, a 6' 9" Tyson at his most effective / elusive.

Henry was a good boxer with a sound chin, who suffered terribly from being so prone to cuts. He frequently conceded weight to opponents often beating them. When he floored the young Cassius Clay with his famed left hook ('Enery's 'Ammer) Clay didn't know what planet he was on, and if Angelo Dundee hadn't deliberately split open Clay's glove to buy time, Muhammad Ali would have a clean knockout loss on his record. Clay's punch resistance probably wasn't what it became in his Ali years, but that Cooper left hook was a formidable shot if it caught you flush, and I'm not sure Fury would have got up from a Cooper left hook right on the button, the way he did Cunningham's right hand. Cunningham was a slicker boxer but not necessarily a better one.

I'd favour Fury to keep away from Cooper and jab from distance winning a boring fight widely on points, but if Henry did manage to land his best shot it might have gotten very interesting indeed.

Clay was hurt by Cooper's left hook but got to his feet easily and was fully alert during the 1 minute rest between rounds... Dundee DIDN'T slit any glove and NO gloves were changed... It's a total BS story... If you watch the fight on youtube you'll find the rest period lasted 1 minute and Clay was fully alert and had no trouble finishing Cooper off in the next round.. The whole story is an urban myth perpetrated by Angie Dundee.

Cooper did NOT have a sound chin.. Henry was knocked down and out for the entire 10-count out several times... Including by Floyd Patterson.. Zora Folley.. Ingemar Johannson.. and Joe Bygraves.. Very FEW high ranking boxers get knocked out for the full count as often as Cooper.. His chin was as notoriously weak as the skin around his eyes was easily nicked open. I don't see anyone of his size and skills putting anything on a boxer as good and as massive as Tyson Fury.. Cooper would be gone quickly versus the skillful Fury who was 60 odd pounds heavier.. Steve Cunningham was only knocked out ONCE in his life---by Tyson Fury---and NOT in England, in America with an American referee.. Fury knew he was going to knock Cunningham out because he only weighed 210.. He asked Steve if he could buy advertising on the bottom of his shoes. Cooper weighed 185 and had no chin.. He would be knocked FLAT!!!

But as a person I did like Henry Cooper very much.. He seemed to be an absolute PRINCE of a person.. As gracious and kind as they come.

He was indeed a very fine man and that's one reason for his enduring popularity in the UK. With the best will in the world he was not a genuine world level fighter, although that hook gave him a chance against most. Jim Wicks would take care not to put him in with the likes of Liston or Frazier which would have been an horrendous mismatch, but he won and lost against Folley and gave Clay/Ali a memorable scare (I watched it again as you suggested but there was no telling what was going on in that corner).

I said he had a sound chin not a great one, but the guys who knocked him out were no mugs. Just because a fighter falls short of world class doesn't mean he isn't deserving of respect especially when he is so respectful of others.

Cooper is as deserving of respect as any boxer ever.. He was a straight shooter.. regardless of his character, you have to be real about his actual skills and talent.. Whatever was going on in Clay's corner there was no glove change like Dundee used to BS people. He said he bought Clay a couple extra minutes by demanding a glove change. Clay was fine and didn't need a stall job.. I don't believe Cooper actually beat Folley.. In the rematch Folley was playing for keeps. He didn't want another hometown job.

Cooper's chin was nowhere. If Your chin is good you never get counted out from a chin shot. Or if you do it's like once in your career. Cooper's legs started going whenever he got tagged real good. Zora Folley also had a terrible chin and that was a well known fact.. It's nothing you can do anything about.. You don't get to select your parents

I watched Cooper/Folley 1 yesterday and it was very competitive. There may have been an element of the home fighter getting the decision in a pick 'em fight but it was no robbery. I don't think there's much doubt about the rematch. Anyway I'll leave it there ... like I said I am quite biased when it comes to Cooper.

ValMar wrote:Badhusker, would you, please, make a top 5 list of most skillful current HWs.

You said Fury was the most skillful since Ali, so that list would be long ahead of Fury. As far as current heavys, that list is relatively short. Are you backing off your initial claim? If Fury was currently boxing, he might crack the top ten of Heavyweights, but he is not. His size is his best attribute, not his skills.

Badhusker wrote:

ValMar wrote:Badhusker, would you, please, make a top 5 list of most skillful current HWs.

You said Fury was the most skillful since Ali, so that list would be long ahead of Fury. As far as current heavys, that list is relatively short. Are you backing off your initial claim? If Fury was currently boxing, he might crack the top ten of Heavyweights, but he is not. His size is his best attribute, not his skills.

I don't want to be misunderstood. I am not TF's fan, but I have to respect him as a fighter who defeated Wladimir Klitschko (invincible for a decade). He is definitely awkvard, elusive, slick, mobile, has a good stamina....On the other side, he has a weak chin, and he is not very powerful puncher, considering his size/weight.
Anyway, I would like to see your top 5 list - most skillful current HW, and top 5 list - most skillful HW since 2000. I would really like to see your lists.

Yes he is

Anyone that says no is in denial

ValMar wrote:

Badhusker wrote:

ValMar wrote:Badhusker, would you, please, make a top 5 list of most skillful current HWs.

You said Fury was the most skillful since Ali, so that list would be long ahead of Fury. As far as current heavys, that list is relatively short. Are you backing off your initial claim? If Fury was currently boxing, he might crack the top ten of Heavyweights, but he is not. His size is his best attribute, not his skills.

I don't want to be misunderstood. I am not TF's fan, but I have to respect him as a fighter who defeated Wladimir Klitschko (invincible for a decade). He is definitely awkvard, elusive, slick, mobile, has a good stamina....On the other side, he has a weak chin, and he is not very powerful puncher, considering his size/weight.
Anyway, I would like to see your top 5 list - most skillful current HW, and top 5 list - most skillful HW since 2000. I would really like to see your lists.

I get it, you don't want to be misunderstood, but refuse to admit what you actually said, and what I disputed......that Fury was the most skillful since Ali?

Whatever, maybe you don't remember that. I think a lot of heavyweights today are more skillful than Fury. In no certain order; Ortiz, Wilder, Takam, Pulev, Ruiz, Haye, Parker, Povetkin, Joshua, Stiverne, Wlad, Miller, Glazkov, Scott, Duhaupas, Washington, Jennings. No, all would not be Fury, but you asked my opinion of those I thought were technically more skillful. To me fury looks clumsy, sloppy, fairly slow, and doesn't punch hard. He does some things sometimes that are good, but I personally cringe watching him try to act like Ali, or someone he is not. Ask 10 different people and you will get 10 different answers. Kind of like pfp opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Fury may be on quite a few folks top guys at heavyweight, but not mine.

Fury is so far from Ali's skill it seems ridiculous to even discuss. Since 2000? Here are a few that come to mind; Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, V. Klitscko, Byrd, Tony, O. Norris, Ruddock, Page, Witherspoon, M. Grant. Some of the above fought both in the 90's, a few in the 80's and through the 2000's.

Pre-2000 especially 60's-90's were the best era for heavyweights, imo.

I forgot to mention Jun Long Zhang, Zhilei Zhang, and Kyotaro Fujimoto. They would all kick Fury's ass.

Badhusker wrote: I think a lot of heavyweights today are more skillful than Fury. In no certain order; Ortiz, Wilder, Takam, Pulev, Ruiz, Haye, Parker, Povetkin, Joshua, Stiverne, Wlad, Miller, Glazkov, Scott, Duhaupas, Washington, Jennings. No, all would not be Fury, but you asked my opinion of those I thought were technically more skillful

All those guys box technically better than Tyson Fury??? That’s fruitcake stuff man. Some of those guys are terrible boxers and Fury is really talented.

With the exception of Ortiz, who’s a damned great boxer...Wlad who is slipping...Povetkin who still has skills...Haye who looked terrible in his last fight...and Joshua who's a very skilled boxer as well...I could go through your laughable list 1-by-1 and refute them. I don't have the time. But the most glaring example is Pulev.. He’s opposite of a slick and masterful boxer.. Pulev barely beat Chisora and Fury won every round from Chisora and stopped him.. Chisora swung away uselessly at Fury – who gave a masterful exhibition, boxing southpaw most of the way... Then you have Pulev’s pathetic showing against Klitschko, getting smashed with loaded left hooks and dropped like a ton of bricks several times before being smashed out cold.. Pulev is George Chuvalo with a jab. He’s wide open.

lol, of course BH's list is filled with Wilder opponents

Fury is not the most skilled since Ali, but he's certainly more skilled than people like Washington, Duhaupas, Parker, Stiverne, and Miller. I also think he edges guys like Ortiz and AJ in lateral movement, angles, and jabbing, and he's shown the ability to fight effectively orthodox and southpaw (look at how he clowned Chisora with southpaw jabs and footwork in their rematch--a Chisora that stopped Scott a year before and later gave Whyte hell)

His size obviously plays a role in his success, but the whole 'he's just big and can't box very well' stuff is laughable.

crusader wrote:lol, of course BH's list is filled with Wilder opponents

Fury is not the most skilled since Ali, but he's certainly more skilled than people like Washington, Duhaupas, Parker, Stiverne, and Miller. I also think he edges guys like Ortiz and AJ in lateral movement, angles, and jabbing, and he's shown the ability to fight effectively orthodox and southpaw (look at how he clowned Chisora with southpaw jabs and footwork in their rematch--a Chisora that stopped Scott a year before and later gave Whyte hell)

His size obviously plays a role in his success, but the whole 'he's just big and can't box very well' stuff is laughable.

Good post

I should of listed every top 15 from all the ABC's currently. Hell, I haven't even seen some of them fight.

Now, can we get back to discussing active (current) boxers?

Here are the current rankings. Fury is not on it because.......oh that's right, he is such a danger to Joshua.

Badhusker wrote: Now, can we get back to discussing active (current) boxers?

Here are the current rankings. Fury is not on it because.......oh that's right, he is such a danger to Joshua.

My top 5 list (the most skillful HWs, without Fury :
1. Ortiz
2. Povetkin
3. Klitschko (basicly strength/size/power type, but with very solid skillset)
4. Joshua (the same as for Klitschko)
5. Solis (I hope he is active, at least - alive)

Badhusker, it is nothing personal, but I can not imagine boxing fan who would not like to see Joshua-Fury fight.

Of course Fury is dangerous. If he farts at Joshua we'll be scrubbing him off of the floor.

Speaking seriously though I can think of quite a few HWs that are more dangerous to Joshua then Fury. Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Lennox Lewis are just some that comes to mind.

Kalan wrote:Clay was hurt by Cooper's left hook but got to his feet easily and was fully alert during the 1 minute rest between rounds... Dundee DIDN'T slit any glove and NO gloves were changed... It's a total BS story... If you watch the fight on youtube you'll find the rest period lasted 1 minute and Clay was fully alert and had no trouble finishing Cooper off in the next round.. The whole story is an urban myth perpetrated by Angie Dundee.

Cooper did NOT have a sound chin.. Henry was knocked down and out for the entire 10-count out several times... Including by Floyd Patterson.. Zora Folley.. Ingemar Johannson.. and Joe Bygraves.. Very FEW high ranking boxers get knocked out for the full count as often as Cooper.. His chin was as notoriously weak as the skin around his eyes was easily nicked open. I don't see anyone of his size and skills putting anything on a boxer as good and as massive as Tyson Fury.. Cooper would be gone quickly versus the skillful Fury who was 60 odd pounds heavier.. Steve Cunningham was only knocked out ONCE in his life---by Tyson Fury---and NOT in England, in America with an American referee.. Fury knew he was going to knock Cunningham out because he only weighed 210.. He asked Steve if he could buy advertising on the bottom of his shoes. Cooper weighed 185 and had no chin.. He would be knocked FLAT!!!

But as a person I did like Henry Cooper very much.. He seemed to be an absolute PRINCE of a person.. As gracious and kind as they come.

There's a lot of mythology around that fight, but Ali was helped to his corner (illegal) and given sniffing salts (illegal).

BitPlayer wrote:

Kalan wrote:Clay was hurt by Cooper's left hook but got to his feet easily and was fully alert during the 1 minute rest between rounds... Dundee DIDN'T slit any glove and NO gloves were changed... It's a total BS story... If you watch the fight on youtube you'll find the rest period lasted 1 minute and Clay was fully alert and had no trouble finishing Cooper off in the next round.. The whole story is an urban myth perpetrated by Angie Dundee.

Cooper did NOT have a sound chin.. Henry was knocked down and out for the entire 10-count out several times... Including by Floyd Patterson.. Zora Folley.. Ingemar Johannson.. and Joe Bygraves.. Very FEW high ranking boxers get knocked out for the full count as often as Cooper.. His chin was as notoriously weak as the skin around his eyes was easily nicked open. I don't see anyone of his size and skills putting anything on a boxer as good and as massive as Tyson Fury.. Cooper would be gone quickly versus the skillful Fury who was 60 odd pounds heavier.. Steve Cunningham was only knocked out ONCE in his life---by Tyson Fury---and NOT in England, in America with an American referee.. Fury knew he was going to knock Cunningham out because he only weighed 210.. He asked Steve if he could buy advertising on the bottom of his shoes. Cooper weighed 185 and had no chin.. He would be knocked FLAT!!!

But as a person I did like Henry Cooper very much.. He seemed to be an absolute PRINCE of a person.. As gracious and kind as they come.

There's a lot of mythology around that fight, but Ali was helped to his corner (illegal) and given sniffing salts (illegal).

I'm not sure if the smelling salts thing was illegal at that time. It's illegal now though.

gilgamesh wrote:

BitPlayer wrote:

Kalan wrote:Clay was hurt by Cooper's left hook but got to his feet easily and was fully alert during the 1 minute rest between rounds... Dundee DIDN'T slit any glove and NO gloves were changed... It's a total BS story... If you watch the fight on youtube you'll find the rest period lasted 1 minute and Clay was fully alert and had no trouble finishing Cooper off in the next round.. The whole story is an urban myth perpetrated by Angie Dundee.

Cooper did NOT have a sound chin.. Henry was knocked down and out for the entire 10-count out several times... Including by Floyd Patterson.. Zora Folley.. Ingemar Johannson.. and Joe Bygraves.. Very FEW high ranking boxers get knocked out for the full count as often as Cooper.. His chin was as notoriously weak as the skin around his eyes was easily nicked open. I don't see anyone of his size and skills putting anything on a boxer as good and as massive as Tyson Fury.. Cooper would be gone quickly versus the skillful Fury who was 60 odd pounds heavier.. Steve Cunningham was only knocked out ONCE in his life---by Tyson Fury---and NOT in England, in America with an American referee.. Fury knew he was going to knock Cunningham out because he only weighed 210.. He asked Steve if he could buy advertising on the bottom of his shoes. Cooper weighed 185 and had no chin.. He would be knocked FLAT!!!

But as a person I did like Henry Cooper very much.. He seemed to be an absolute PRINCE of a person.. As gracious and kind as they come.

There's a lot of mythology around that fight, but Ali was helped to his corner (illegal) and given sniffing salts (illegal).

I'm not sure if the smelling salts thing was illegal at that time. It's illegal now though.

It was illegal at the time, in the terms of the rules of boxing I mean, atleast where the fight was held you weren't allowed to give fighters stimulents (other than water).

Good for his corner for getting away with one then

gilgamesh wrote:Good for his corner for getting away with one then

Yeah I think the mentality of anything to win is something that separates the elite from a lot of the decent. No wonder PEDs are so rampent in sport.

Badhusker wrote:

ValMar wrote:Badhusker, would you, please, make a top 5 list of most skillful current HWs.

You said Fury was the most skillful since Ali, so that list would be long ahead of Fury. As far as current heavys, that list is relatively short. Are you backing off your initial claim? If Fury was currently boxing, he might crack the top ten of Heavyweights, but he is not. His size is his best attribute, not his skills.

It's silly to cut up someone like that. A big part of being good is being able to use what you've got, be it size, power or speed. There have been quite a lot of fighters nearly as big or even bigger than Fury and they've mostly been cr@p. Fury is good because he is a big guy that moves well, and that combination makes him extremely hard to fight. Then he exaggarates that difficulty with being able to swith, and solid in fighting. The attributes play off of each other.

Badhusker wrote:Ali/Clay and Fury are light years apart in every department.

They're light years apart in getting hit with swings that you can see coming from across town... Wladimir Klitschko, a dominant Heavyweight Champion who ruled for almost 11 years couldn't find Fury with a decent punch.. Heavyweight Contender Dereck Chisora couldn't find Fury with one decent punch.. After all, Tyson Fury is an undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion of the World.. Only 3 of those exist and Fury is 1 of them.

In sharp contrast, 5'11" X 205 swinger Joe Frazier, who walked in wide open, caught Ali with a profusion of punches when he beat him in MSG including flooring Ali with a massive left hook that drop Ali hard, blew up his jaw like a cantaloupe, and cemented his victory....

210-pound Ken Norton walked in wide open and was KTFO 4 times. He caught Ali with blooping shots and shattered Ali's jaw, scoring a major upset...

Little Leon Stinks had only 7 fights and weighed 197. Leon was a massive underdog and beat on Ali like he owned him, scoring a major upset...

Henry Cooper weighed 185 and was super easy to hit... He decked Ali with a massive left hook that almost knocked him out. Ali said "Henry hit me so hard my kinfolk in Africa could feel the punch." ... That's really being hit...

190-pound Sonny Banks is another guy who deposited Ali on his ass with a left hook... And then of course Ali suffered massive punishment because of his lack of defensive skills, which was an extremely sad and unfortunate situation... A lot of that punishment lead to 5 losses for Ali... Fury has 0 losses.

I think Joshua would struggle to land a single glove on Fury

Badhusker wrote:I should of listed every top 15 from all the ABC's currently. Hell, I haven't even seen some of them fight.

BH I think you're being a little silly here. You're not really showing one ounce of objectivity, which is essentially undermining your points of view.

I don't think Fury is the best in the division, but is very skilled for a big man. I don't think skill holds as much value as the heavyweight division, say perhaps as punch power or resilience.