BoxRec

candyslim wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

candyslim wrote:
Like I said Saad, if it's bigger in the UK, it's a recent development, but historically boxing is way bigger in the states. Maybe the decline is due to the relative decline in economic necessity, add to that the decline in US dominance, especially in the heavyweight dvision. Make no mistake though, boxing might be more popular than ever in the UK, but it's still a minority sport, or at least not a primary sport, disregarding the fact that half the country has become a casual fan since the rise of Anthony Joshua, and of course everyone has recently acquired expert knowledge of boxing (that's irony by the way in case anybody was wondering).

I think you're on the right track with the point about population, and was it Ossy who made the point about the US being effectively a continent? I once heard it explained that the US is too large for the population to identify with, and in order to personalize it, the population need to sub-divide it ... I'm an Irish-American, a Mexican-American, a German-American (I've never heard the term British-American or English-American though probably because that was once the norm?)

Despite this professed lack of patriotic bias though, everyone is very familiar with that U.S.A. chant at sporting events.

It's been gradual and recent, I would never suggest that Boxing was bigger than Soccer. Maybe not Rugby either? What else? It's way down the line here. Yes, historically it was huge here but it hasn't been for a long time. I literally used to watch fights in the 90's with 20+ friends. Casuals I suppose, but they knew dozens of fighters. Camacho/Haugen was one, not exactly Joshua/Wlad. Not one of them even watches a fight on a whim.

Yes, many of our states are vast. Texas would be a very large country.

You'll hear USA chants. I'm not suggesting that nobody cheers that way, just not as wide spread or rabidly. Then again, you'll have championship fights here where a handful of tickets sold and casino's gave freebies to gamblers who couldn't care at all. You could also here a packed MSG sing Happy Birthday to Roberto Duran while he beat the poo out of hometown boy Davey Moore.

This, and all American Boxing issues, goes back to the premium cable and casino money overpaying fighters and letting promoters not work. Hall shows are largely a thing of the past in most cities. That's how you build a fan base. Let fans identify with you. Some guy from Baltimore fighting in Vegas is as likely to get me fired up as a girl from Baltimore on reality TV.

In answer to your question I would say in first place is football. In places 2nd through 6th I would also say football, there's nothing else comes close. After that I guess you have Rugby Union (there's also Rugby League which is very popular but almost exclusively in the north of the country) Cricket (summer only), Motorsport, Boxing, Golf, Tennis, Cycling ... it's really difficult to rank other sports, football is so dominant and it's tribal.

The UK is a tiny place geographically speaking but you notice enormous variation in the way people speak over very short distances, for example you have Ricky Hatton with his Mancunian i.e. Manchester accent yet thirty miles away in Liverpool you have the "Scouse" accent as demonstrated by Tony Bellew for example. Local rivalries can be fierce and it's not unusual for someone losing a bet to be made to wear a rival team's shirt as a forfeit, and that is a huge deal for some.

Those who align themselves to a successful team rather than supporting their local club are subjected to good-natured scorn at best, and known as "glory hunters". Sometimes that scorn isn't so good-natured. In the past football violence was a way of life for many young men and it still goes on today although far less frequently.

It makes it quite hard to understand the attitude that you don't necessarily root for your own or support your local fighters, although I must say I'm far more of a "citizen-of -the-world" as a fan of boxing than I am as a football fan so I kind of get it.

Spot on mate

Ossyrules wrote:

ValMar wrote:

candyslim wrote:
Like I said Saad, if it's bigger in the UK, it's a recent development, but historically boxing is way bigger in the states. Maybe the decline is due to the relative decline in economic necessity, add to that the decline in US dominance, especially in the heavyweight dvision. Make no mistake though, boxing might be more popular than ever in the UK, but it's still a minority sport, or at least not a primary sport, disregarding the fact that half the country has become a casual fan since the rise of Anthony Joshua, and of course everyone has recently acquired expert knowledge of boxing (that's irony by the way in case anybody was wondering).

I think you're on the right track with the point about population, and was it Ossy who made the point about the US being effectively a continent? I once heard it explained that the US is too large for the population to identify with, and in order to personalize it, the population need to sub-divide it ... I'm an Irish-American, a Mexican-American, a German-American (I've never heard the term British-American or English-American though probably because that was once the norm?)

Despite this professed lack of patriotic bias though, everyone is very familiar with that U.S.A. chant at sporting events.

Minority sport ? 90 000 ? What about "majority sports" ?

Believe me it's not a mainstream sport.

It is promoted well over here at the moment though. Probably at it's best since the 90s when we had eubank, Benn etc

Spend a fortnight in England and you'll see what the mainstream sports are

I wasn't claiming it was, just much bigger than it is here.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:

ValMar wrote: Minority sport ? 90 000 ? What about "majority sports" ?

Believe me it's not a mainstream sport.

It is promoted well over here at the moment though. Probably at it's best since the 90s when we had eubank, Benn etc

Spend a fortnight in England and you'll see what the mainstream sports are

I wasn't claiming it was, just much bigger than it is here.

This was to valmar

I responded to the wrong post. Go Burnett!

Ossyrules wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:
Believe me it's not a mainstream sport.

It is promoted well over here at the moment though. Probably at it's best since the 90s when we had eubank, Benn etc

Spend a fortnight in England and you'll see what the mainstream sports are

I wasn't claiming it was, just much bigger than it is here.

This was to valmar

I know (better to say - I had known) a lot about English football. Here, on Balkan, there are so many supporters of English teams. My good friend is hard-core fan of Arsenal (something like Nick Hornby).
I have a strong feeling that UK boxing will have a wonderful future. Neglect Joshua-Klitschko match, Froch and Groves had 80 000 attendance, it is almost unbelievable for me.

ValMar wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I wasn't claiming it was, just much bigger than it is here.

This was to valmar

I know (better to say - I had known) a lot about English football. Here, on Balkan, there are so many supporters of English teams. My good friend is hard-core fan of Arsenal (something like Nick Hornby).
I have a strong feeling that UK boxing will have a wonderful future. Neglect Joshua-Klitschko match, Froch and Groves had 80 000 attendance, it is almost unbelievable for me.

Yeah they really are special events. In fairness big stadiums fights aren't a new thing in England

Bellew did it at goodison park (Everton fc)
Calzaghe at the millennium (Welsh national)
Lewis vs Bruno at Cardiff arms (old Welsh national)
Benn vs eubank at old Trafford (Manchester United)
Kell Brooks just done bramall lane (sheffield united smaller stadium)

The British isles do love a fight. Be good to keep bringing the big names over like Wlad or top prospects like spence for quality boxing events

Ossyrules wrote:

ValMar wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:
This was to valmar

I know (better to say - I had known) a lot about English football. Here, on Balkan, there are so many supporters of English teams. My good friend is hard-core fan of Arsenal (something like Nick Hornby).
I have a strong feeling that UK boxing will have a wonderful future. Neglect Joshua-Klitschko match, Froch and Groves had 80 000 attendance, it is almost unbelievable for me.

Yeah they really are special events. In fairness big stadiums fights aren't a new thing in England

Bellew did it at goodison park (Everton fc)
Calzaghe at the millennium (Welsh national)
Lewis vs Bruno at Cardiff arms (old Welsh national)
Benn vs eubank at old Trafford (Manchester United)
Kell Brooks just done bramall lane (sheffield united smaller stadium)

The British isles do love a fight. Be good to keep bringing the big names over like Wlad or top prospects like spence for quality boxing events

Anyway, I like your (British) way considering boxing, generally speaking.

@Saad: This is completely off-topic sorry, but I've only ever been to NYC and Connecticut, but I have a real affinity/interest call it what you like in Baltimore based on - Saad you must be sick of hearing this, and I'm sure you know what's coming, that's right - my adoration for the absolute best tv show or film ever made or likely to ever be made. I refer of course to "The Wire" and I had the pleasure of telling David Simon exactly that to his face..

It's funny in one scene Englishman Dominic West, playing Bawlmer Cop McNulty, who is pretending to be an English tourist customer, in a raid on a whorehouse, is meant to call in the bust before/instead of hiding the salami, ( he's wearing a wire, his fellow cops are listening) and the code phrase they decide to use to call the cops in without causing the hookers to realize and make a run for it, is "Spot on" which is a phrase only an Englishman would use. What made me relate this is my fellow Brit, Ossyrules using that very phrase a few posts back.

McNulty being McNulty doesn't quite follow the plan in that he delays calling for back up until he's finished with the front up, if you catch my drift.

You gotta watch it people if you haven't already and if you have, you gotta watch it again.

Ossyrules wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:
Guess it's a sense of ownership when one of your own (no racism) makes it.

I just took issue with you calling it outrageous etc.

It IS outrageous.. It's terribly unfair to human beings.. Johnson was the last American black man to get a shot at the Heavyweight Title for a generation because people wanted the Heavyweight Champion to look like them. And yes it is racism and nationalism when athletes are denied opportunities because of their color or national origin.. or they're cheated out of fights that they won like Kovalev and Lomachenko.. Athletic competitions give people an opportunity to demonstrate fairness and sportsmanship.. They shouldn't be used as a rallying point for racism or nationalism.. There's a song that goes "We'll give a cheer for the Fatherland... Long may we reign supreme... And we will shout til the echos ring, for the glory of Germany" ... And another that goes "In Dixieland I'll take my stand -- I'll live and die in Dixie" ... Those feelings are sick. Your loyalty should be to God and not to a race, territory, ideology, country, gang, or cult.

Remember the movie "Saturday Night Fever" when John Travolta and his white partner won a dance competition and Travolta's character was extremely upset over being declared the winner??? He walked over and presented the prize and trophy to the real winners because he knew prejudice was the chief rational behind him and his partner being tabulated the winners... That's exactly the way human beings should feel.. You shouldn't covet something that's not really yours and belongs to somebody else.. We should try to demonstrates a strong sense of justice and fairness in everything we do... That's not the way of the present world we live in.. But it's a theme of many books, songs, movies and children's bedtime stories... One of Elvis Presley's favorite songs was on the right track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqbuus8QPU but instead of "where all my brothers walk hand in hand" it's sometime sung "where all God's children walk hand in hand."

Youve digressed about a mile off topic

In short there's wrong with rooting for one of your countrymen

It doesn't mean in the face of all reasonable evidence you should support them. I could live on the same street as broner and still think he's a cant and not support him.

It doesn't mean that you'll think with your head that the guy you want to win will win

I think you can root for your countryman. It's an understandable bias... But if his opponent gets mistreated by the officials, and and your countryman gets his ass kicked??? -- and his opponent still loses the decision??? NO!!! ... At that point you abandon your prejudice and bias and support the real winner.

You should support the guy who really won the fight -- regardless of who you supported before and during the fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I thought Basketball was huge in China?

It is HUGE in China...not just the NBA either. There are 300 MILLION Chinese who PLAY the sport.

http://blog.tutorming.com/expats/why-th ... owing-fast

Today, there are over 300 million people in China registered to play basketball, and the Chinese market has become the most important international market for the NBA...

Basketball was a popular sport in China even before the NBA arrived, but it is due to the NBA's shrewd marketing strategies that it has had tremendous commercial success in China. While other American companies such as Google, Amazon, and Facebook have failed to successfully enter the market, the NBA makes 150 million of its 5.5 billion dollar global revenue in China. In fact, it is largely due to China that basketball has become the most popular American sport internationally.

Kalan wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:

Kalan wrote:
It IS outrageous.. It's terribly unfair to human beings.. Johnson was the last American black man to get a shot at the Heavyweight Title for a generation because people wanted the Heavyweight Champion to look like them. And yes it is racism and nationalism when athletes are denied opportunities because of their color or national origin.. or they're cheated out of fights that they won like Kovalev and Lomachenko.. Athletic competitions give people an opportunity to demonstrate fairness and sportsmanship.. They shouldn't be used as a rallying point for racism or nationalism.. There's a song that goes "We'll give a cheer for the Fatherland... Long may we reign supreme... And we will shout til the echos ring, for the glory of Germany" ... And another that goes "In Dixieland I'll take my stand -- I'll live and die in Dixie" ... Those feelings are sick. Your loyalty should be to God and not to a race, territory, ideology, country, gang, or cult.

Remember the movie "Saturday Night Fever" when John Travolta and his white partner won a dance competition and Travolta's character was extremely upset over being declared the winner??? He walked over and presented the prize and trophy to the real winners because he knew prejudice was the chief rational behind him and his partner being tabulated the winners... That's exactly the way human beings should feel.. You shouldn't covet something that's not really yours and belongs to somebody else.. We should try to demonstrates a strong sense of justice and fairness in everything we do... That's not the way of the present world we live in.. But it's a theme of many books, songs, movies and children's bedtime stories... One of Elvis Presley's favorite songs was on the right track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqbuus8QPU but instead of "where all my brothers walk hand in hand" it's sometime sung "where all God's children walk hand in hand."

Youve digressed about a mile off topic

In short there's wrong with rooting for one of your countrymen

It doesn't mean in the face of all reasonable evidence you should support them. I could live on the same street as broner and still think he's a cant and not support him.

It doesn't mean that you'll think with your head that the guy you want to win will win

I think you can root for your countryman. It's an understandable bias... But if his opponent gets mistreated by the officials, and and your countryman gets his ass kicked??? -- and his opponent still loses the decision??? NO!!! ... At that point you abandon your prejudice and bias and support the real winner.

You should support the guy who really won the fight -- regardless of who you supported before and during the fight.

I don't agree with unfair decisions at all

You should watch the post fight interview of Richie Woodhall (WBC super middleweight champ) vs challenger Glenn Catley. Honesty of the highest order

Best Coast wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I thought Basketball was huge in China?

It is HUGE in China...not just the NBA either. There are 300 MILLION Chinese who PLAY the sport.

http://blog.tutorming.com/expats/why-th ... owing-fast

Today, there are over 300 million people in China registered to play basketball, and the Chinese market has become the most important international market for the NBA...

Basketball was a popular sport in China even before the NBA arrived, but it is due to the NBA's shrewd marketing strategies that it has had tremendous commercial success in China. While other American companies such as Google, Amazon, and Facebook have failed to successfully enter the market, the NBA makes 150 million of its 5.5 billion dollar global revenue in China. In fact, it is largely due to China that basketball has become the most popular American sport internationally.

Several years ago during a Jordan/Ali who was more famous thread I found something stating that Jordan had beat Mao in a poll for the most influential person in China. I don't care where you're from, Nike's are probably coveted.

candyslim wrote:we could invent a new sport because we are pretty good at that, or if we're feeling lazy take a sport played exclusively by school-girls in another country, change it just enough so you can get away with re-naming it, and re-brand it as a sport for men

Newly invented sports are trying to gain traction all the time... Like "Underwater Hockey"

One of the newest sports that's getting some interest is Bossaball... Trampoline/Volleyball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2jiZ3ByCyY

I had no idea basketball was so huge in China. I've learnt something.

They do say that Mandarin is spoken by more people than English, which some might say makes it the most obvious second language to learn, but I'd argue English, Spanish and a number of other languages besides, are more useful unless you plan on doing a lot of business / spending a lot of time in China.

I'm not putting down basketball, those numbers are fiercely impressive, but I do think the measure of a sport is how many countries play it as one of their core sports, and how competitive their top club teams and their national team are at that sport.

I would be really thankful if some of American explain me (generally, of course) some things about average US fans.
- Does average white American boxing fan root for Afro-American fighter (decent, devoted like Spence) against let us say white British fighter ?
-Does average Latino American boxing fan make difference between Mexican and let us say Nicaraguan fighter, and does he root for white American or Afro-American against Spanish or German fighter ?
-Are there any American fighters accepted from the majority of American fans ?
-Who is the most popular foreign boxer in USA ?

Thanks in advance !

The most popular boxers in the USA are canelo, Pacquiao, cotto & ggg.

The first time Joshua fights in the United States he'll load a ballpark... Against Wilder.. Klitscko.. Ortiz.. Parker.. any top Heavyweight, it doesn't matter.

The US fans are hungry for a great Heavyweight... It's been a long time.

candyslim wrote:@Saad: This is completely off-topic sorry, but I've only ever been to NYC and Connecticut, but I have a real affinity/interest call it what you like in Baltimore based on - Saad you must be sick of hearing this, and I'm sure you know what's coming, that's right - my adoration for the absolute best tv show or film ever made or likely to ever be made. I refer of course to "The Wire" and I had the pleasure of telling David Simon exactly that to his face..

It's funny in one scene Englishman Dominic West, playing Bawlmer Cop McNulty, who is pretending to be an English tourist customer, in a raid on a whorehouse, is meant to call in the bust before/instead of hiding the salami, ( he's wearing a wire, his fellow cops are listening) and the code phrase they decide to use to call the cops in without causing the hookers to realize and make a run for it, is "Spot on" which is a phrase only an Englishman would use. What made me relate this is my fellow Brit, Ossyrules using that very phrase a few posts back.

McNulty being McNulty doesn't quite follow the plan in that he delays calling for back up until he's finished with the front up, if you catch my drift.

You gotta watch it people if you haven't already and if you have, you gotta watch it again.

The Wire is the best television ever made (except season 2)

Kalan wrote:The first time Joshua fights in the United States he'll load a ballpark... Against Wilder.. Klitscko.. Ortiz.. Parker.. any top Heavyweight, it doesn't matter.

The US fans are hungry for a great Heavyweight... It's been a long time.

US fans are hungry for exciting fighters in general, boxers like Spence. There are too few of those.

candyslim wrote:@Saad: This is completely off-topic sorry, but I've only ever been to NYC and Connecticut, but I have a real affinity/interest call it what you like in Baltimore based on - Saad you must be sick of hearing this, and I'm sure you know what's coming, that's right - my adoration for the absolute best tv show or film ever made or likely to ever be made. I refer of course to "The Wire" and I had the pleasure of telling David Simon exactly that to his face..

It's funny in one scene Englishman Dominic West, playing Bawlmer Cop McNulty, who is pretending to be an English tourist customer, in a raid on a whorehouse, is meant to call in the bust before/instead of hiding the salami, ( he's wearing a wire, his fellow cops are listening) and the code phrase they decide to use to call the cops in without causing the hookers to realize and make a run for it, is "Spot on" which is a phrase only an Englishman would use. What made me relate this is my fellow Brit, Ossyrules using that very phrase a few posts back.

McNulty being McNulty doesn't quite follow the plan in that he delays calling for back up until he's finished with the front up, if you catch my drift.

You gotta watch it people if you haven't already and if you have, you gotta watch it again.

Fantastic show, spot on(we say that too), I grew up near the main area in season one. I've bought drugs as an adult right by the market McNulty is trailing stringer at.

ValMar wrote:I would be really thankful if some of American explain me (generally, of course) some things about average US fans.
- Does average white American boxing fan root for Afro-American fighter (decent, devoted like Spence) against let us say white British fighter ?
-Does average Latino American boxing fan make difference between Mexican and let us say Nicaraguan fighter, and does he root for white American or Afro-American against Spanish or German fighter ?
-Are there any American fighters accepted from the majority of American fans ?
-Who is the most popular foreign boxer in USA ?

Thanks in advance !

As a long-time boxing fan who happens to be white, I generally root for the black American fighter over ANY foreign fighter, be they black, white, Latino or Asian. Growing up, most of my favorite athletes were black, especially in boxing because there have always been more good black fighters than white ones. There are a lot of Latino American fighters these days and I root for most of them over foreign fighters too. The only black fighters I've rooted against are thugs like Tyson. Mayweather has kind of turned thuggish too but I still have a bias for him because I interviewed him twice early in his career. I was still glad to see him do jail time after beating down his "baby mama" and the time behind bars seemed to quell his domestic violence problems.

All though I didnt grow up near the Mexican border I now live 8 miles away and most of my boxing buddies now are Mexican/Mex-American. Mexican fans root for Mexican fighters and have no loyalty to other Latino fighters, be they Puerto RIcan, Dominican, Nicaraguan, etc. As the 2 most common Latino nations, Mexican & Puerto Rican fighters tend to have a more natural rivalry than other Latino boxers.

Among white boxing fans, 90+% probably have some favorite black fighters (Holyfield, Leonard, etc) or they wouldnt follow a sport like boxing that traditionally has had so many good black fighters. White fight fans who dont like black or Latino fighters seem to gravitate more to UFC/MMA because there are a lot more white stars there than in boxing. I've met very few racist boxing fans, even though there is one who posts here. But he's Canadian not American.

THE most popular foreign fighter in the US is clearly Manny Pacquiao. He's got lots of white, black and Latino fans to go along with Asian-American fans. As his talent fades with age his popularity is gradually fading too, but he is still THE most popular foreign fighter in America (quite possibly of ALL TIME)!!

There are over 35 million Mexican-Americans living in the US (over 10% of US population) and more Mexicans like boxing than just about any other ethnic group. There is no reason NOT count Americans of Mexican descent (including half-white/half-Mexican) so I would have to say the second most popular foreign fighter in US after Pac is probably Canelo Alvarez.

After that I would say GGG is very popular in the US too. Admired especially by Mexican fans but also lots of white & black American fans to because of his exciting style.

Kalan wrote:The first time Joshua fights in the United States he'll load a ballpark... Against Wilder.. Klitscko.. Ortiz.. Parker.. any top Heavyweight, it doesn't matter.

The US fans are hungry for a great Heavyweight... It's been a long time.

It has been a long time but I beg to differ on Joshua's ability to pack out a ballpark in the US. Neither Lennox Lewis or the Klitschkos ever packed out a ballpark and the Klitschkos were such a mediocre draw that they eventually went back to Europe for most of their late careers.

Only time will tell but IMO the only way Anthony Joshua draws over 30,000 in America is if he fights Wilder in his hometown of Tuscaloosa, Alabama (where Crimson Tide plays their football games in a 100K stadium). Even then they would probably get only 40,000, which is less than half of capacity.

Short of that, the only way Joshua exceeds 30,000 in the US is if he brings 20,000 British fans with him like Ricky Hatton used to do!!

The Klitschkos were good US draws (consistently doing 1m+ on TV and 10-20k crowds), but they were excellent draws in Europe.

As for AJ, he's not a US star at all. His first two US broadcast fights did poor numbers, and the Wlad rating wasn't far off what Klitschko has done in the US against people like Bryant Jennings. Wlad also has a much bigger US profile than most guys still out there for AJ to fight.

Of course, AJ can build his American profile, but he's already sure to make a killing boxing in the UK, where there is a lot more interest in the sport at the moment.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

candyslim wrote:@Saad: This is completely off-topic sorry, but I've only ever been to NYC and Connecticut, but I have a real affinity/interest call it what you like in Baltimore based on - Saad you must be sick of hearing this, and I'm sure you know what's coming, that's right - my adoration for the absolute best tv show or film ever made or likely to ever be made. I refer of course to "The Wire" and I had the pleasure of telling David Simon exactly that to his face..

It's funny in one scene Englishman Dominic West, playing Bawlmer Cop McNulty, who is pretending to be an English tourist customer, in a raid on a whorehouse, is meant to call in the bust before/instead of hiding the salami, ( he's wearing a wire, his fellow cops are listening) and the code phrase they decide to use to call the cops in without causing the hookers to realize and make a run for it, is "Spot on" which is a phrase only an Englishman would use. What made me relate this is my fellow Brit, Ossyrules using that very phrase a few posts back.

McNulty being McNulty doesn't quite follow the plan in that he delays calling for back up until he's finished with the front up, if you catch my drift.

You gotta watch it people if you haven't already and if you have, you gotta watch it again.

Fantastic show, spot on(we say that too), I grew up near the main area in season one. I've bought drugs as an adult right by the market McNulty is trailing stringer at.

Ssssshhhh! you don't know who's looking in I want to try those crabs ... you can keep the lake-trout.

@davie Season two was superb I thought, but I know a lot of fans see it as you do. I though 4 was the best and 5 while still excellent, was the weakest probably because Simon was told he had to restrict it to 10 episodes - it felt a bit rushed.

True, but comparatively those ratings were abysmal. Something like 8 times more Americans watched and knew Cornelius boza Edwards than gatti or the Klitschko's.