BoxRec

How many guys have won titles in two or more weight classes? There has to have well over 100 of them of them by now. elmer acts like we are counting a handful of them and can count them on our fingers.

Here is another point to bring up which will I am sure be over elmer's head:
A fighter can win a title at a lower weight class because the competition is not that good. Then he moves up to the next weight class where the competition happens to be better at that particular moment in time. So he is not able to win a title in the higher weight class even though he might actually be as good or even better in the higher weight class. Had he fought in a different era he may have been able to win it in two weight classes.
That is a major reason you don't have even more.

Broner has titles in 4 classes and his best opponent of the four was a sd over malignaggi.

I didn't think Broner had ever even held a title I thought of him as a contender.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic I think measuring level of competition is difficult. In Leonard's era Hearns, Leonard, and Duran seem to tower over their contemporaries and were relatively consistent. But this might merely be due to lack of competition in their era relative to other eras. There is no guarantee they will have the same results in another time.

Moreover, Hagler and Monzon are generally regarded as great middleweights despite the fact that they reigned in eras that are often regarded as being fairly weak. What great middleweight did Monzon or Hagler ever beat? Griffith and Benvenuti both appear to have been well past it when they faced Monzon. Would Monzon for example have done well in the late 50s and early 60s when he would have contended with Gene Fullmer, Henry Hank, Joey Giardello, Joey Giambra, a prime Emile Griffith, Luis Rodriguez, etc. Bennie Briscoe is regarded as one of Monzon's most formidable opponents yet Luis Rodriguez easily beat him twice yet Luis Rodriguez is never even rated as a top 10 middleweight in any list I have seen.

You can make a good case for Floyd Mayweather and Roy Jones Jr. being better than Duran although not the other guys.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑23 Nov 2017, 02:17 You can make a good case for Floyd Mayweather and Roy Jones Jr. being better than Duran although not the other guys.

Going up in weight? Yes. But, The Hands of Stone fought some extraordinary and exceptional boxers going up. I don't see that in Pretty Boy Floyd's nor Super Roy's record fighting someone exceptional to take their crown going up in weight. Duran at least beat Leonard when both were at their very best. Leonard beat Marvelous. But, was Marvelous at his very best, or he was ready to be taken? I think Marvelous' very best was from 1979-85. After that, he was not the same. Maybe the great Tommy Hearns' punches took a toll on him in that way they had.

The Ring Magazine all time welterweight rankings in the year 2008:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Kid Gavilan
4. Charley Burley
5. Sugar Ray Leonard

I got it like this:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Emile Griffith
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Sugar Ray Leonard


In May 1994, The Ring welterweight rankings of all time:

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard

And I can see why Leonard could never be #2. Even though welterweight was his best ever weight class, his stay at 147lbs was WAY TOO SHORT. The only TRUE WELTERWEIGHT HE BEAT was the great Thomas Hearns.

See folks. You can only fight what is in front of you. Benitez and Duran was like the greats Wilfredo Gomez (Duran's case) and Alexis Arguello (Benitez' case) challenging Duran for the lightweight crown. Duran didn't fight never in his pro boxing career a fighter that was below his weight class when he was lightweight champion. Other lightweight champions had that luxury of smaller men challenging them. But, some want to criticize his quality of opponents at lightweight. He could only fight what is in front of him.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 10:12

Kalan wrote: ↑11 Nov 2017, 17:55 Leonard never met anyone like Spence, Thurman, Brook, Napoles, Griffith, Walker, Trinidad, Robinson, or Forrest.. They would pepper Ray up with punches like Hearns did -- and they didn't have the weak and super skinny bod or soft chin to bail Ray out late in the fight.

The much smaller Duran beat Leonard when he was at his best... He handed Ray the rematch for free -- and was an old man in their 3rd match.

But I think Leonard could actually beat Robinson -- because Tommy Bell decked Robbie really hard and almost beat him... He wasn't real good.

Duran and Hearns are better than most of those guys. Hagler would wipe the floor with a lot of them.

The only thing Hagler would get is the living shitt knocked out of him. Too damned slow. That's why Mugabi and Leonard tagged him up.

Why do you think a rusty Welterweight was able to come off a 3-year-layoff and box up Hagler??? ... He could see how slow he was.

Kalan wrote: ↑24 Nov 2017, 03:18

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 10:12

Kalan wrote: ↑11 Nov 2017, 17:55 Leonard never met anyone like Spence, Thurman, Brook, Napoles, Griffith, Walker, Trinidad, Robinson, or Forrest.. They would pepper Ray up with punches like Hearns did -- and they didn't have the weak and super skinny bod or soft chin to bail Ray out late in the fight.

The much smaller Duran beat Leonard when he was at his best... He handed Ray the rematch for free -- and was an old man in their 3rd match.

But I think Leonard could actually beat Robinson -- because Tommy Bell decked Robbie really hard and almost beat him... He wasn't real good.

Duran and Hearns are better than most of those guys. Hagler would wipe the floor with a lot of them.

The only thing Hagler would get is the living shitt knocked out of him. Too damned slow. That's why Mugabi and Leonard tagged him up.

Why do you think a rusty Welterweight was able to come off a 3-year-layoff and box up Hagler??? ... He could see how slow he was.

Hagler too slow for the likes of Trinidad?

He's only seen mugabi and Leonard. Marvin was very fast, really one of the most complete fighters that ever lived.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑24 Nov 2017, 08:27
Hagler too slow for the likes of Trinidad? ...

Way too slow... Terry Norris (too fast for SRL) couldn't even qualify to fight Tito cuz he was KO'd by Keith Mullings ... knocked out by Julian Jackson ... knocked out by Simon Brown etc. He wasn't fast enough to slip their shots or hit them real good -- which is the only speed that counts -- not flashy assed Meldrick Taylor who got murdered by Norris.. Anyone can throw flashy combinations that have no power or leverage on them.

Yet a rusty Ray Leonard was able to put flurries of effective punches in the slow face of Marvin Hagler -- just as he saw slow assed John Mugabi doing... Norris took the super slow Mugabi out pronto (1st round) -- and gave Leonard an exceptionally speedy boxing lesson just for fun.

Kalan wrote: ↑24 Nov 2017, 16:24

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑24 Nov 2017, 08:27
Hagler too slow for the likes of Trinidad? ...

Way too slow... Terry Norris (too fast for SRL) couldn't even qualify to fight Tito cuz he was KO'd by Keith Mullings ... knocked out by Julian Jackson ... knocked out by Simon Brown etc. He wasn't fast enough to slip their shots or hit them real good -- which is the only speed that counts -- not flashy assed Meldrick Taylor who got murdered by Norris.. Anyone can throw flashy combinations that have no power or leverage on them.

Yet a rusty Ray Leonard was able to put flurries of effective punches in the slow face of Marvin Hagler -- just as he saw slow assed John Mugabi doing... Norris took the super slow Mugabi out pronto (1st round) -- and gave Leonard an exceptionally speedy boxing lesson just for fun.

We're not talking about all of the fighters you mentioned, we're talking about Hagler. Have you ever seen this guy fight?

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑25 Nov 2017, 02:53
We're not talking about all of the fighters you mentioned, we're talking about Hagler. Have you ever seen this guy fight?

I've seen Hagler fight one HELL of a lot MORE times than you have... For instance, I saw his pedestrian effort against Marcos Geraldo -- a 2nd rater who'd been knocked out 10 times BEFORE he fought Hagler... Marvin wasn't fast enough to hurt Geraldo or put him down.

I also saw his pedestrian effort against an old Benny Briscoe... Marv couldn't hurt Briscoe or put him down... But I saw Rodrigo Valdez knock a much younger and stronger Bennie Briscoe out with a crushing left hook... That was a nice KO shot from a good, fast Middleweight... Hag couldn't deliver it... Go to 23:20 of this video to see RV rip into Briscoe's iron chin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9_Evj0iY0g

Of course, speedy Terry Norris decked Ray Leonard twice while giving him free a boxing lesson... Marv wasn't speedy enough to do that.

Napoles in particular is being underrated.

Underrated? Well, take a look at the key fights:

Leonard beat Duran, Benitez, and Hearns. Lost to Duran
Armstrong beat Ross. Lost to Zivic twice.
Gavilan beat Basilo and Graham. Lost to Robinson (obviously not embarrassing. ) Lost to Lester Felton and Johnny Saxton.
Griffith beat Rodriguez. Lost to Paret. Past his best. lost to Napoles.
Napoles beat a past his best Griffith. Lost to Backus.

Clearly Napoles doesn't deserve to be as high as Leonard and Robinson. Should he be ahead of people like Griffith, Gavilan, and Armstrong? That is worth debating about. How much credit he deserves for beat Griffith would be a huge factor.

I scored the bout for Griffith 9 to 6. I think you will find the vast majority of people feel he beat Paret.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Nov 2017, 17:44 Napoles beat a past his best Griffith. Lost to Backus.

Beat Grifith and beat Backus very easily... Lost to Backus on cuts -- which can happen to anybody.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Nov 2017, 17:44 Underrated? Well, take a look at the key fights:

Leonard beat Duran, Benitez, and Hearns. Lost to Duran
Armstrong beat Ross. Lost to Zivic twice.
Gavilan beat Basilo and Graham. Lost to Robinson (obviously not embarrassing. ) Lost to Lester Felton and Johnny Saxton.
Griffith beat Rodriguez. Lost to Paret. Past his best. lost to Napoles.
Napoles beat a past his best Griffith. Lost to Backus.

Clearly Napoles doesn't deserve to be as high as Leonard and Robinson. Should he be ahead of people like Griffith, Gavilan, and Armstrong? That is worth debating about. How much credit he deserves for beat Griffith would be a huge factor.

The great Kid Gavilan also beat the greats Ike Williams and Beau Jack in welterweight bouts.

The great Henry Armstrong beat Baby Arizmendi at welterweight. He also beat Pedro Montanez

Beating Williams, jack, basilio and Graham mean nothing if you're not a beast, gold medal winner and have a long title reign against mostly poor opposition.

How can Leonard be a beast? according to elmer, Leonard only beat 1 true welterweight in his entrie career? (Though boxrec has him with 22 wins over welterweights)

Love how elmer now wants to count Gavilan's wins Beau Jack and Williams as wins over welterweights, and Armstrong's over Montanez and Arizmendi, but doesn't want to count Leonard's wins over Duran and Benitez because somehow Duran and Benitez were not "true" welterweights!

Guess we have to add Gavilan's loss to Williams as well.
Also have add Gavilan's draws with legends like Gene Burton and Buster Tyler.

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elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 00:21

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Nov 2017, 17:44 Underrated? Well, take a look at the key fights:

Leonard beat Duran, Benitez, and Hearns. Lost to Duran
Armstrong beat Ross. Lost to Zivic twice.
Gavilan beat Basilo and Graham. Lost to Robinson (obviously not embarrassing. ) Lost to Lester Felton and Johnny Saxton.
Griffith beat Rodriguez. Lost to Paret. Past his best. lost to Napoles.
Napoles beat a past his best Griffith. Lost to Backus.

Clearly Napoles doesn't deserve to be as high as Leonard and Robinson. Should he be ahead of people like Griffith, Gavilan, and Armstrong? That is worth debating about. How much credit he deserves for beat Griffith would be a huge factor.

The great Kid Gavilan also beat the greats Ike Williams and Beau Jack in welterweight bouts.

The great Henry Armstrong beat Baby Arizmendi at welterweight. He also beat Pedro Montanez

I love it... Today fighters get jumped on for any flagrant robbery loss -- or even for getting decked or hit with a hard punch in fights they won. Gavilan lost 30 fights - many to mediocre ham-an-eggers.. He lost twice to Doug Ratford who had a winning ratio of 51%.. He lost to Ike Williams (Williams was a Lightweight at the time and decked Gavilan hard) and lost to Ratford the same year he lost to Robinson.

Gavilan won 9 of 13 fights that year (1948) and was close to his peak... That sounds like a great many fights, but none of those fights were scheduled for more than 10 rounds.. To a highly skilled and well conditioned fighter who rarely gets hit with solid punches, 10 rounds is a breeze.. You often spar 10 rounds. There's not a lot of difference except the gloves are smaller. You actually train for 2 hours in your regular gym workout, besides roadwork and all the rest of your training -- while a 10-rounder is over in 39 minutes including the rest periods.

In fact, training is a lot harder than the fight itself. This is something Archie Moore pointed out when he criticized other boxers for not fighting. "You have to box a lot of rounds anyway to get ready for a fight -- so why not get paid for it? You hear fighters complain that nobody will fight them, but most boxers are free agents. You can fight anybody, anywhere in the world -- so if one guy won't fight you try the next one."

Losses didn't mean as much in those days.. It was like baseball, football, or basketball -- lose one fight and win the next one.. With social media, YouTube, and a zillion websites, everyone has an opinion these days.. Boxers are reluctant to take risky fights.. You stay unbeaten and sooner or later you're making millions of dollars a fight.. You start losing and your income drops by 95% even if you're fighting more.

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 19:10

drunkenpiper36 wrote: ↑19 Nov 2017, 15:54 I can't see how the Norris and Camacho fights are even relevant when rating Leonard. He was beyond shot and inactive at that point.. Especially for the Camacho meeting. And the Hearns rematch shouldn't really be used against him either. Again he had fought only two times in some five years and was fighting at a weight which better suited Hearns yet still gave him a hell of a good run.

Try to put your adulation for Leonard to one side for a moment.

1. Do you believe for one minute that the Hagler Leonard finally found the courage to fight in 87, was anything like the Hagler, from January 81, until May 83. THAT LEONARD KEPT FUKKKING TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING?

2. How do you think Leonard would have got on, if he HAD have found the guts to get in with that version of Hagler? ( Please spare the detached retina excuse garbage, because the dates of the operations, and the clearance to fight again dates are a matter of public record. )

It is a similar situation to Clay / Liston. The difference being Clay actually had the guts to get in with " the big ugly bear " at the time he was gobbing off about him, whereas Leonard didn't.

Try and put adulation for Hagler to one side for a moment as I never said a word about him in that post.

So did Leonard have great business savvy??? ... And an incredibly astute boxing brain to recognize ahead of others that Hagler was slipping???

And wasn't Leonard incredibly clever to give up the Middleweight Title when he did??? ... and target the unknown Donny Lalonde by offering him millions to boil down to 168??? ... and have his WBC mates authorize SRL winning 2 Division Titles in ONE NIGHT!!! ... After all, Andre Dawson wasn't allowed to grab Chad Dawson's Light Heavyweight Title when he beat him... James Toney wasn't allowed to claim Iran Barkley's Light Heavyweight Title... Leonard had an incredible amount of business pull -- possibly more than Mayweather.

Leonard was allowed to use his 168-pound title as a "De facto Middleweight Title" in title defenses against -- would you guess??? Roberto Duran and Tommy Hearns... Then as pressure mounted for Leonard to face the top Middleweights he escaped to 154.

That would have been another brilliantly savvy move -- had he beaten Norris -- but not everything is always going to work 100% to plan.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 11:57 How can Leonard be a beast? according to elmer, Leonard only beat 1 true welterweight in his entrie career? (Though boxrec has him with 22 wins over welterweights)

Love how elmer now wants to count Gavilan's wins Beau Jack and Williams as wins over welterweights, and Armstrong's over Montanez and Arizmendi, but doesn't want to count Leonard's wins over Duran and Benitez because somehow Duran and Benitez were not "true" welterweights!

Guess we have to add Gavilan's loss to Williams as well.
Also have add Gavilan's draws with legends like Gene Burton and Buster Tyler.

Explain this to me Ambling All? This is the all time welterweight rankings from The Ring Magazine in 2008:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Kid Gavilan
4. Charley Burley
5. Sugar Ray Leonard.

I got it like this:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Emile Griffith
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Sugar Ray Leonard

Leonard is not number#2 according to The Bible of Boxing.

Why? Maybe because he lost the title to a lightweight?

Or that the only true welterweight he beat was Tommy Hearns?

The Ring must don't like Leonard?

Robinson and Armstrong don't deserve to be ranked anywhere close to the top.

Who's the best boxer-puncher Robinson ever fought??? Archie Moore fought Ezzard Charles, Charlie Burley, Muhammad Ali, Floyd Patterson, Lloyd Marshall, Holman Williams, Harold Johnson, Teddy Yarosz and other skilled guys.. Moore defeated and Robinson lost to Joey Maxim---a very soft puncher and mediocre technician.. SRR beat nobody who was highly skilled.

Who's the best boxer-puncher Armstrong ever fought??? The best he fought were Beau Jack and Ray Robinson. He looked horseshitt against both.. What I saw was a guy who fouled 10 times a minute and needed to wear a glove on his head and pads on his forearms. He got away with murder.