SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Abradolf Lincler]

So, what's the deal? Is Kalan the forum stooge these days?

[Kalan]

You're a hateful jackass lincler... You don't know what you're talking about and you're a Klitschko hater...

Ali DID HOLD when he was YOUNG.. Check Ali's first first fight with Chuvalo because he held more than Wladimir did in the Povetkin fight... He didn't do it that well because he took a lot of body punishment.. A young Wlad didn't hold as much.

At first the Klitschko's argued with Steward about holding as an inside strategy... Vitali told Steward, "Holding is a foul.. One must not hold under Queensberry Rules" ... Steward said, "If they called holding, Muhammad Ali never would have won a fight.. Short guys have the advantage on the inside so tie them up... The referee separates you and you're back outside."

The strategy makes a certain amount of sense for tall guys - based on what referees have been doing for decades... However guys like Salvador Sanchez didn't hold a lot... He fought shorter guys like Wilfredo Gomez like crazy on the inside ... and it does make for a Hell of lot more exciting fights when a tall boxer boxer fights his ass off on the inside like Sanchez did.. Steward was a master of the outside game but his knowledge of infighting was limited.

[MrGuy]

You're a hateful jackass lincler... You don't know what you're talking about and you're a Klitschko hater...

Ali DID HOLD when he was YOUNG.. Check Ali's first first fight with Chuvalo because he held more than Wladimir did in the Povetkin fight... He didn't do it that well because he took a lot of body punishment.. A young Wlad didn't hold as much.

At first the Klitschko's argued with Steward about holding as an inside strategy... Vitali told Steward, "Holding is a foul.. One must not hold under Queensberry Rules" ... Steward said, "If they called holding, Muhammad Ali never would have won a fight.. Short guys have the advantage on the inside so tie them up... The referee separates you and you're back outside."

The strategy makes a certain amount of sense for tall guys - based on what referees have been doing for decades... However guys like Salvador Sanchez didn't hold a lot... He fought shorter guys like Wilfredo Gomez like crazy on the inside ... and it does make for a Hell of lot more exciting fights when a tall boxer boxer fights his ass off on the inside like Sanchez did.. Steward was a master of the outside game but his knowledge of infighting was limited.

I never said their wasn't a single fight in his prime where he didn't clinch a good deal. It was implied as a general rule of thumb, for the most part he didn't. You fully understand this, and know generally "prime" Wlad made a living out of it, and took it to ridiculous levels. Take away the clinch and he's nothing.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have seen the first two Bowe-Holyfield fights and the first Golota-Bowe fight. I saw part of the rematch but not the whole fight. I am not sure what Golota did better than Holyfield (possibly better defensively). But, for whatever reason he was much more effective than Holyfield was at least against Bowe. Obviously, Holyfield was overall the better fighter.

Well no Golota was not more effective than Holyfield. Holyfield won one of the fights and was went the distance in a competitive fight in the first fight. Golota was 0-2 vs Bowe and failed to go the distance both times. Results actually matter.

No Golota wasn't better defensively. Golota had almost no defense.

Why did Golota do as well as he did? Basically two things.
1. Bowe simply didn't fight as well against Golota as he did against Holyfield. Chalk it up up to preparation, training whatever. He was a better fighter against Holyfield.
2. Golota hit Bowe low numerous times in both of their fights. This played a huge role in the fight. This helped him be more effective and Bowe less effective. Makes it a lot harder to mount an offense after you have been low so many times. There is a reason that is against the rules. It also got him disqualified. Holyfield did not do that.

You ought to be able to get a rough idea how good Bowe from watching the Holyfield fights. There are several other fights of his on youtube as well. He had a good jab, a lot of power, a good chin, a lot of heart. He was a great inside fighter, especially for a big man. He wasn't perfect, nobody was. However he was very good.

[Kalan]

You ought to be able to get a rough idea how good Bowe from watching the Holyfield fights.

Bowe got knocked down with a loaded left hook by Holyfield (who couldn't follow up because of a heart condition), and Riddick certainly got hit upside the head a lot in those 3 fights... That DOESN'T t tell you how Bowe would do if he were facing an extremely mobile great athlete, great boxer, and great puncher who weighed 230 to 250 and stood 6'3" to 6'6". Holyfield came into the 1st Bowe fight at 205.. Holyfield admitted this was "too light" for him to be effective at Heavyweight... In the rematch Holyfield added 12 pounds of muscle and beat the much bigger Bowe.

Bowe performed poorly against a big man who was a very clumsy boxer and mediocre puncher in Andrew Golota...

Golota was a mentally incompetent, inept swinger who men like Lamon Brewster and Lennox Lewis hammered into the canvas as soon as the sound of the opening bell faded away... You couldn't miss Golota with a swing if you were an exceptional great puncher... The problem with Bowe is, he kept getting punched in his wide open face ... so it was harder for him to set up his ponderous punches to hit the wide open target.

Bowe got knocked down several times by mental case Golota and pretty much got beaten to trash... What would a more skilled, intelligent, controlled, faster, slicker, and more mentally stable big man do to Bowe??? .... Probably FLATTEN him.

[Cojimar 1946]

In the first fight the first low blow by Golota that seems to impact Bowe occurs late in the fourth round. Prior to that point Golota appeared to be winning. Clearly we can't blame the low blows for Bowe being outclassed prior to that point.

[oogiebe]

In the first fight the first low blow by Golota that seems to impact Bowe occurs late in the fourth round. Prior to that point Golota appeared to be winning. Clearly we can't blame the low blows for Bowe being outclassed prior to that point.

That is what I say. And said. Bowe got a whuppin'.

[Kalan]

There appears to be broad agreement.

[Cojimar 1946]

As far as Ruddock goes I think there are plenty of guys today who would be heavily favored to beat everyone Ruddock beat regardless of whether or not you think this is a good era given his best wins by and large were guys who were well-past it and no longer even world class. There is certainly nothing in his resume of wins that Parker or Whyte wouldn't be expected to prevail against.

Also, it's not at all clear how much Smith had left when he faced Ruddock. He was coming off a loss to Adilson Rodriguez and never scored a notable win again. He also weighed in at 249 pounds which is a good 20 pounds over his best weight. This suggests he was not in good physical shape yet he still managed to deck Ruddock in the early rounds and make a fight of things.

[oogiebe]

Oogiedoogey says comparing Douglas to Klitchko (Vitali) is just plain silly.

[MrGuy]

As far as Ruddock goes I think there are plenty of guys today who would be heavily favored to beat everyone Ruddock beat regardless of whether or not you think this is a good era given his best wins by and large were guys who were well-past it and no longer even world class. There is certainly nothing in his resume of wins that Parker or Whyte wouldn't be expected to prevail against.

Also, it's not at all clear how much Smith had left when he faced Ruddock. He was coming off a loss to Adilson Rodriguez and never scored a notable win again. He also weighed in at 249 pounds which is a good 20 pounds over his best weight. This suggests he was not in good physical shape yet he still managed to deck Ruddock in the early rounds and make a fight of things.

I agree with virtually all of that. His reputation was based on the Tyson fights. But you would be hard pressed to find many today, who took what he did and dished out what he did against Tyson.

[oogiebe]

Oogiedoogey says comparing Douglas to Klitchko (Vitali) is just plain silly.

That has less than NOTHING to do with Kolons twisted logic oogie.

He will give Vitali ( or anyone else named Klitschko for that matter ) a free pass for any defeats they might have suffered, but will hold the likes of Douglas accountable for losing in similar circumstances. i' e'. quitting.

Well that doesn't sound equitable, but Vitali's loss to Byrd was (almost) excusable. His corner (more he) made the decision not to further aggravate the injury (wasn't like Cerdan and LaMotta where Cerdan's hurt shoulder would put him at peril where against Byrd, I was suspicious at the time), but...a loss is a loss. Douglas was as talented as anyone. Just couldn't keep his head in the game. Wlad has no excuses for his losses. Just his chin. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Wanna compare...make it even.

[Kalan]

Ruddock was in over his head against Lennox Lewis... He was wide open and nearly got his head torn off.

I believe that scared the shitt outta Bowe....who as almost as hittable as Ruddock... Everybody knew Lewis could hit.

[oogiebe]

Ruddock was in over his head against Lennox Lewis... He was wide open and nearly got his head torn off.

I believe that scared the shitt outta Bowe....who as almost as hittable as Ruddock... Everybody knew Lewis could hit.

I was already a Lewis fan when he fought Ruddock. I just couldn't see a one-handed fighter beat Lewis, even at that time. Ruddock got notoriety for losing to Tyson and Tyson saying "he hit as hard as a mule kicks." One dimensional at best. However; I screamed my ass off with the first knockdown as I was "fan nervous" for Lennox.

[Kalan]

I figured the fight was over before it started... Quick KO for Lewis.

If one fighter has a big right hand and the other loads left hooks -- that fight is OVER!!! .... Same with Foreman-Frazier... Some people thought Quarry was going to nail Frazier with the right... HELL no... He had no size or strength and you need it.

[Ambling Alp II]

In the first fight the first low blow by Golota that seems to impact Bowe occurs late in the fourth round. Prior to that point Golota appeared to be winning. Clearly we can't blame the low blows for Bowe being outclassed prior to that point.

That is what I say. And said. Bowe got a whuppin'.

Bowe won the fight. So no, that is not a whuppin. Winning is what counts the most.

[Ambling Alp II]

As far as Ruddock goes I think there are plenty of guys today who would be heavily favored to beat everyone Ruddock beat regardless of whether or not you think this is a good era given his best wins by and large were guys who were well-past it and no longer even world class. There is certainly nothing in his resume of wins that Parker or Whyte wouldn't be expected to prevail against.

Also, it's not at all clear how much Smith had left when he faced Ruddock. He was coming off a loss to Adilson Rodriguez and never scored a notable win again. He also weighed in at 249 pounds which is a good 20 pounds over his best weight. This suggests he was not in good physical shape yet he still managed to deck Ruddock in the early rounds and make a fight of things.

There are wins on the resume of Parker and Whyte that are worth mentioning. I will take a knockout win over Smith at that stage over anything they had beat. With your obsession of size Smith should be better being heavier. Suddenly size doesn't seem to mean much.
Ruddock knocked Dokes out cold. Dokes gave a prime Holyfield a tough fight the year before. Certainly better than anyone Parker or Whyte have beat.
Ruddick gave Tyson trouble twice. No way in hell somebody like Whyte does that.
Unlike every fighter around today, (who are mostly afraid of each other) Ruddock was tested.
Lewis blew Ruddock out. Anyway you slice it, that was big win for Lewis.

[oogiebe]

In the first fight the first low blow by Golota that seems to impact Bowe occurs late in the fourth round. Prior to that point Golota appeared to be winning. Clearly we can't blame the low blows for Bowe being outclassed prior to that point.

That is what I say. And said. Bowe got a whuppin'.

Bowe won the fight. So no, that is not a whuppin. Winning is what counts the most.

IDK, it didn't do Bowe much good. He got pummeled in the rematch as well. We all know the fouls got him the win. When tearing down a fight, what happens in the ring gets discussed, as well as the outcome such as this. (did that make sense?).

[Cojimar 1946]

There's no indication Smith had much less at this stage. The Rodriguez debacle certainly points to him not having much left. The fact that he was also out of shape on top of everything else also makes the win less impressive. I would guess that Smith's prime was 1984 to 1987. By 1989 he was probably still in the top 20 though no longer the top 10. His best performances were in the 220s and lower 230s. Dokes likewise has no notable wins following the Ruddock fight and his performance against Holyfield was more than a year earlier. He was also at 225 against Holyfield and 240 against Ruddock.

I would say Parker's wins over Ruiz jr. and Takam are better than Ruddock's over Dokes or Smith given the career stage of these opponents.

[Kalan]

I will take a knockout win over Smith at that stage over anything they had beat. With your obsession of size Smith should be better being heavier. Suddenly size doesn't seem to mean much.
Ruddock knocked Dokes out cold. Dokes gave a prime Holyfield a tough fight the year before. Certainly better than anyone Parker or Whyte have beat.
Ruddick gave Tyson trouble twice. No way in hell somebody like Whyte does that.

Dillian Whyte would smash crackhead Dokes... He's too big, tall, strong, fast, and skilled for the little dopehead.

Ruddick gave Mike Tyson trouble but didn't give Lennox Lewis any trouble... Aside from being a lot bigger, taller, and stronger than Iron Mike, Lewis was way more skilled, dedicated and absolutely DOMINATED the younger Tyson.

James Smith was big and slow with 2nd rate skills... You talk about size as if it's decisive... Size is weight.. How solid was his weight? Smith was one size for one fight - 20 pounds heavier the next.. Size is a physical asset like speed, innate power, height and reach... All of them together plus a brain beat the crap out of Tyson as Douglas proved.

Conditioning, strength, and skill are assets that aren't entirely God given... They dissipate if you don't train hard to develop and maintain them... It takes hard work and dedication to develop to your highest potential... Dokes lacked that ethic... Tyson didn't have it... Bowe was devoid of it... Holyfield had it to a minor degree... Holy screwed around and fathered 20 children... which means he didn't wear protection, was reckless, irresponsible, and not very bright.. Holy went bankrupt.. No wonder he got beaten by the hittable and dim witted Bowe in their trilogy.

Holy wasn't paying attention for every fight.. He admitted he came in way too light for the 1st Bowe fight... For the rematch he was bigger and stronger and boxed well... If he were smart he would have been prepared that way for all 3 fights... How do you lose to John Ruiz - a punching bag former Middleweight champ Roy Jones boxed to death?

[Ambling Alp II]

There's no indication Smith had much less at this stage. The Rodriguez debacle certainly points to him not having much left. The fact that he was also out of shape on top of everything else also makes the win less impressive. I would guess that Smith's prime was 1984 to 1987. By 1989 he was probably still in the top 20 though no longer the top 10. His best performances were in the 220s and lower 230s. Dokes likewise has no notable wins following the Ruddock fight and his performance against Holyfield was more than a year earlier. He was also at 225 against Holyfield and 240 against Ruddock.

I would say Parker's wins over Ruiz jr. and Takam are better than Ruddock's over Dokes or Smith given the career stage of these opponents.

Ummn no Parker has no meaningful wins. Ruiz jr. and Takim. That's getting pretty desperate to come up with meaningful wins. How come now being a higher weight is suddenly thing? In the past you kept making a big deal about bigger guys being better. The Dokes-Holyfield fight was a year earlier. In boxing terms, that not long at all.

When Ruddock beat Dokes, the only heavyweights rated higher than him were Tyson and Holyfield. Ruddock scored a devastating KO. This was a big deal at the time.

You always have curious logic. Somehow Lewis has no big wins. The win over Ruddock (or several others) doesn't count. Yet you think wins over no names are a big deal for your guys.
When Lewis blew out of Ruddock it was a big deal. It got a lot of people's attention. Nobody cared when Parker beat Takin or Ruiz outside of their immediate families.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is what I say. And said. Bowe got a whuppin'.

Bowe won the fight. So no, that is not a whuppin. Winning is what counts the most.

IDK, it didn't do Bowe much good. He got pummeled in the rematch as well. We all know the fouls got him the win. When tearing down a fight, what happens in the ring gets discussed, as well as the outcome such as this. (did that make sense?).

I guess I have to strongly disagree with the narrative people have concerning the Bowe-Golota fights.

The illegal blows didn't save Bowe. They severely limited his effectiveness.
Was Bowe impressive? Of course not. But he won.
He got hit several times by shots right in the balls in both fights. These were not just borderline low punches. He also got headbutted early in the 2nd fight which opened up a bad cut. Can you imagine a current fighter having to deal with that?
Those illegal blows impacted his performance.
Bowe could have quit. He could have been stopped. He could have been knocked out.

And the fights still weren't one-sided. Bowe hurt Golota mutliple times in these fights. He scored knockout in these fights.

Those wins are a lot better than losing with a crybaby excuse.

[Cojimar 1946]

Lewis has plenty of wins over guys in the top 10 so in that sense he has lots of big wins but given that the fighters of his era by and large didn't fight each other it makes it more difficult to tell how significant a win is. For example, if Ruddock had lost to Tim Witherspoon or Frank Bruno people would probably see the win as far less impressive. Yet, there is nothing on Ruddock's record of wins to put him ahead of Witherspoon or Bruno or Tucker despite what you may think.

With Ruddock there is a pretty big gap between the guys he beat and the guys he lost to.
my top 12 for Lewis's era would be as follows. These are only guys who were direct contemporaries and exclude fighters like Tua, Grant, Witherspoon who overlapped with Lewis but were from a different era.
1.Lennox Lewis
2.Evander Holyfield
3.Mike Tyson
4.Oliver McCall
5.Riddick Bowe
6.Corrie Sanders
7.Donovan Ruddock
8.Henry Akinwande
9.Frank Bruno
10.Michael Moorer
11.Ray Mercer
12.Gary Mason

[Ambling Alp II]

Ridiculous that you keep saying that there were not enough fights to judge these guys. Most have several fights that shows how good they were. Watch Ruddock vs Dokes. Dokes was the #3 heavyweight in the world a the time. Watch Ruddock vs Tyson. Should give you a ballpark idea how good he was if you know anything about evaluating fighters.

Riddick Bowe was light years better than Oliver McCall. Absurd that you would think differently.
Possibly the dumbest thing I have heard on this Forum.

Corrie Sanders is way too high. Probably doesn't deserve to even be listed. He had a win over glass jaw and that's it. He also had some bad losses. Rahman was better. Tua was better and you don't even them listed. (and yes I know they weren't undefated so you don't need to go on the database and list their losses.)
Henry Akinwande? What are you smoking?

Lewis beat most of the guys and this list (among others) and you just don't have the foggiest idea how hood he was. Unbelievable.

[Cojimar 1946]

Dokes was past his prime when he faced Ruddock. He was also out of shape and never scored a significant win again in his career. I certainly am doubtful he was the 3rd best heavyweight in the world at this stage. Ruddock would have been far better served to faced younger prime fighters.