Joshua vs. Povetkin, a mismatch or not ?

[ValMar]

Candyslim, I knew that you could not list 10 top class big HWs. This is not personal, of course, nobody could do it, simply, they do not exist. I will try : Klitschko brothers, Joshua, fit/healthy Fury, older version of Lennox Lewis. Valuev doesn't belong here, definitely. I am not sure about Bowe (his height and average weight) but he could be border-line type, and that is it.

I think that 12 weight division would be the perfect scenario.
Let us say :
1. minimum - 107
2. fly ---------112
3. bantam---118
4. feather----126
5. light-------135
6. lightwelter-140
7. welter -----147
8. light middle-154
9. middle------166
10. light heavy--180
11. cruiser ------210
12. heavy------over 210

[candyslim]

Don't forget Valmar that while there have always been huge heavyweights, the age of the 6' 6" fully coordinated and athletic heavyweight hasn't been around very long. Lewis and Bowe were precursors, The Klitschkos were the real article and had the field to themselves for a while.

Gradually it's becoming more commonplace with Fury, Wilder, Joshua - still not that many but the numbers are increasing and these super-sized guys are here to stay. Your challenge was 240 lbs which introduces people like Ortiz, Whyte, Miller ... there's more but it depends very much on how you measure top-class, besides why 240 my suggestion for Super-cruiser was 224?

You stilll didn't answer my question : I don't know if you remember the howls of protest back in eighties about the introduction of a pointless unnecessary new weight class between Light-heavy and Heavyweight? Don't worry if you don't it was vehement and probably no different to how a Super-cruiserweight announcement would be greeted today.

But I ask again. Would you be in favour of abolishing the Cruiserweight division , do you think that it's creation was a mistake? I'm betting the answer is "No" so I'd then ask "Do you not think it likely that in 30 or 40 years time Super-cruiser wouldn't be regarded with the same affection and wouldn't be giving us great fights?

.

[candyslim]

As to your suggested list it could use some fine-tuning. The gap should increase as we go up the weight classes but your gaps go (in ilbs increments) 5, 6, 8, 5, 7, 7, 12, 14, 30.

There's an argument for dropping the Light.welter and Light-middles because the lighter weight classes should have the lower increments so I'd suggest not following the 8lb jump with a 5.

Now where did I park my DeLorean ?

[Sequitorian]

As to your suggested list it could use some fine-tuning. The gap should increase as we go up the weight classes but your gaps go (in ilbs increments) 5, 6, 8, 5, 7, 7, 12, 14, 30.

Absolutely correct! ... if you're going to do it, do it right ... so the weight differential increases on a smooth curve ...

... it's not that hard ... its simple math ... in fact I already did it myself one time ...

... (but I can't find the spreadsheet and I can't be bothered looking for it ... 'cause no one here listens anyway) ... ...

[Ilya Muromets]

I've been complaining about the archaic boxing weight div. setup for years. I think the logical way to do it would be by percentage increments. Below could be a starting point, using pounds, though really we should be using metrics like most of the world, and using 10% increments.

10% increments looks like this, starting at 100 pounds. Max. and above could be set at the 261 for now I think. ..at least until 350 pound 7'6" solid muscle giants start coming along, out of China or someplace!

100 110 121 133 146 161 177 195 215 237 261

[BigBenHo]

Not a mismatch.

Its Joshua's second toughest fight of his career and not one he really wanted to take. However given Povetkins age and the fact he is off the gear...its an easier fight than it would have been 3 years ago.

Joshua UD

I suspect Joshua fights how he Wlad did against Povetkin. Lots of holding and not allowing for inside work.

[BigBenHo]

Not a mismatch.

Its Joshua's second toughest fight of his career and not one he really wanted to take. However given Povetkins age and the fact he is off the gear...its an easier fight than it would have been 3 years ago.

Joshua UD

I suspect Joshua fights how Wlad did against Povetkin. Lots of holding and not allowing for inside work.

[Mexi-Box]

Not a mismatch.

Its Joshua's second toughest fight of his career and not one he really wanted to take. However given Povetkins age and the fact he is off the gear...its an easier fight than it would have been 3 years ago.

Joshua UD

I suspect Joshua fights how he Wlad did against Povetkin. Lots of holding and not allowing for inside work.

Depends on how Povetkin shows up. If Povetkin comes in with nothing to lose, I have to wonder how this fight will be. Povetkin is a gold medalist, extremely talented. Klitschko was only able to do what he did because the referee allowed him.

I hope they get someone that doesn't let Joshua hold like Klitschko did. I also hope they don't get someone that freaks out anytime someone gets close to AJ like in the Parker fight. That was absolutely ridiculous.

[candyslim]

Agree on both counts. They say styles make fights but in those cases the fights were made, or at least molded, by the referee.

I'd like to think they didn't alter the eventual winner, but those fights would have been very different and far better had the fighters not had to share the ring with an idiot.

Mind you I doubt Wlad was complaining, or AJ for that matter.

[Ilya Muromets]

Agree on both counts. They say styles make fights but in those cases the fights were made, or at least molded, by the referee.

I'd like to think they didn't alter the eventual winner, but those fights would have been very different and far better had the fighters not had to share the ring with an idiot.

Mind you I doubt Wlad was complaining, or AJ for that matter.

Why are fighter's corners so docile? If a referee is not doing his job right and is obviously biased - so damn common nowadays - and in Las Vegas it's the rule not the exception - protest loudly, take their man and leave. Sure they'll disqualify him and it will make the gangsters who run the sport and the TV gangsters angry, but it will start to shake things up a bit.

George Foreman was the only honest TV announcer. I remember after the Oquendo fight when the crook judges gave it to Byrd, Foreman was irate and said that fighters have to stop standing there meekly and accepting that. Then he said, "Those were the best judges that money can ...". The TV network announced that Foreman "retired" right after that fight (he came back a couple of years later after agreeing not to talk about Kayfabe - which, if u don't know what that is - it's wrestling carny talk for don't let the suckers in the seats know what's really going on). Sure, if this fight really does come off I expect the worst from the ref and judges and who knows what else (Haye sabotaged Monte Barret's pre fight hotel reservation so he wouldn't be able to get a good night's sleep the night before the fight).

This thread poll is poorly composed. If it's a fair fight I expect it to be a mismatch...in favor of the Vityaz man!

[candyslim]

If he's disqualified in such a manner wouldn't he run the risk his purse might be withheld or he'd get fined and/or black-listed?

I do agree your point though, the corner should make their protestations loud and clear without completely upending the apple-cart.

Re Big George: You haven't already forgotten Teddy Atlas's state of near apoplectic rage after GGG gggot robbed against Canelo have you?

[Mexi-Box]

If he's disqualified in such a manner wouldn't he run the risk his purse might be withheld or he'd get fined and/or black-listed?

I do agree your point though, the corner should make their protestations loud and clear without completely upending the apple-cart.

Re Big George: You haven't already forgotten Teddy Atlas's state of near apoplectic rage after GGG gggot robbed against Canelo have you?

Atlas already been blacklisted too after the Horn fight. He's no longer a main commentator on ESPN. Guy's freakouts are hilarious, though.

Atlas' freakout over the Cave/Escandon fight is hilarious. "I'd get out of it, I'd get the hell out of it!" Funny line that he delivered.

Anyways, we need more guys like Norman Stone. He was hilarious. He would've blown a fuse if he was in the corner of Povetkin or Parker.

[candyslim]

I have to confess I don't know Norman Stone, at least not by name.

[DrDuke]

I have to confess I don't know Norman Stone, at least not by name.

John Ruiz's head coach.

[Mexi-Box]

I have to confess I don't know Norman Stone, at least not by name.

Ruiz's cornerman. Look him up on YouTube for a laugh.

[candyslim]

Thanks guys I'll do that.

[ValMar]

Don't forget Valmar that while there have always been huge heavyweights, the age of the 6' 6" fully coordinated and athletic heavyweight hasn't been around very long. Lewis and Bowe were precursors, The Klitschkos were the real article and had the field to themselves for a while.

Gradually it's becoming more commonplace with Fury, Wilder, Joshua - still not that many but the numbers are increasing and these super-sized guys are here to stay. Your challenge was 240 lbs which introduces people like Ortiz, Whyte, Miller ... there's more but it depends very much on how you measure top-class, besides why 240 my suggestion for Super-cruiser was 224?

You stilll didn't answer my question : I don't know if you remember the howls of protest back in eighties about the introduction of a pointless unnecessary new weight class between Light-heavy and Heavyweight? Don't worry if you don't it was vehement and probably no different to how a Super-cruiserweight announcement would be greeted today.

But I ask again. Would you be in favour of abolishing the Cruiserweight division , do you think that it's creation was a mistake? I'm betting the answer is "No" so I'd then ask "Do you not think it likely that in 30 or 40 years time Super-cruiser wouldn't be regarded with the same affection and wouldn't be giving us great fights?

.

Candyslim (and x2x), let us try to reach the compromise about the weight divisions. So, I was a child when the CW had been started.
I lived in a light version of socialism in ex-Yugoslavia. Without internet and cable tv, but we could watch every important boxing match, especially at HW. I can not remember clearly, of course, but I know that boxing fans and majority of people in my enviroment, generally speaking, had been strongly "PRO" the new weight division (I had been "PRO", of course). There had been a very important reason - Mate Parlov (RIP) had been the Olympic and the World amateur LHW champion, and after that he became the profesional world champion, too. BTW, he had been very skilfull and the powerful in the same time, and a genuine gentleman, the true role-model for young people. From the beginning of his prefesional career, he had a lot of problems making LHW limit, and this fact had not been hidden, I remember that he had been speaking openly about this problem. And, YES, I could not wait to see the new division, and Parlov in the new division. Unfortunately, he had not become the CW champion, but this is another story. I apologize, this was a very long beginning of the post, simply, I don't want to be misunderstood.
Let us about compromise, I can stand 17 divisions (although, I claim that 12 would be a perfect number), and I (if I am a VIP) would accept the changing of limits at four divisions (from MW to CW).
So, MW limit would be 164, SMW-174, LHW - 185, and CW-218......OK, I know that it would not be fair for fighters with natural weight about 200, but I claim that it would be a "less evil" than making a new division.

[candyslim]

Oh sh*t yeah, that Norman Stone. How could I forget him???

Tell you what, if I were Ruiz I'd get absolutely battered by my opponent rather than have Stone even a little bit disappointed in me.

[candyslim]

Don't forget Valmar that while there have always been huge heavyweights, the age of the 6' 6" fully coordinated and athletic heavyweight hasn't been around very long. Lewis and Bowe were precursors, The Klitschkos were the real article and had the field to themselves for a while.

Gradually it's becoming more commonplace with Fury, Wilder, Joshua - still not that many but the numbers are increasing and these super-sized guys are here to stay. Your challenge was 240 lbs which introduces people like Ortiz, Whyte, Miller ... there's more but it depends very much on how you measure top-class, besides why 240 my suggestion for Super-cruiser was 224?

You stilll didn't answer my question : I don't know if you remember the howls of protest back in eighties about the introduction of a pointless unnecessary new weight class between Light-heavy and Heavyweight? Don't worry if you don't it was vehement and probably no different to how a Super-cruiserweight announcement would be greeted today.

But I ask again. Would you be in favour of abolishing the Cruiserweight division , do you think that it's creation was a mistake? I'm betting the answer is "No" so I'd then ask "Do you not think it likely that in 30 or 40 years time Super-cruiser wouldn't be regarded with the same affection and wouldn't be giving us great fights?

.

Candyslim (and x2x), let us try to reach the compromise about the weight divisions. So, I was a child when the CW had been started.
I lived in a light version of socialism in ex-Yugoslavia. Without internet and cable tv, but we could watch every important boxing match, especially at HW. I can not remember clearly, of course, but I know that boxing fans and majority of people in my enviroment, generally speaking, had been strongly "PRO" the new weight division (I had been "PRO", of course). There had been a very important reason - Mate Parlov (RIP) had been the Olympic and the World amateur LHW champion, and after that he became the profesional world champion, too. BTW, he had been very skilfull and the powerful in the same time, and a genuine gentleman, the true role-model for young people. From the beginning of his prefesional career, he had a lot of problems making LHW limit, and this fact had not been hidden, I remember that he had been speaking openly about this problem. And, YES, I could not wait to see the new division, and Parlov in the new division. Unfortunately, he had not become the CW champion, but this is another story. I apologize, this was a very long beginning of the post, simply, I don't want to be misunderstood.
Let us about compromise, I can stand 17 divisions (although, I claim that 12 would be a perfect number), and I (if I am a VIP) would accept the changing of limits at four divisions (from MW to CW).
So, MW limit would be 164, SMW-174, LHW - 185, and CW-218......OK, I know that it would not be fair for fighters with natural weight about 200, but I claim that it would be a "less evil" than making a new division.

Sorry Valmar I've only now seen your post. Mate Parlov. There's a name I haven't heard or read for a long time. Very good boxer and sad to hear the he's no longer with us. I didn't know about his weight issues but it makes good sense his fans would be happy about the new division. My experience in the UK was - if I'm remembering correctly - regarding cruiserweight, pretty hostile for the most part for exactly the same reasons people like yourself don't want a new division between cruiser and heavy.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd add the new division and prune the lighter weights. Surely ten divisions for 35lbs is overkill?

[ValMar]

Candyslim, I am open-minded (or better, I try to be open-minded). So, I opened (again) a new thread about "super-big fighters" and the possibilities of introducing the new weight divisions in order to see what the majority of posters think about this problem.
Yes, there are too many weight divisions under LWW, but, honestly, I prefer HW, and am not intersted a lot about "the small boxers".............Yes, Loma is great, Rigo was great, too, Mikey is the top class, but, I prefer to watch one fight (like Whyte- Parker) at HW than ten top class fights at SFW or LW.

Sorry, I am off topic, again.....

[Luis Fernando12]

Mike Tyson was also one of the smallest heavyweights in his era, in fact I'm taller myself, but he seemed to do very reasonable, even at young age.

That's because Mike Tyson fought in a completely different era, where he was able to dominate because modern SUPER HEAVYWEIGHTS like Anthony Joshua and the Klitschkos did not exist.

I know, but Tony Tucker, Michael Spinks and Frank Bruno did exist, just like they got Povetkin, Klitschko and AJ nowadays.

Those guys weren't modern type super heavyweights. Only Lennox Lewis was the closest thing you'd get to one that Mike Tyson fought, and we all know what happened to Mike Tyson when he fought a 37 year old, washed up version of Lennox Lewis who was older than Tyson during their fight.

[Luis Fernando12]

Yes he is but one thing Wlad in his mature years had going for him was a very reliable chin, although it appears to have improved dramatically with age. Hopefully Joshua's will too but at the moment he can be caught , wobbled, even dropped.

Povetkin is well used to fighting taller and rangier opponents. He is adept at closing the range and when he does, he throws a spiteful left hook or a wicked right hand over the top. If AJ were foolish enough to leave his head up there unprotected like a weather vane, Povetkin would take full advantage. AJ is no fool and will concentrate on tight defence using his jab and stiff counters to make Sasha pay for each forward step.

Size does matter in boxing of course it does, but you need to know how to get the best out of your height advantage because you can be sure that a good shorter man has been successful by learning how best to turn his height shortfall to his advantage.

Size matters but it's not the be-all and end-all. I do believe your obsession loses you sight of the whole picture.

Povetkin is a very long way from having no chance, I'd rate his chances about 35%. and it'll probably be up to 40 % by fight night as my nervousness for AJ peaks.

I don't give Povetkin a % of a chance at beating Joshua. And seeing as you are an AJ fan, there is absolutely nothing for you to worry about what so ever as Povetkin poses 0% threat or risk at beating Joshua. He doesn't have the power to KO Joshua with one punch. And suppose he lands one punch that hurts Joshua and tries to follow up on them with more punches to get the KO, Joshua is physically too strong and will man handle Povetkin as if he was a little child.

And Povetkin has 0% chanec of out-boxing Joshua and winning a decision.

Skills become irrelevant against an opponent that is that much bigger in size, and also knows how to use his size. Povetkin is out of his depth and element here. He is going to be hopeless and is going to be praying to his god that the damage that will be inflicted on him, is not severe that it takes years out of his life and gives him permanent health damage.

Just by looking at the pictures of both guys, it makes me sick to my stomach that both are even allowed to fight each other as if it was a credible and a legitimate match up.

This is Alexander Povetkin, a fat, small, pudgy and chubby pudding:

And this is Anthony Joshua. An insane physical specimen and a giant behemoth:

How can anyone honestly say with a straight face, after looking at both guy's picture, that they even belong in the same ring together? It's disgusting and looks totally gruesome.

Povetkin has as much of a chance at beating Joshua, as a mouse has at beating a T-Rex whilst colliding head on and head first with that T-Rex.

What a truly abysmal post. Your attempt to highlight your non-points by comparing the physiques was especially amusing.

That's what people did when the Lomachenko vs Rigondeaux bout was taking place. And the size difference between Lomachenko and Rigondeaux was much smaller and both were functionally closer in size to each other than Povetkin and Joshua would be when they fight each other.

But somehow I'm being abysmal when I point out the mismatch between Povetkin and Joshua, but it's totally acceptable when people complain about much smaller mismatches?

[Luis Fernando12]

No, that's not true.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you introduce yourself a while back as a big Povetkin fan? How do they say, with friends like that who needs enemie?

Now let us look at photogaphs of Joshua, Wilder, and Povetkin. Two of them have physiques that suggest possible steroid use, and one of them has the physique of an old fashioned male athlete? Who knows the answer?

I'm a fan, but I'm also a realist. Povetkin has no business fighting in the modern heavyweight division among insane SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT behemoths like Joshua.

And yes, maybe Joshua is on steroids. Which is more reason why Povtetkin should avoid Joshua at all costs. Since it makes the fight even more unfair.

One thing I do strongly agree with you about is the need for at least one more heavyweight division, for these modern super heavyweights. More heavy weight divisions are needed - and less light weight divisions.

PS I edited the post you quoted a bit. See above.

Fair enough! At least we can both agree on one common thing though. However, I also maintain that Povetkin also isn't big enough either, for fighting against modern sized Super heavyweight goliaths like Anthony Joshua. That's where we might both disagree.

[tiny_acres]

I'm a fan, but I'm also a realist. Povetkin has no business fighting in the modern heavyweight division among insane SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT behemoths like Joshua.

And yes, maybe Joshua is on steroids. Which is more reason why Povtetkin should avoid Joshua at all costs. Since it makes the fight even more unfair.

One thing I do strongly agree with you about is the need for at least one more heavyweight division, for these modern super heavyweights. More heavy weight divisions are needed - and less light weight divisions.

PS I edited the post you quoted a bit. See above.

Fair enough! At least we can both agree on one common thing though. However, I also maintain that Povetkin also isn't big enough either, for fighting against modern sized Super heavyweight goliaths like Anthony Joshua. That's where we might both disagree.

There's 4 inches in height and only 13 pounds difference (229 - 243 in their last bout)
There's numerous larger differences in which the smaller challenger over came the size advantage.
It's not like Povetkin is 5'10 and 185 like fighters of yesteryear

The biggest disadvantage now is age and no drugs for Povetkin

[punchoutsb]

I don't give Povetkin a % of a chance at beating Joshua. And seeing as you are an AJ fan, there is absolutely nothing for you to worry about what so ever as Povetkin poses 0% threat or risk at beating Joshua. He doesn't have the power to KO Joshua with one punch. And suppose he lands one punch that hurts Joshua and tries to follow up on them with more punches to get the KO, Joshua is physically too strong and will man handle Povetkin as if he was a little child.

And Povetkin has 0% chanec of out-boxing Joshua and winning a decision.

Skills become irrelevant against an opponent that is that much bigger in size, and also knows how to use his size. Povetkin is out of his depth and element here. He is going to be hopeless and is going to be praying to his god that the damage that will be inflicted on him, is not severe that it takes years out of his life and gives him permanent health damage.

Just by looking at the pictures of both guys, it makes me sick to my stomach that both are even allowed to fight each other as if it was a credible and a legitimate match up.

This is Alexander Povetkin, a fat, small, pudgy and chubby pudding:

And this is Anthony Joshua. An insane physical specimen and a giant behemoth:

How can anyone honestly say with a straight face, after looking at both guy's picture, that they even belong in the same ring together? It's disgusting and looks totally gruesome.

Povetkin has as much of a chance at beating Joshua, as a mouse has at beating a T-Rex whilst colliding head on and head first with that T-Rex.

What a truly abysmal post. Your attempt to highlight your non-points by comparing the physiques was especially amusing.

That's what people did when the Lomachenko vs Rigondeaux bout was taking place. And the size difference between Lomachenko and Rigondeaux was much smaller and both were functionally closer in size to each other than Povetkin and Joshua would be when they fight each other.

But somehow I'm being abysmal when I point out the mismatch between Povetkin and Joshua, but it's totally acceptable when people complain about much smaller mismatches?

Small men and big men are not a similar population group.