BoxRec

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:16 I did, my phone changed it to bother. The illiteracy of smart phones is enraging. All I see mentioned is Rodrigo. He was great. Don't see your point. Kalule was better than Muniz. Price had wins over both champions. All of them were better than olajide.

After fighting Leonard, Price went 5-3 with no great fight. He wasn't a great opponent at the time Ray faced him, and so on.

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:29

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:16 I did, my phone changed it to bother. The illiteracy of smart phones is enraging. All I see mentioned is Rodrigo. He was great. Don't see your point. Kalule was better than Muniz. Price had wins over both champions. All of them were better than olajide.

After fighting Leonard, Price went 5-3 with no great fight. He wasn't a great opponent at the time Ray faced him, and so on.

And Price beat an 11 fight Palomino if that's one of the two champs you refer to that he beat! I think I beat this horse enough.

I don't even know what your point is. You're all over the place. Yes, price had wins over both welter champs when he faced Leonard. It was considered a very dangerous fight. I mean when you bring olajide into the picture.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:49 I don't even know what your point is. You're all over the place. Yes, price had wins over both welter champs when he faced Leonard. It was considered a very dangerous fight.

It's been over several posts before you joined in. Another poster was defending SRL's resume as being top 10 ATG. I challenged it because I feel that outside his biggest fights, his resume was relatively weak. In addition, I feel that the entire body of work needs to be considered. As an example, I used Hagler and Monzon who's resumes had better fighters up and down their records, and the class of the time. I also used Hearns to a lesser extent. I'm not sure what you are confused about. I challenge SRL's overall record as it relates to a TOP 10 ATG rating.

I'm not confused. You're not making sense.

You're wanting to take away Leonard's 4 best opponents he beat. Take away Griffith, Valdez, benvenutti and briscoe and monzons record is thin. Pretty much any fighter not named greb. Anyway, carry on. I hate Leonard.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:55 I'm not confused. You're not making sense.

NO!!! In ADDITION TO TOP OPPONENTS (I.E. Top 50 ATG's). I can't make it any plainer for you. I'm sorry. What's so hard to understand? Hagler and Monzon have a better ring resume than Sugar Ray Leonard. That I count all fights and not just those against perceived or real TOP 50 All Time Greats. BTW: You need to familiarize yourself with Monzon's 'other' opponents better. At this point, I really think you are f'n around or drinking heavily.

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 19:01

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:55 I'm not confused. You're not making sense.

NO!!! In ADDITION TO TOP OPPONENTS (I.E. Top 50 ATG's). I can't make it any plainer for you. I'm sorry. What's so hard to understand? Hagler and Monzon have a better ring resume than Sugar Ray Leonard. That I count all fights and not just those against perceived or real TOP 50 All Time Greats. BTW: You need to familiarize yourself with Monzon's 'other' opponents better. At this point, I really think you are f'n around or drinking heavily.

Lol, I'm quite familiar with monzons career. Or any fighter you know. Thanks for the laugh. I rate Leonard above hagler who I rate above monzon.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 19:03

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 19:01

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:55 I'm not confused. You're not making sense.

NO!!! In ADDITION TO TOP OPPONENTS (I.E. Top 50 ATG's). I can't make it any plainer for you. I'm sorry. What's so hard to understand? Hagler and Monzon have a better ring resume than Sugar Ray Leonard. That I count all fights and not just those against perceived or real TOP 50 All Time Greats. BTW: You need to familiarize yourself with Monzon's 'other' opponents better. At this point, I really think you are f'n around or drinking heavily.

Lol, I'm quite familiar with monzons career. Or any fighter you know. Thanks for the laugh. I rate Leonard above hagler who I rate above monzon.

Wrong. Now who is making who laugh!

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:24 First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.

Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:24 First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.

Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:17

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 16:55

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Jan 2019, 13:40

I also notice Chavez got his 3 biggest fights. I wonder why Tommy got only two?

Chavez never lost in his prime. Nor even knocked out. He was one of boxing's greatest champions fighting 36 title bouts. Unbeaten in first 87 bouts. Beat the very best that was available between 130-140lbs. Tommy, for all the marbles, got knocked out. Not only once, but twice.

Chavez, in his prime, was considered the best fighter pound per pound for at least 5 years straight. Something that The Hitman did not accomplished.

For all the marbles, Chavez was 2-1.
For all the marbles, Hearns was 0-2.

See the picture?

Those marbles are considerably better though. If Leonard and Hagler didn't exist like they basically didn't exist in Chavez' prime then Hearns would have been the best in the world for just as long as Chavez with a stronger opponent field.

Throwing the Hagler and Leonard losses at Hearns is overly simplistic. On the flip side once Chavez was defeated he went downhill and became cannon fodder whereas Hearns was always able to bounce back and produce further greatness.

When Chavez started to lose was past prime. In his prime, he was a remarkable all time great boxer with 87 straight wins from the beginning of his career. He started losing after 13 years as a professional. And he beat excellent opposition. Not every fighter could be an all time great. But, between 130lbs to 140lbs, the guy was invincible. While Hearns, to prove himself that he was the best in the world, and for all the marbles, HE GOT KNOCKED OUT...TWICE! And in his prime.

Chavez won the two biggest fights of his career in his prime. They might not be Sugar Ray or Marvelous, but they were very, very good. And that's what it matters. Chavez was the best between 130 and 140. Hearns??? He Flunked.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 16:58 And as Onetimeonly mentioned, you can't list three for Chavez and just two for Hearns.
Heanrs beat Benitz and duran in his third and fourth biggest fights. Both of those are light years better than beating frikkin Edwin Rosario.

I am kidding about Calzaghe. I was just showing how stupid elmer's logic of just counting the biggest fights of a guys career. Some guys fights are bigger than others.
Hearns biggest fights were bigger than Chavez's. Chavez's were bigger than Calzaghe.

It depends how people look at it. Beating a Wilfred Benitez at 154lbs is not a greater accomplishment than beating Meldrick Taylor or Edwin Rosario going up in weight. Chavez had to go up in weight to beat Rosario. And not just beat him. He totally dominated a fantastic champion who is one of boxing's greatest knockout artists.

Benitez was a 140-147lbs fighter that didn't do much at 154lbs, except beating a washed up, overblown and listless Roberto Duran. After that, he didn't do much. Meanwhile, Taylor and Rosario won more titles after being defeated by Chavez.

Hearns knocking out Duran was a great accomplishment, not because it was a prime Duran. It wasn't even Duran's weight class. Chavez win over Rosario and Taylor were greater feats. The Duran and Benitez' wins weren't for all the marbles, either.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:24 First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.

Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

Going off of the top of my head (this isn't everyone) Leonard beat Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, Armando Muniz, Andy Price, Johnny Gant, Adolfo Viruet, and Tony Chiaverini. Chiaverini was a middleweight. Not legends, but that is pretty impressive for a guy with less than three years of experience.

Duran beat Koybashi and 27 no names before fighting for the title.
Monzon beat a lot of people who had a pulse.

Marcel isn't a no name.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 16:58 And as Onetimeonly mentioned, you can't list three for Chavez and just two for Hearns.
Heanrs beat Benitz and duran in his third and fourth biggest fights. Both of those are light years better than beating frikkin Edwin Rosario.

I am kidding about Calzaghe. I was just showing how stupid elmer's logic of just counting the biggest fights of a guys career. Some guys fights are bigger than others.
Hearns biggest fights were bigger than Chavez's. Chavez's were bigger than Calzaghe.

It depends how people look at it. Beating a Wilfred Benitez at 154lbs is not a greater accomplishment than beating Meldrick Taylor or Edwin Rosario going up in weight. Chavez had to go up in weight to beat Rosario. And not just beat him. He totally dominated a fantastic champion who is one of boxing's greatest knockout artists.

Benitez was a 140-147lbs fighter that didn't do much at 154lbs, except beating a washed up, overblown and listless Roberto Duran. After that, he didn't do much. Meanwhile, Taylor and Rosario won more titles after being defeated by Chavez.

Hearns knocking out Duran was a great accomplishment, not because it was a prime Duran. It wasn't even Duran's weight class. Chavez win over Rosario and Taylor were greater feats. The Duran and Benitez' wins weren't for all the marbles, either.

I think 154 was were we saw the best of Benitez. Sure it was downhill after Hearns but I think his level reached it's high point at that division.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 12:45 Marcel isn't a no name.

Agreed. Make that 26 no names out of 28 opponents.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 15:03

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 12:45 Marcel isn't a no name.

Agreed. Make that 26 no names out of 28 opponents.

Garcia was a good gatekeeper. Let's go 25.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 11:57

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:24 First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.

Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

Going off of the top of my head (this isn't everyone) Leonard beat Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, Armando Muniz, Andy Price, Johnny Gant, Adolfo Viruet, and Tony Chiaverini. Chiaverini was a middleweight. Not legends, but that is pretty impressive for a guy with less than three years of experience.

Duran beat Koybashi and 27 no names before fighting for the title.
Monzon beat a lot of people who had a pulse.

Andy Price is the only standout in that resume.
Randy Shields?
Johnny Gant?
Adolfo Viruet?
Pete Ranzany?
Tony Chiaverini? Laughable.

Mando Muniz was already WASHED UP.

Check Marvelous Marvin and Carlos Monzon and even Roberto Duran and they had better boxers in their resume before being champions.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 15:15

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 11:57

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:17

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

Going off of the top of my head (this isn't everyone) Leonard beat Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, Armando Muniz, Andy Price, Johnny Gant, Adolfo Viruet, and Tony Chiaverini. Chiaverini was a middleweight. Not legends, but that is pretty impressive for a guy with less than three years of experience.

Duran beat Koybashi and 27 no names before fighting for the title.
Monzon beat a lot of people who had a pulse.

Andy Price is the only standout in that resume.
Randy Shields?
Johnny Gant?
Adolfo Viruet?
Pete Ranzany?
Tony Chiaverini? Laughable.

Mando Muniz was already WASHED UP.

Check Marvelous Marvin and Carlos Monzon and even Roberto Duran and they had better boxers in their resume before being champions.

100% Price went 5-3 after Leonard, so really, how good was he when he fought SRL.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 15:15

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 11:57

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 21:17

Tell me the top 9 fighters at Welterweight before Sugar Ray Leonard became world champion? I can't see them better than Marvelous or Carlos Monzon or Duran's opponents before they became world champions.

Going off of the top of my head (this isn't everyone) Leonard beat Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, Armando Muniz, Andy Price, Johnny Gant, Adolfo Viruet, and Tony Chiaverini. Chiaverini was a middleweight. Not legends, but that is pretty impressive for a guy with less than three years of experience.

Duran beat Koybashi and 27 no names before fighting for the title.
Monzon beat a lot of people who had a pulse.

Andy Price is the only standout in that resume.
Randy Shields?
Johnny Gant?
Adolfo Viruet?
Pete Ranzany?
Tony Chiaverini? Laughable.

Mando Muniz was already WASHED UP.

Check Marvelous Marvin and Carlos Monzon and even Roberto Duran and they had better boxers in their resume before being champions.

Monzon fought very few of note. Fernandez was solid. Other than him and briscoe I can't think of any off the cuff.

FFS here we go again!

Price beat Cuevas and Palomino before he fought Leonard. He was ranked when Leonard beat him. .
Muniz held his own for 15 rounds against Palomino in his previous fight. He was ranked.
Chiaverini was a ranked middleweight when a young Leonard beat him. How many welterweight prospects take on middleweight contenders?
Shields, Ranzany were legitimate contenders for quite some time. Viruet was a good fighter.

To be taking on these guys as a prospect is pretty good. He probably has the best pre-title shot resume of anyone in the last 50 years.

Duran's pre-title fight resume is weak and Monzon's is almost a joke. Any you guys are going to pick holes with these guys? Wow.
Almost all of their wins against people that are unknown outside of their immediate families.

I can pick holes in anyone that Duran, Monzon, or Hagler beat before they fought for a title. Go ahead, name somebody.

Hagler was ducked forever, his is strong. Amazing anybody would mention monzon here.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 15:46

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 15:15

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Jan 2019, 11:57

Going off of the top of my head (this isn't everyone) Leonard beat Pete Ranzany, Randy Shields, Armando Muniz, Andy Price, Johnny Gant, Adolfo Viruet, and Tony Chiaverini. Chiaverini was a middleweight. Not legends, but that is pretty impressive for a guy with less than three years of experience.

Duran beat Koybashi and 27 no names before fighting for the title.
Monzon beat a lot of people who had a pulse.

Andy Price is the only standout in that resume.
Randy Shields?
Johnny Gant?
Adolfo Viruet?
Pete Ranzany?
Tony Chiaverini? Laughable.

Mando Muniz was already WASHED UP.

Check Marvelous Marvin and Carlos Monzon and even Roberto Duran and they had better boxers in their resume before being champions.

Monzon fought very few of note. Fernandez was solid. Other than him and briscoe I can't think of any off the cuff.

How about Andres Selpa? He was a good quality fighter from Argentina.