BoxRec

overhand_right wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 10:34 No, Zora Foley didn't stagger Ali at all. And David Haye was nearly knocked out by the super middleweight Lolenga Mock, and was also down against cruisers Thompson and Mormeck, but went 12 rounds with Wladimir Klitschko, one of the heavyweight division's biggest ever hitters.

I don't know why people bring up fights where a raw novice slipped up while taking chances against an inferior opponent and ignore the much larger body of work of the mature fighter beating better guys and doing so in a disciplined manner. So Clay was down against Banks and Cooper. I guess that guarantees he gets knocked out by Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle and Shavers. That's the way it works right?

I never meant it that way, just pointing out he was human and could be hurt. There was one fighter that hurt Ali in the 2nd or 3rd round, maybe not Folley

Controversial wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 12:26 I never meant it that way, just pointing out he was human and could be hurt. There was one fighter that hurt Ali in the 2nd or 3rd round, maybe not Folley

Ali was stunned by many; dropped by some; hurt by some; and I guess stopped once in the Ams. So what. Name a fighter whose career is complete that was never hurt or stunned.

oogiebe wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 12:30 Ali was stunned by many; dropped by some; hurt by some; and I guess stopped once in the Ams. So what. Name a fighter whose career is complete that was never hurt or stunned.

Yes I know, I was referring to a comment by someone who said he couldn't be knocked out.

Controversial wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 12:31 Yes I know, I was referring to a comment by someone who said he couldn't be knocked out.

Ah! Got it. Ok, I'm agreeing with you!

Some people do have a theory that anyone can be knocked out. I guess there is no way to prove it either way. However take a look at Ali's career. He never came close to being stopped anywhere near his prime. (I think we can all agree to throw the Holmes fight out.)

He fought harder punchers than anyone. Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers.
Foreman blew Norton and Frazier away. Foreman hit Ali over and over and nothing.

Lewis would not get nearly that many chances against a prime Ali. I would argue that Foreman hit harder than Lewis. There were other guys who Lewis nailed and couldn't get them out of there. He hit Mercer with everything he had and couldn't get it done. Couldn't get it done against a washed up Holyfield. Couldn't get it done against Mavrovic. Never came close against Tua. Never actually hurt McCall.
The chances of him taking out Ali are remote at best.

I am the guy that said that Ali could not be knocked out. I guess that if Ali was hit over the head with a sledgehammer, then he would be knocked out, or killed. But he did take some pretty good punches along the way, and I guess that he was stopped by someone when he was 16 years old.

Maybe what I should have said is that Ali had a great, great chin, and I don't think that anyone can deny that. Outside of his speed, his chin may have been his greatest asset.

Scypion wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 15:55 I am the guy that said that Ali could not be knocked out. I guess that if Ali was hit over the head with a sledgehammer, then he would be knocked out, or killed. But he did take some pretty good punches along the way, and I guess that he was stopped by someone when he was 16 years old.

Maybe what I should have said is that Ali had a great, great chin, and I don't think that anyone can deny that. Outside of his speed, his chin may have been his greatest asset.

Yup. His overall ability to absorb punishment wasn't human.

Ali was knocked out in sparring by Jimmy Ellis I believe

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Apr 2019, 15:26
There were other guys who Lewis nailed and couldn't get them out of there. He hit Mercer with everything he had and couldn't get it done. Couldn't get it done against a washed up Holyfield. Couldn't get it done against Mavrovic. Never came close against Tua. Never actually hurt McCall.
The chances of him taking out Ali are remote at best.

You could say that about any fighter to be fair, all big punchers go the distance or lose to someone, doesn't mean they couldn't hurt someone else. Bert Cooper dropped and hurt Holyfield but Tyson and many others couldn't. Henry Cooper came closest to stopping Ali and he was 13 stone, I doubt he was as powerful or strong as Liston, Foreman, Shavers or Lyle. I'm of the opinion that anyone can be knocked out if hit right. Ali was predominately a defensive fighter, they are always the hardest to stop.

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 01:20 Ali was knocked out in sparring by Jimmy Ellis I believe

You believe wrong

overhand_right wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 11:51 You believe wrong

It was reported in the press at the time

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:06 It was reported in the press at the time

Leaked by Ali to drum up interest in a fight? When was this reported? Ellis couldn't hurt Ali with a shotgun.

overhand_right wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:08 Leaked by Ali to drum up interest in a fight? When was this reported? Ellis couldn't hurt Ali with a shotgun.

Who knows, I posted it years ago from an article I found

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Feb 2014, 20:59 Jimmy Ellis decked Ali twice in one round whilst sparring in 1977 in preparation for Ali to fight Earnie Shavers. Apparently the knockdowns were so severe Ali couldn't remember them and it was said he would've been counted out in a real fight and it resulted in an injury to Ali's neck. Ellis had been retired for 2 years.

"I didn't know where I was" Ali said afterwards.

"I'm sorry man you alright?" said Ellis

When Shavers was told his reply was "he must be practicing for the 29th"


Apparently Ellis separated some of Ali's ribs whilst preparing to fight Liston and Ali had to stop training a week early. He fought Liston with the injury but kept it quiet.

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:11 Who knows, I posted it years ago from an article I found

I think this would have been more widely known had it really occurred. 1977 Ellis? Didn't even know he was still working.

Theres a photo of Ali being decked by Ellis too if you google it. Eddie Brooks also dropped Ali. But sparring is sparring, Ali never looked great when training, I appreciate it means little and only a real fight means anything.

oogiebe wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:15 I think this would have been more widely known had it really occurred. 1977 Ellis? Didn't even know he was still working.

Yes Ellis retired in 1975 so out for two years, if you google the quotes you should find the article.

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:16 Yes Ellis retired in 1975 so out for two years, if you google the quotes you should find the article.

You can do your own research. It never happened.

oogiebe wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:27 You can do your own research. It never happened.

Eh I've read the newspaper article, all I’m saying is you want to read it you can find it online

So a prime Earnie Shavers couldn't KO Ali with clean power punches, shortly after a shot, retired, fat non-punching middleweight Jimmy Ellis KOd him with big gloves and headguards.

It obviously never happened, and was invented to sell Ali-Shavers as a competitive fight. Ali's whole career was one of zany PR, going right back to the Rome Olympics. Everyone knows this.

overhand_right wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:37 So a prime Earnie Shavers couldn't KO Ali with clean power punches, shortly after a shot, retired, fat non-punching middleweight Jimmy Ellis KOd him with big gloves and headguards.

It obviously never happened, and was invented to sell Ali-Shavers as a competitive fight. Ali's whole career was one of zany PR, going right back to the Rome Olympics. Everyone knows this.

I've said it means little but Ali was often bettered in sparring so getting dropped and hurt isn't that surprising or unbelievable. Lets face it Ali was on the slide then anyway.

Controversial wrote: ↑20 Apr 2019, 12:47 I've said it means little but Ali was often bettered in sparring so getting dropped and hurt isn't that surprising or unbelievable. Lets face it Ali was on the slide then anyway.

Getting KOd by Ellis in 77 is beyond belief. I'm going out on a limb and saying it was one of the 10 million publicity stunts Ali engaged in.

"The Klitschkos are big guys but they're not in the same league as Ali; Ali would have picked them apart. All us guys in the '70s would have." Shavers told BBC Sport.

Clay would've been an awesome cruiserweight today, Ali a world beating heavyweight. He was so much better than the crop of heavies today.