BoxRec

Im still taking a stand that is racistshet goes back to the days of Jack Johnson and the Larry Merchents of that era started it all. Since, well... a black man? Omg! Had to wait for Joe Louis to come by and sort of break it... but he fought mostly white dudes.

Jack Johnson, still whata legend in his own right.

Paci wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020, 21:53 Im still taking a stand that is racistshet goes back to the days of Jack Johnson and the Larry Merchents of that era started it all. Since, well... a black man? Omg! Had to wait for Joe Louis to come by and sort of break it... but he fought mostly white dudes.

Jack Johnson, still whata legend in his own right.

Why do you say the Larry Merchants? Some people like this thread. Some hate it. But it should probably be in the political category, not current.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 09:04

Paci wrote: ↑15 Mar 2020, 21:53 Im still taking a stand that is racistshet goes back to the days of Jack Johnson and the Larry Merchents of that era started it all. Since, well... a black man? Omg! Had to wait for Joe Louis to come by and sort of break it... but he fought mostly white dudes.

Jack Johnson, still whata legend in his own right.

Why do you say the Larry Merchants? Some people like this thread. Some hate it. But it should probably be in the political category, not current.

Sorry, I can not stand the man.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:14 I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

The USA has always had top level talent in NFL Football, and NBA basketball, along with professional boxing. It's been that way since the 1950's.

This can be seen until the late 1990's, when boxing became a global sport and expanded its pro ranks to the Nations of Eastern Europe.

Since that has happened Americans at the top of the heavyweight division have become rare. It's not that they are all playing NFL Football or NBA Basketball, rather the competition level has expanded.

You can still see lots of USA talent below middle weight in boxing, perhaps because when you 147 pounds, the odds of playing NFL Football or NBA baseball are 0.0%.

Part of me sees the 'other sports' argument, part of me thinks it's sort of a yank excuse, like 'oh ya, but we'd still be the kings if this and if that'

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 14:05 Part of me sees the 'other sports' argument, part of me thinks it's sort of a yank excuse, like 'oh ya, but we'd still be the kings if this and if that'

Not that 'we'd be kings' at all. Just more competitive like the lower weight classes. That's all.

Paci wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 13:55

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 09:04

Why do you say the Larry Merchants? Some people like this thread. Some hate it. But it should probably be in the political category, not current.

Sorry, I can not stand the man.

He can be very obnoxious, just never heard anything racist.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 15:19

Paci wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 13:55

Sorry, I can not stand the man.

He can be very obnoxious, just never heard anything racist.

Not my underlyning meaning. More that he finds somebody that he dislikes for whatever reason and yeah goes after them. That is my point and that what happend to Johnson, sort of. But far worse.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 14:05 Part of me sees the 'other sports' argument, part of me thinks it's sort of a yank excuse, like 'oh ya, but we'd still be the kings if this and if that'

There is no getting away from the fact that any region is going to be more successful if a higher percentage of it's populace takes up the sport when they are very young.

Are there stats showing that a greater percentage of Americans are focusing their youths on basketball than in the previous couple of generations?

I mean, it wasn't that long ago you had the likes of Holyfield and Bowe and Tyson (lol imagine Mike in basketball). You guys talk like this was ages ago and that other sports weren't already major and super wealthy, so would Mike be a baller these days or what?

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 14:14

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 14:05 Part of me sees the 'other sports' argument, part of me thinks it's sort of a yank excuse, like 'oh ya, but we'd still be the kings if this and if that'

Not that 'we'd be kings' at all. Just more competitive like the lower weight classes. That's all.

To me it's rather strange that people act like NBA, NFL, etc were just poor paying, minor squirts back around when Holy, Tyson, Bowe, etc started pursuing the sport--these guys are all younger than Michael Jordan. USA had great HWs as recent as the 90s, it's hardly as if we have to go back to Ali. So guys like Holy, Bowe, Mike etc ....which sports would they have played instead of being boxers and why didnt they?

Basketball has probably been increasing in popularity at a higher rate in Europe than in the USA, it's been big in the USA for decades and decades,as has football

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 19:36

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 14:14
Not that 'we'd be kings' at all. Just more competitive like the lower weight classes. That's all.

To me it's rather strange that people act like NBA, NFL, etc were just poor paying, minor squirts back around when Holy, Tyson, Bowe, etc started pursuing the sport--these guys are all younger than Michael Jordan. USA had great HWs as recent as the 90s, it's hardly as if we have to go back to Ali. So guys like Holy, Bowe, Mike etc ....which sports would they have played instead of being boxers and why didnt they?

Basketball has probably been increasing in popularity at a higher rate in Europe than in the USA, it's been big in the USA for decades and decades,as has football

Million dollar contracts began in the mid seventies in Baseball. Football 10 years later. NHL 10 years after that. So at that time, the little boys were watching more of that than boxing. Those were the years of the first wave of more competitiion for athletes. No one ever said this was THE reason, just one of many including the emergence of eastern european fighters in teh pro ranks. We've talked this about enough now.

Ya, the NHL is now taking all that afro american HW talent

The sports that black americans are excelling at were already big when those guys were kids, I doubt they knew precisely the financial states of the players anyway compared to the years before, these sports were still all over media and you got rich and famous playing them.

So what would Holy, Bowe, Tyson etc been instead? Was Joe Frazier gonna be going for point guard?

Frazier started to lose weight, not make money
Ali started to beat up a bike thief, not make money
Tyson pretty much got taken from jail and put into the sport


What indicates that greats like this would've gone the other way

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 20:03 Ya, the NHL is now taking all that afro american HW talent

The sports that black americans are excelling at were already big when those guys were kids, I doubt they knew precisely the financial states of the players anyway compared to the years before, these sports were still all over media and you got rich and famous playing them.

So what would Holy, Bowe, Tyson etc been instead? Was Joe Frazier gonna be going for point guard?

Frazier started to lose weight, not make money
Ali started to beat up a bike thief, not make money
Tyson pretty much got taken from jail and put into the sport


What indicates that greats like this would've gone the other way

Do you want to have a serious discussion or be a complete dick all your life?

All valid points I make bruh, not sure why they sting you so much

I'm still interested in the alternate dimension.....what would guys like Frazier, Tyson, Ali, Holy, Bowe, etc be doing instead? We already know a lot of great HWs didn't get into the sport for money and i really am not convinced guys like this would go for other sports if they were youngsters today. Certainly not NHL!

We've seen basketball take off internationally too, yet non-US HWs are excelling

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 20:18 All valid points I make bruh, not sure why they sting you so much

I'm still interested in the alternate dimension.....what would guys like Frazier, Tyson, Ali, Holy, Bowe, etc be doing instead? We already know a lot of great HWs didn't get into the sport for money and i really am not convinced guys like this would go for other sports if they were youngsters today. Certainly not NHL!

We've seen basketball take off internationally too, yet non-US HWs are excelling

Your points don't sting. You either don't get what I'm saying or you are once again twisting what I've posted. Ergo I'd rather stop this conversation right here. It's not worth my time anymore. Remember, keep six feet distance and wash your hands often with soap and water.

Don't make me cough on you bruh

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 19:31 Are there stats showing that a greater percentage of Americans are focusing their youths on basketball than in the previous couple of generations?

I mean, it wasn't that long ago you had the likes of Holyfield and Bowe and Tyson (lol imagine Mike in basketball). You guys talk like this was ages ago and that other sports weren't already major and super wealthy, so would Mike be a baller these days or what?

It's not just the NFL, NBA, and MLB and the salaries. It's that boxing gyms closed and amateur sports in the US shunned boxing.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 20:18 All valid points I make bruh, not sure why they sting you so much

I'm still interested in the alternate dimension.....what would guys like Frazier, Tyson, Ali, Holy, Bowe, etc be doing instead? We already know a lot of great HWs didn't get into the sport for money and i really am not convinced guys like this would go for other sports if they were youngsters today. Certainly not NHL!

We've seen basketball take off internationally too, yet non-US HWs are excelling

I haven't seen much excelling outside of the UK.

Lol and yet the whole issue is the fall of American hws, does the issue not exist then

Look at the division's rankings over the last years, there is a clear shift away from the US. Personally I don't see the other sports argument as being that strong a reason, it's easy to show that many HW greats pursued sports for reasons that had nothing t do with money for example, and major league sports were already big time and sources of fame and riches before the likes of the last generation of great american hws

if anything, the big rise in major league sports has been outside the us,but the division is increasingly dominated by outside the us

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Mar 2020, 13:42 Lol and yet the whole issue is the fall of American hws, does the issue not exist then

Look at the division's rankings over the last years, there is a clear shift away from the US. Personally I don't see the other sports argument as being that strong a reason, it's easy to show that many HW greats pursued sports for reasons that had nothing t do with money for example, and major league sports were already big time and sources of fame and riches before the likes of the last generation of great american hws

if anything, the big rise in major league sports has been outside the us,but the division is increasingly dominated by outside the us

No one is arguing the effect; that's obvious. The argument is the cause. I tip my hat to UK boxing, HW and otherwise. I wish Americans were as interested.

But again, success in any sport is going to be a reflection of the % of people that do the sport.

What sports would the previous American greats, even just from the 90s like Holy and Tyson, etc, have done instead, keeping in mind that these major league sports have long histories in the US and hardly just came out of nowhere a few years ago? And a guy like Joe Frazier who began boxing to lose weight not have still done that? Money wasn't why he began, just as it wasn't for guys like Ali or Tyson either. Point guard Joe lol! Wow, great assist and dribbles and nibbles from Tyson

It's not just the UK btw either at HW, we had the Klits as the top guys before and look at the overall makeup of the contenders and champs in recent years....you haven't been following if you think it's just 1 country outside the US. There are more opportunities and support for international hws to turn pro these days

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Mar 2020, 21:17 Don't make me cough on you bruh

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Mar 2020, 15:57 What sports would the previous American greats, even just from the 90s like Holy and Tyson, etc, have done instead, keeping in mind that these major league sports have long histories in the US and hardly just came out of nowhere a few years ago? And a guy like Joe Frazier who began boxing to lose weight not have still done that? Money wasn't why he began, just as it wasn't for guys like Ali or Tyson either. Point guard Joe lol! Wow, great assist and dribbles and nibbles from Tyson

It's not just the UK btw either at HW, we had the Klits as the top guys before and look at the overall makeup of the contenders and champs in recent years....you haven't been following if you think it's just 1 country outside the US. There are more opportunities and support for international hws to turn pro these days

If Tyson was born 20 years later he wouldn't have come into contact with Cus D'Amato, therefore he wouldn't have boxed. True, Tyson and Holy aren't cut out for other sports. That's just a part of it. The decline of interest in boxing in the US is the major point.

Of course there are great fighters like GGG and Lomachenko and many others, and I'm a fan of those guys. If you look at the top 50 P4P, there are still a lot of Americans. Not like it used to be of course.

We're agreeing more than you think we are. I'm not saying the US would dominate if it was like the 1950s with boxing gyms everywhere, having said that, you are talking as though the inflated salaries in American sports was no factor at all in the HW division. I guess we disagree there.

[/quote]

No one is arguing the effect; that's obvious. The argument is the cause. I tip my hat to UK boxing, HW and otherwise. I wish Americans were as interested.

But again, success in any sport is going to be a reflection of the % of people that do the sport.
[/quote]

100% Bullshit.

America have more current heavyweights than any other country by far!!!! Go look at at the boxrec stats. America has hundreds of current heavyweights. They just all suck. America has the quality but lacks the quality.

Plus America get everything in a plate with all their amateurs being able to turn pro, loads of Tv channels showing boxing, best gyms/facilities, best trainers, etc

If you last sentence was true then black americans should be dominating The heavyweight division. But they aren't. Because they simply are not good enough. Since boxing became a more global sport their success has been going down and down. Stop making petty excuses and just admit they aren't good enough.

Every country in the world has boxers, its a worldwide sport. Some countries/some people are good at it and some people/some countries are poor at it. I could list many examples were there is big numbers of boxers from a place but they all can't fight and get to any decent level. And I can name places were there is only a small number of boxers and they are good at it.