BoxRec

Evander wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 00:02

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑05 Jul 2020, 19:47

Floyd took off 6 years total without an injury.

Not in a row.

And Leonard didn't take off 11 years in a row.

No. but he was out for 4 years before coming back to beat Hagler, which by any reckoning was some achievement.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Jul 2020, 10:13

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑04 Jul 2020, 10:05

Yeah, unfortunately pacquiao wasn't really the same guy he'd been 5 years before. He seemed to lose something once he became a megastar. You're possibly right though.

I'll give it to you that it wasn't the very best Pacquiao we'd ever seen.

But it also wasn't the very best Floyd we'd ever seen.

Nevertheless they are the 2 best fighters of their era, and easily the 2 biggest megastars in the sport up oto this point in 21st century Boxing, and therefore the fight between the two has to be the biggest thing in Floyd's career pretty much.

People can say all they want "Oh Pac was past his prime"...yeah, well it's 5 years later, and he has a World Title right f*cking now. He is 2 years younger than Floyd.

So yeah, it meant a lot to beat him.

- Manny/Floyd birth years a year apart, not two, and Manny going against at least double p4p fighters than Floyd has, ie more and harder mileage. Turning pro age 16 in a 3rd world backwater ain't the same as a 19 yr old Floyd turning pro with the biggest promoter in boxing history paving the way.

As legacy fighters both the best on each other's records, but 6 yrs later Floyd had sucked all the essence out of their fight from the original March 13, 2010 50/50 split fight Floyd backed out of at the last minute over bogus drug testing demands and sueable accusations he later settled out of court lawsuits with additional letters of apology.

Manny made the date, not Floyd, but had to move to the debut of new Cowboy Stadium since Floyd had reserved the MGM. He forfeited his deposit rather than give it to Manny.

When he does return, it's against proven drug cheat BALCO Shane crusted with over a year ring rust.

To cut to the chase , the fight was even worse than ardent critics could anticipate, a cynical cash out heavily orchestrated by the Bobfather.

Generated something like $200 mil lawsuits, most all dismissed because this being boxing, being sleazy is the norm so not sueable.

And please omit "beat" from most every Floyd fight. It's 95% hide and seek stylistic touches that wouldn't put a dent in a soap bubble. The only thing good to come out of Corona Virus is we've been spared another Floyd comeback, praise be!

And I hope you realize they could "fight" the rematch down the road or...

There's the Spector of Oscar starting training with McGregor still the wildcard. Floyd nakedly ducked the Oscar rematch that manny moved up two weight divisions to take on short notice. Oscar don't want Manny. He's looking for easier $.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 12:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Jul 2020, 10:13

I'll give it to you that it wasn't the very best Pacquiao we'd ever seen.

But it also wasn't the very best Floyd we'd ever seen.

Nevertheless they are the 2 best fighters of their era, and easily the 2 biggest megastars in the sport up oto this point in 21st century Boxing, and therefore the fight between the two has to be the biggest thing in Floyd's career pretty much.

People can say all they want "Oh Pac was past his prime"...yeah, well it's 5 years later, and he has a World Title right f*cking now. He is 2 years younger than Floyd.

So yeah, it meant a lot to beat him.

- Manny/Floyd birth years a year apart, not two, and Manny going against at least double p4p fighters than Floyd has, ie more and harder mileage. Turning pro age 16 in a 3rd world backwater ain't the same as a 19 yr old Floyd turning pro with the biggest promoter in boxing history paving the way.

As legacy fighters both the best on each other's records, but 6 yrs later Floyd had sucked all the essence out of their fight from the original March 13, 2010 50/50 split fight Floyd backed out of at the last minute over bogus drug testing demands and sueable accusations he later settled out of court lawsuits with additional letters of apology.

Manny made the date, not Floyd, but had to move to the debut of new Cowboy Stadium since Floyd had reserved the MGM. He forfeited his deposit rather than give it to Manny.

When he does return, it's against proven drug cheat BALCO Shane crusted with over a year ring rust.

To cut to the chase , the fight was even worse than ardent critics could anticipate, a cynical cash out heavily orchestrated by the Bobfather.

Generated something like $200 mil lawsuits, most all dismissed because this being boxing, being sleazy is the norm so not sueable.

And please omit "beat" from most every Floyd fight. It's 95% hide and seek stylistic touches that wouldn't put a dent in a soap bubble. The only thing good to come out of Corona Virus is we've been spared another Floyd comeback, praise be!

And I hope you realize they could "fight" the rematch down the road or...

There's the Spector of Oscar starting training with McGregor still the wildcard. Floyd nakedly ducked the Oscar rematch that manny moved up two weight divisions to take on short notice. Oscar don't want Manny. He's looking for easier $.

Just because Pacquaio has more milage doesn't mean Floyd was in his prime. Neither was in prime no matter who was closer.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 12:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Jul 2020, 10:13

I'll give it to you that it wasn't the very best Pacquiao we'd ever seen.

But it also wasn't the very best Floyd we'd ever seen.

Nevertheless they are the 2 best fighters of their era, and easily the 2 biggest megastars in the sport up oto this point in 21st century Boxing, and therefore the fight between the two has to be the biggest thing in Floyd's career pretty much.

People can say all they want "Oh Pac was past his prime"...yeah, well it's 5 years later, and he has a World Title right f*cking now. He is 2 years younger than Floyd.

So yeah, it meant a lot to beat him.

- Manny/Floyd birth years a year apart, not two, and Manny going against at least double p4p fighters than Floyd has, ie more and harder mileage. Turning pro age 16 in a 3rd world backwater ain't the same as a 19 yr old Floyd turning pro with the biggest promoter in boxing history paving the way.

As legacy fighters both the best on each other's records, but 6 yrs later Floyd had sucked all the essence out of their fight from the original March 13, 2010 50/50 split fight Floyd backed out of at the last minute over bogus drug testing demands and sueable accusations he later settled out of court lawsuits with additional letters of apology.

Manny made the date, not Floyd, but had to move to the debut of new Cowboy Stadium since Floyd had reserved the MGM. He forfeited his deposit rather than give it to Manny.

When he does return, it's against proven drug cheat BALCO Shane crusted with over a year ring rust.

To cut to the chase , the fight was even worse than ardent critics could anticipate, a cynical cash out heavily orchestrated by the Bobfather.

Generated something like $200 mil lawsuits, most all dismissed because this being boxing, being sleazy is the norm so not sueable.

And please omit "beat" from most every Floyd fight. It's 95% hide and seek stylistic touches that wouldn't put a dent in a soap bubble. The only thing good to come out of Corona Virus is we've been spared another Floyd comeback, praise be!

And I hope you realize they could "fight" the rematch down the road or...

There's the Spector of Oscar starting training with McGregor still the wildcard. Floyd nakedly ducked the Oscar rematch that manny moved up two weight divisions to take on short notice. Oscar don't want Manny. He's looking for easier $.

A whole lot of words when you could've just said "I don't like Floyd, and I really hate it that he beat Manny Pacquiao"...yeah I'm sure a lot of people do.

But he did.

Pacquiao was in his prime in 2008 when counterpunching Juan Manuel Marquez gave him all he could handle wasn't he?

Elite counter punchers probably were always a problem for him, and Floyd is better at it than Marquez was. Which is why he shut Marquez the f*ck out while Manny always struggled with him.

I think its always hard to gauge where Floyd lies because for most of his career his wins were pretty convincing. I have always failed to see how people though Castillo or even worse Maidana beat him - I thought they won some rounds, but I had Floyd a fairly comfortable winner in all 4 contests, indeed I've often thought why people seem to think fight 1 between Castillo and Floyd was controvesial and not fight 2 - I had the score cards similar for both. The only fight I thought was close and he was staring defeat down the barrel a bit was against DLH. I do think people forget that DLH had one of his best career performances just before the Mayweather fight and critically was a much bigger guy naturally.

Clearly there are harder punchers than Floyd, but in pretty much any other department I don't think we can really question Floyd because he answered every question against the fighters he fought. I don't even think we can confidently say the SRL had quicker hands than Floyd, when Floyd was never found wanting for handspeed against the fighters he fought. Neither did SRL yes, but Floyd fought some pretty quick fighters himself and seemed to have superior handspeed against them - so I don't think its a forgone conclusion.

Similarly stamina - yes Ray fought 15 rounds and off course famously outlasted Tommy Hearns and Wilfred Benetez - although not Marvin Hagler. Floyd though was never found wanting in that department though either and indeed you could say it was his superior stamina, albeit against a fighter known to fade (in some fights - but not against Quartey) got him over the line vs DLH. So again I don't know how we can safely say it's in SRL favour - as I said not saying its definately Floyd's either, but when he was never found wanting I don't think we can say either with confidence.

Where I think Floyd has definite edge was in defence, chin, boxing IQ and ability to adapt - not just in the middle of a fight, but also with age and declining skills. I mentioned in a previous post for me, as much as I love Ray and please read my post history - until Floyd's later reign I'd always call Ray #1 of my lifetime.... for me though, when comparing to Floyd - both Ray and Roy Jones Jnr - later career hurt them. The knockdowns signalled an inability to change style etc. Ray was pretty much finished as an elite fighter at 31 years of age - Floyd had 9 years on that. I think also people forget how close he was to losing to Kevin Howard - it was a terrible stoppage and the fight was right in the balance with 1 round to go (it really is one of the worst stoppages I have seen). Floyd used to be a speedster relying on a reflex based defense and quick hands - when those started to deteriorate, he changed his style to still be bloody impossible to hit. It really was the Shane Mosley fight that convinced me he is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. I cannot make comparisons with Ray Robinson or Henry Armstrong - but anyone from the 70s onwards I personally think Floyd is better than P4P of all time. I think only Ali showcased a similar ability to adapt with father time.

Castillo roughed him up and landed a bunch more punches in fight 1 , weird to me that someone would think Floyd clearly won that, I am the opposite lol

Do you just assume that because it's Floyd well then he must've outboxed the guy? He actually got hits lots for once in that fight.

....I do however cringe when people say Maidana beat him. Floyd absorbed a fair share of glancing blows, etc but ended up punching holes through him from middle rounds onwards. Quality punching clearly trumped the quantity.

lazboy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 09:01 ....I do however cringe when people say Maidana beat him. Floyd absorbed a fair share of glancing blows, etc but ended up punching holes through him from middle rounds onwards. Quality punching clearly trumped the quantity.

I've only watched the fight once live. I didn't give Floyd any of the first six.

world ranked wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 11:34

lazboy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 09:01 ....I do however cringe when people say Maidana beat him. Floyd absorbed a fair share of glancing blows, etc but ended up punching holes through him from middle rounds onwards. Quality punching clearly trumped the quantity.

I've only watched the fight once live. I didn't give Floyd any of the first six.

First point is I think it’s a very entertaining fight. I watched it a few times back in the day.
I can understand people seeing Maidana give him problems and it being a close fight but not a Maidana win. I can’t understand it but no hard feelings.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 11:35 No. but he was out for 4 years before coming back to beat Hagler, which by any reckoning was some achievement.

That's always been an interesting fight, for the record I thought Leonard won handily.
Hagler v Leonard stirred up emotions for years to come especially from long term experienced fans.
But to the point, having a 4 year layoff does have it's advantages, fresher, taken less punishment, all the while why a guy like Hagler soldiered on through tough fights.
Sure Leonard was moving up, but to say he was on the scrap heap and a complete outsider just wouldn't be true in my eyes.

Evander wrote: ↑08 Jul 2020, 00:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 11:35 No. but he was out for 4 years before coming back to beat Hagler, which by any reckoning was some achievement.

That's always been an interesting fight, for the record I thought Leonard won handily.
Hagler v Leonard stirred up emotions for years to come especially from long term experienced fans.
But to the point, having a 4 year layoff does have it's advantages, fresher, taken less punishment, all the while why a guy like Hagler soldiered on through tough fights.
Sure Leonard was moving up, but to say he was on the scrap heap and a complete outsider just wouldn't be true in my eyes.

Immediately before the Hagler bout, Leonard had only competed in one fight in more than five years, which was the failed comeback against Kevin Howard at 149lbs, which occurred three years prior and resulted in Sugar Ray suffering a fourth-round knockdown.

The lengthy layoff, due to a detached retina, didn’t give Sugar Ray any advantage over Hagler, because his overall athleticism and ring sharpness would have been adversely affected by such inactivity. And his performance against Kevin Howard suggested that he was a shot fighter, because his timing was way off in that bout.

If you don’t agree, then watch Leonard’s contest against Kevin Howard and see if that persuades you to change your mind?

There’s a good reason why Leonard was initially installed as a 6:1 underdog for the Hagler fight, and hindsight doesn’t detract from the justification for the vast majority of people predicting a stoppage defeat for Sugar Ray in that bout.

lazboy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 23:59

world ranked wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 11:34

I've only watched the fight once live. I didn't give Floyd any of the first six.

First point is I think it’s a very entertaining fight. I watched it a few times back in the day.
I can understand people seeing Maidana give him problems and it being a close fight but not a Maidana win. I can’t understand it but no hard feelings.

I mean you can disagree about rounds. I don't want to watch it again because I might look for something that's not there but I know for me from memory I didn't give Floyd none of the first six rounds though he did fight much better late.

lazboy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 23:59

world ranked wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 11:34

I've only watched the fight once live. I didn't give Floyd any of the first six.

First point is I think it’s a very entertaining fight. I watched it a few times back in the day.
I can understand people seeing Maidana give him problems and it being a close fight but not a Maidana win. I can’t understand it but no hard feelings.

Sure, but sometimes, Floyd can get the benefit of the doubt in fights not involving DLH or Canelo. One judge only had Judah winning 1 round.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑08 Jul 2020, 13:36

lazboy wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 23:59

First point is I think it’s a very entertaining fight. I watched it a few times back in the day.
I can understand people seeing Maidana give him problems and it being a close fight but not a Maidana win. I can’t understand it but no hard feelings.

Sure, but sometimes, Floyd can get the benefit of the doubt in fights not involving DLH or Canelo. One judge only had Judah winning 1 round.

Awarding him only one round is criminal. I see your point but I’m very stubborn when it comes to maidana mayweather one. I just don’t see how maidana beat him.

Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

Of all those guys, which one of them would beat Hearns. Hagler?

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

Talk about fanboyism....sheesh

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

floyd whooped casitllo?

how many of those guys were welter fights anyway

Hard to Floyd beating bigger opponents like SRR, SRL, Tommy Hearns, Hagler, Duran.

Cause those guys are real legends in their own right and crossover stars among other things outside boxing. It became way harder later on too crossover. Few did it. At least among the smaller guys like those 4.

He got names. Of course, Floyd is pissed. He always rants about sh*t when it comes to the p4p-ratings and such. Such a dork. Really.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 07:24

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

Of all those guys, which one of them would beat Hearns. Hagler?

Who knows? I don't like speculation in fantasy match ups and we don't really know. Great fights either way :P

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

DLH and Pac were clearly past it when he fought them, and Mayweather was not impressive in either fight. Castillo and Corrales? So what? Mayweather did nothing remotely close to beating the guys Leonard did.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jul 2020, 08:25

Paci wrote: ↑09 Jul 2020, 05:19 Pffft, too much fanboyism in this thread.

I do think Mayweather do rated over Leonard in the welters and p4p. But, either way both guys are legends in their own right. If they fought in the same era, sure then it would be something. But then Maywesther was in the late 90s to the middle of the 10s. That is a long spann. With good names.

Then again Leonard did beat Hagler, Herans and Duran that puts him up their. Still Mayweather whoop'd De La Hoya, Manny, Canelo, Corrales and Castillo among others. Time will favor Mayweather in my eyes.

DLH and Pac were clearly past it when he fought them, and Mayweather was not impressive in either fight. Castillo and Corrales? So what? Mayweather did nothing remotely close to beating the guys Leonard did.

DLH was clearly past prime. Pacquaio fight was it always brought Pacquiao was the only one out of his prime.