BoxRec

I would go for Carl Williams in Birmingham also - a great atmosphere for Bruno's first UK fight out of London and Williams put up a really good show that went into the tenth round. Bruno was pretty impressive against a slightly-over-the-hill but still decent opposition which makes the timid matchmaking of Duff-Lawless-Astaire-Barrett all the more infuriating.

For me, his win vs Williams was his most impressive performance followed by Coetzer, Eklund and then Coetzee - how he bombed out Ribalta was pretty impressive also.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2022, 22:44 what would rank as frank's top 3-5 wins?

I’d prefer to flipflop this and look at his losses. Albeit my memory of these is sketchy as usually watched these after plenty of cold ones.

When he lost to Bonecrusher Smith, from memory he dominated every round and then fatigued out in the last round and took the standard 40 punches when hurt. But yeah practically controlled the whole fight against a wily if unspectacular heavy who sucker punched him in the last round.

For long periods he held his own in the Tim Witherspoon fight, where again he fatigued late on in the fight. Tim Witherspoon was hugely underrated at this point of his career and gave Larry Holmes all he could handle when Holmes was at the peak of his powers.

Losses to Tyson and Lewis pretty much par for the course, he ran out of belief against Tyson and ran out of talent against Lewis.

stujones wrote: ↑16 Feb 2022, 18:35

clivelawrence wrote: ↑16 Feb 2022, 17:01 Think big Frank is being hugely underrated here. Can't see why Joshua would place above him. Frank fought far worthier opposition later on and at least let punches fly. Contrary to popular believe he had a dodgy chin, he didnt. He took a punch too well but then stood there defenceless to take 40 more. He'd have been served better with a less solid chin where he went down after a decent blow, could take the 10 in an effort to recuperate. Lewis by a country mile for this one.

Can see what you are saying and to be fair - I find it hard to seperate Bruno and Joshua - although Joshua's resume is better. Another major issue with Bruno was his stamina. As brave as it was I do think there is some overating of his first fight with Tyson - he hardly throws a punch from the 4th round onwards - he was spent.

I think Bruno could have hurt Joshua, I think Bruno had probably a better boxing IQ than Joshua (and Bruno's wasn't much but that's a poor I rate Joshua on that front) stamina is close and obviously AJ could hurt Bruno. I think AJ naturally size advantage would have possibly been a factor.

Yeah you are indeed correct, unfortunately big Frank was blessed with energy sapping muscularity that hindered him in fights where opponents fought back over his earlier career punchbags. I disagree that Joshua has a better resume and by a mighty wide margin. Hate fence sitting and would prefer to have an unequivocal definitive opinion, but I could see in a hypothetical world AJ and FB winning 5 a piece of a 10 fight programme. With the exception of marginal superior stamina, don’t see that AJ brings anything to the table that Frank didn’t bring before and Frank was easily more inclined to let his hands go, so would likely win early or gas out mid to late rounds and get blown away.

The media liked to paint Frank as a lovable buffoon, and he went along with it which for me detracted that he was first and foremast a heavyweight boxer. I guess he had a limited one trick pony technique and without doubt he hadn’t the ringcraft for a plan ‘B’ during a fight, nevertheless, he was pretty sturdy opposition for any boxer past or present over the first 6 rounds or so.

Bruno fought better, Joshua has better wins. Had Bruno fought and beat Mercer then different story.

Brave loses are still loses

Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 09:26 Bruno fought better, Joshua has better wins. Had Bruno fought and beat Mercer then different story.

Brave loses are still loses

Joshua would have lost to the men Bruno lost to on the nights he lost to them, so not sure those results put Bruno below AJ.

Also, IMO, a win over a 30 Yr old Oliver McCall coming off a KO of Lennox Lewis is a better result than beating a 41 Yr old Wlad Klitschko coming off a wide loss to Fury and 16 months activity.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

You guys really hate AJ. I am not even a fan but these comments haha

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Didn't Bonecrusher stop Tim in 1?

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:08

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

This goes round and round. I’m sure Bruno was well covered in this thread about 20 pages ago! I loved watching Bruno, starting from Witherspoon onwards. But I don’t really believe he had the speed and athleticism of Joshua, particularly when Bruno bulked up over 17 stone. It’s such a massive stretch to suggest Coetzee wasn’t just coming for a payday and Carl Williams wasn’t well over the hill, (and probably would have gone the distance without a friendly ref). The McCall win was decent-ish but the trashing in Tyson 2 kind of put that version of Bruno in some perspective.

polecateddy wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:19

Billy Tully wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:08

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

This goes round and round. I’m sure Bruno was well covered in this thread about 20 pages ago! I loved watching Bruno, starting from Witherspoon onwards. But I don’t really believe he had the speed and athleticism of Joshua, particularly when Bruno bulked up over 17 stone. It’s such a massive stretch to suggest Coetzee wasn’t just coming for a payday and Carl Williams wasn’t well over the hill, (and probably would have gone the distance without a friendly ref). The McCall win was decent-ish but the trashing in Tyson 2 kind of put that version of Bruno in some perspective.

Believe me, I'm not defending Bruno's record, but holding losses against Witherspoon, Tyson and Lewis against him when comparing him and AJ is pretty rich.

AJ would have a long, long 12 rounds staying out of bother against Bonecrusher Smith.

ya

Bruno beat an iron man in McCall and gave Tyson and Lewis hell.

What are Wladimir's qualifications to beat him? WHAT?

bruno by brutal ko over both klitschkos and aj

Billy Tully wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:08

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

Yep.
Just look at the ages of Joshua's "big wins":
Klitschko was 41
Pulev was 39
Povetkin was 38
Takam was 37

You can't legitimately count these as big wins if we pretend these guys were really good in their primes.

McCall was no legend, but that win far exceeds anything Joshua has ever done.
Certainly worth pointing out that Joshua somehow managed to get stopped by Ruiz. Bruno never lost to anyone that bad.

would anyone who boxed since lewis retired beat mccall?

king bruno probably would've beat aj, vitali, wladimir, fury, wilder, and everyone in between tbh, maybe even sme on the same night. tony tucker and orlin norris would rule over the past 2 decades as well, since they beat young mccall, more impressive than anything anyone has done in a long time

we also have to factor in how many '10 round fighters' each guy beat. guys like bill sharkey and walter santemore. bruno had like twice the wins joshua does, so that makes him higher for sure in that measure

It is a surprising fact that Bruno never scored a single knockdown in any of his 5 world title fights or in fact in that high class eliminator type contest against Bonecrusher Smith.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 15:13 ya

Bruno beat an iron man in McCall and gave Tyson and Lewis hell.

What are Wladimir's qualifications to beat him? WHAT?

bruno by brutal ko over both klitschkos and aj

"Brutal" KO over Vitali..?!

Wide UD for Vitali more often than not.
Puncher's chance against Fury. (It's not unlikely though.)

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 15:13 ya

Bruno beat an iron man in McCall and gave Tyson and Lewis hell.

What are Wladimir's qualifications to beat him? WHAT?

bruno by brutal ko over both klitschkos and aj

"Brutal" KO over, Vitali..?!

Wide UD for Vitali more often than not.
Puncher's chance against Fury. (It's not unlikely though.)
Every chance against AJ.

What's with the McCall love in? The guy was not even in the top 10 when he beat Lewis. He lost to Buster Douglas, Tony Tucker and Orlin Norris. He laboured to a close points win over Jesse fornicating Ferguson.

These were all when he was sane mentally. People are putting "age" asterix over Ajs best wins....MCCall was mentally shot vs Bruno, crying in the ring and not throwing punches.

Yes Povetkin, Pulev, Takam and 41 year old Klitchsko would have beaten the McCall who faced Bruno..

Which heavyweight champion post Lewis would have beaten McCall. Why do we need to look at champions, plenty of mediocre fighters beat hi anyway. Who would win between Orlin Norris and Usyk . But my main point was Oliver McCall was fucked when he fought Bruno....we weren't dealing with a prime McCall....but yes both Klitchsko would have outclassed a prime McCall.....I repeat the guy lost to that pound for pound atg Tony Tucker

the mccall love is from the boxing history bruhs veering into this section.........same place where wlad doesn't belong in the same sentence as bruno, vitali gets smashed, aj couldnt hold the jock, etc

even bugner is simply a level above! his losses alone are superior to anything any hw has done in decades. orlin norris and tony tucker, by beating mccall, are too.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:08

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 12:05 Joshua has better wins? Outside of senior citizens and a fats slobs, who has he beaten? Nobody. At least Bruno beat McCall and Coetzee.
If Joshua would have actually fight him, he would have lost to Bruno.

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

Takam might be a journeyman, although I did forget Parker but anyway I'll ask again name next one fighter WHEN THEY FOUGHT FRANK that Bruno won that woukd have beaten Takam. So I dont mean the McCall who kod Lewis, but the McCall who had been in and out of mental institutions and cried into the ring. Likewise it's not the Carl Williams who ran Holmes close.

I'll never call Lewis victory over McCall a good win because practically any heavyweight would have beaten that McCall

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 20:51 the mccall love is from the boxing history bruhs veering into this section.........same place where wlad doesn't belong in the same sentence as bruno, vitali gets smashed, aj couldnt hold the jock, etc

even bugner is simply a level above! his losses alone are superior to anything any hw has done in decades. orlin norris and tony tucker, by beating mccall, are too.

How high do you rate Peter Buckley.

And what about Vitali then ....loss to Lewis, beat Adamek who beat Golota, beat Danny Willians , who beat Tyson , who beat Orlin Norris.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 20:51 the mccall love is from the boxing history bruhs veering into this section.........same place where wlad doesn't belong in the same sentence as bruno, vitali gets smashed, aj couldnt hold the jock, etc

even bugner is simply a level above! his losses alone are superior to anything any hw has done in decades. orlin norris and tony tucker, by beating mccall, are too.

Just like Ross Purrity, Corrie Sanders, and Lamon Brewster deserve high praise for stopping the iron chinned Wladimir.
But AJ deserves more, after all he managed to beat the 41-year old version and only got decked once.
Plus AJ managed to go 1-1 against the legendary Andy Ruiz.

Vitaly managed to last 9 rounds against Chris Byrd and 6 against Lennox Lewis. Plus he actually beat several professional fighters.
We need to finally start giving AJ and Vitali the praise that they so richly deserve. So underrated.

you tell them bruh! and beating oliver mccall, like tony tucker, orlin norris, and frank did, puts them all above any heavyweiight to box since lennox lewis retired, simply no feat comes close to this trio! hell, even beating coetzee is alone more impressive than any wins since lennox was around

based on losing handily but gamely to joe frazier, bugner also rates above them all (these dudes actually claimed this in the bh section lolz). i guess by extension ringo bonevena is better than any hw to debut in the last 30 years too!

cleveland williams even rates over tyson fury

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 21:04

Billy Tully wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 14:08

stujones wrote: ↑17 Feb 2022, 13:19

McCall was not in grade shape mentally and nearly lost to an ancient Larry Holmes. McCall was tough and had a lot of good things but also, Lewis aside, lost when he stepped up.

I would say Klitchsko even at 41 would have beaten the McCall who Bruno faced. Hell I think any domestic level Heavyweight would have beaten that version of McCall who basically did nothing for the opening half of the fight.

Coetzee better than Povetkin? Not saying it was a peak POV, but it wasnt the covid ravaged one either.

Whyte, Takam and Pulev. Who is better that Bruno beat? An over the hill Williams?

Sure Tyson, Lewis and Witherspoon would have abihilated Joshua (but Bonecrusher?) but I'd rather look at wins than brave defeats

Carl Williams was indeed over the hill but in the same paragraph you point to a 40 year old Pulev as a notable win for AJ?

Takam is just a journeyman, not sure why he's there.

Takam might be a journeyman, although I did forget Parker but anyway I'll ask again name next one fighter WHEN THEY FOUGHT FRANK that Bruno won that woukd have beaten Takam. So I dont mean the McCall who kod Lewis, but the McCall who had been in and out of mental institutions and cried into the ring. Likewise it's not the Carl Williams who ran Holmes close.

I'll never call Lewis victory over McCall a good win because practically any heavyweight would have beaten that McCall

McCall would have beaten Takam the night he lost to Bruno. Unless you think the non-puncher Takam had something to hold McCall off.

You seem to be confusing Bruno/McCall with Lewis/McCall 2?

Also, Coetzee would beat Takam. Again, it's not like Takam is poleaxing anyone in the first. Coetzee looked the same as ever versus Tillis before Bruno.