BoxRec

Controversial wrote: ↑30 Mar 2025, 03:37

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 20:26

Controversial wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 14:41

Usyk has always been a HW in all but name, he was over 200 for all his CW fights on fight night and the same likely for his opponents. In fact he was fighting at HW in his first few pro fights.

You say size doesn't matter, that's a ridiculous statement. There are always exceptions to every rule but invariably they are more rare than common. There are plenty of ATG fighters that never won titles at higher divisions, arguably the greatest fighter in history SRR was stopped for the only time in his career when he tried his luck at LHW. Normally the ones that do win take calculated risks or have some sort of advantage. Like SRL making Lalonde weigh in at 168 but putting his LHW belt on the line. Or RJJ fighting the weakest HW in terms of ability instead of challenging the better ones. Hearns had the frame to bulk up, he was almost 6'2" which is why he went up to CW. And let's not talk about the light or super divisions where fighters can add or drop a few pounds and call themselves a multi weight champion, we all know that's nonsense. A true great wins titles in the original 8 divisions.

I'm very confused. When Usyk is 200 lbs, he's a heavyweight, even though he's a cruiserweight. When Louis is 200lbs, he's a light heavyweight.

I never said Louis was a LHW, you don’t read things properly or read what you want to read. It’s not difficult, Usyk is the weight of a HW when he walks in the ring for his CW fights, like lots of fighters they cut weight and then rehydrate. Bivol is a LHW but walks into the ring at 190-195, the same size as a lot of the HWs Louis fought. Back in the day they had same day weigh ins and no weight cut needed.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 05:30

Ezzard wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 03:33

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑28 Mar 2025, 13:36

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 05:30

Ezzard wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 03:33

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 05:30

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Mar 2025, 11:13
Keep hearing that Louis only beat 17 opponents over the magical 200-pound mark. guess what? Usyk has beaten a grand total of 7.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Sep 2021, 10:48

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑29 Sep 2021, 17:39 simple question then

whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?

straight up answer bruh

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 05:30

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Mar 2025, 05:30

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:12

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:14

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 07:38

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Seamus wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 10:01 Which means he's bigger than George Foreman who was considered a monster.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:50

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:14

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09
If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Controversial wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 12:23

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:50

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:14

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Size isn’t as basic as equating it to inches. Overall size, ability to pack on good weight, the ability to carry your speed/power etc all comes into it. Tommy Hearns is taller than plenty of HWs but his frame was obviously smaller, no one would say he beats Mike Tyson because Tyson is shorter. Louis would likely be a CW today, yes he could make HW and have success but he would be facing guys physically bigger and stronger than him. Chris Billam Smith is a good example, he’s 6’3” and over 200 on fight night, so he’s a HW in reality but fighting under the guise of a CW. He’s ruled out a move to HW. I’m obviously not comparing Louis to CBS in terms of ability but in terms of size, if anything CBS is the bigger man. I’m sure CBS could pack on 20-30lbs if he wanted but then he would likely be slower and tire quicker so he sticks with CW where he has the best of both worlds. Plenty of big CWs don’t make the leap to HW and the reason is often as
they know they would struggle against the best big HWs.

Seamus wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 15:21 Ron Lyle would beat anyone on JL's resume. Norton, Shavers, Young and Quarry would have a good shot at it as well. Don't think it's even necessary to say what Ali, Foreman and Frazier would do.

Seamus wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 15:21 Ron Lyle would beat anyone on JL's resume. Norton, Shavers, Young and Quarry would have a good shot at it as well. Don't think it's even necessary to say what Ali, Foreman and Frazier would do.

Benny The Kid wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 16:27 Charles & Walcott are vastly underrated. They are certainly better than Lyle.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:48

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:12

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:50

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:14

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025, 11:09
If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 05:01

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:48

Ezzard wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 06:12

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 05:44

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 05:01

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025, 07:48

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

Three things.....

1. Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Louis.
2. Joe weighed 200 or there abouts for most of his title reign, Usyk weighed 226 for the Fury fight. 26Ibs is not a huge weight advantage in the heavyweight division.
3. This is Joe Louis we're talking about. A consensus all time top 2 heavyweight.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 06:59

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 05:44

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025, 05:01

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

Three things.....

1. Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Louis.
2. Joe weighed 200 or there abouts for most of his title reign, Usyk weighed 226 for the Fury fight. 26Ibs is not a huge weight advantage in the heavyweight division.
3. This is Joe Louis we're talking about. A consensus all time top 2 heavyweight.

4. Does he put on weight or not?