Evander Holyfield (Lewis 2) vs Oleksandr Usyk (Dubois 2)

[Cojimar 1946]

Even if you don't rate this era of heavyweights Holyfield has enough bad performances against poor opponents to make that argument suspect. If Holyfield is capable of losing to Moorer and getting dropped by Cooper surely he could drop a few rounds to Joshua

Why are we using heavyweight to begin with when the cruiserweight version of Usyk is probably better suited for fighting Holyfield

[gilgamesh]

We are way apart on this. This had probably been beat to death. Ultimately, it mostly goes down to this: Some people think the hw division has been awful for the last 20 years or so. Others don't.

The Heavyweight division from 2015 to now is the best decade of Heavyweights outside of the 70's or 90's in my opinion.

It certainly is better than the 80's when Holmes and Tyson were dominant Champions with no particularly noteworthy challengers.

[Ambling Alp II]

And this is where we disagree. I just don't see what you see in these guys. At all. Not saying Thomas, Witherspoon, Tucker, Dokes etc. were great. They. However, at least I could see something in them. Some had speed and/or boxing skills, others power. they weren't like wilder who had no idea what he was doing.

Fury-Wilder always stands out to me. current fans were talking about this a lot. I watch it on YouTube, and nothing. Take away the two rounds where Wilder decked Fury, and you have two guys standing around trying to look mean. Fury would next to nothing for 3 minutes, the bell would ring and he would raise his hands like he did something spectacular.

Fury was not was bad in other fights but that isn't saying much. Usyk should have been able to completely dominate this clown and he couldn't. And he is the best.

And lets remember, in the 1980s we did have Holmes and Tyson. That's a big deal. too bad they weren't ion each other's prime, but still. We should not just dismiss the best fighters if they were indeed great.

[Cojimar 1946]

Usyk easily won the rematch. He landed 35 more punches according to compubox and outlanded Fury in 10 out of 12 rounds. All 3 judges had him winning 8 to 4 which is a very comfortable margin of victory.

Usyk was also 37 by the time the Fury fights happened and likely past his prime

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh man.

Punch stats?
-The punch count is not 100% accurate.
-As much credit goes to a punch that is hard to one that is had nothing on it
-A punch that barely grazes a guy counts as much as a punch that lands flush.

8-4 is a comfortable margin? Usually not. In this case, it was not. All you need to do is find two rounds that reasonably could have been scored for Fury that scored for Usyk.
In round 1, almost nothing happened. The two judges who scored it for Usyk could just as easily have scored it for Fury.
Had they done so, it would have been 7-5 which is of course close.

Round 9 could have gone either way. The same two judges scored for Usyk. Had they scored it for Fury, the fight would have been 6-6. A draw.

This was a close fight. First one was closer. Joshua fights were close.

[gilgamesh]

Oh man.

Punch stats?
-The punch count is not 100% accurate.
-As much credit goes to a punch that is hard to one that is had nothing on it
-A punch that barely grazes a guy counts as much as a punch that lands flush.

8-4 is a comfortable margin? Usually not. In this case, it was not. All you need to do is find two rounds that reasonably could have been scored for Fury that scored for Usyk.
In round 1, almost nothing happened. The two judges who scored it for Usyk could just as easily have scored it for Fury.
Had they done so, it would have been 7-5 which is of course close.

Round 9 could have gone either way. The same two judges scored for Usyk. Had they scored it for Fury, the fight would have been 6-6. A draw.

This was a close fight. First one was closer. Joshua fights were close.

A close fight with one of the longest reigning Heavyweight Champions in Heavyweight Boxing history?

Well that settles it. This guy is a bum!

Joshua or Fury either one have more title wins than Thomas, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Greg Page,
and Mike Weaver combined.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Usyk is very clearly an atg boxer

You are in era denial

[Cent0089]

Oh man.

Punch stats?
-The punch count is not 100% accurate.
-As much credit goes to a punch that is hard to one that is had nothing on it
-A punch that barely grazes a guy counts as much as a punch that lands flush.

8-4 is a comfortable margin? Usually not. In this case, it was not. All you need to do is find two rounds that reasonably could have been scored for Fury that scored for Usyk.
In round 1, almost nothing happened. The two judges who scored it for Usyk could just as easily have scored it for Fury.
Had they done so, it would have been 7-5 which is of course close.

Round 9 could have gone either way. The same two judges scored for Usyk. Had they scored it for Fury, the fight would have been 6-6. A draw.

This was a close fight. First one was closer. Joshua fights were close.

A close fight with one of the longest reigning Heavyweight Champions in Heavyweight Boxing history?

Well that settles it. This guy is a bum!

Joshua or Fury either one have more title wins than Thomas, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Greg Page,
and Mike Weaver combined.

Close fights ...Out of 48 rounds against Fury and Joshua, Usyk lost no more than 15. Hurt Both of them badly, and he was not hurt at any point. Not close at all to me

[gilgamesh]

They were close, but Usyk was the clear winner nevertheless.

[Ambling Alp II]

The biggest win on any scorecard for any of the 4 fights was 117-112. That is n't exactly dominating. At all.

At a minimum, he lost 3 rounds on every scorecard in the first Josua fight, 4 in the second, 7 in the 1st fury fight, and 4 in the 2nd fury fight. That is 16 rounds lost right there.

At a maximum, he lost 5 rounds by one judge in the first Joshua fight, 7 in the second Joshua fight, 7 in the first Fury fight, and 4 in the 2nd fury fight. That's 23 rounds lost out of 48. not dominating whatsoever.

A truly great fighter would not have had this much trouble all four times. He should have gotten some stoppages or lopsided wins in a least three of these fights. He didn't because he really is not that much better than these guys who have a lot of shortcomings.

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh man.

Punch stats?
-The punch count is not 100% accurate.
-As much credit goes to a punch that is hard to one that is had nothing on it
-A punch that barely grazes a guy counts as much as a punch that lands flush.

8-4 is a comfortable margin? Usually not. In this case, it was not. All you need to do is find two rounds that reasonably could have been scored for Fury that scored for Usyk.
In round 1, almost nothing happened. The two judges who scored it for Usyk could just as easily have scored it for Fury.
Had they done so, it would have been 7-5 which is of course close.

Round 9 could have gone either way. The same two judges scored for Usyk. Had they scored it for Fury, the fight would have been 6-6. A draw.

This was a close fight. First one was closer. Joshua fights were close.

A close fight with one of the longest reigning Heavyweight Champions in Heavyweight Boxing history?

Well that settles it. This guy is a bum!

Joshua or Fury either one have more title wins than Thomas, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Greg Page,
and Mike Weaver combined.

Oh yes, lets go by titles defenses. They are so important and never deceiving. Tommy Burns had more titles defenses than Joshua or Fury, or Usyk . Guess we have to rate Burns higher.

[Cent0089]

The biggest win on any scorecard for any of the 4 fights was 117-112. That is n't exactly dominating. At all.

At a minimum, he lost 3 rounds on every scorecard in the first Josua fight, 4 in the second, 7 in the 1st fury fight, and 4 in the 2nd fury fight. That is 16 rounds lost right there.

At a maximum, he lost 5 rounds by one judge in the first Joshua fight, 7 in the second Joshua fight, 7 in the first Fury fight, and 4 in the 2nd fury fight. That's 23 rounds lost out of 48. not dominating whatsoever.

A truly great fighter would not have had this much trouble all four times. He should have gotten some stoppages or lopsided wins in a least three of these fights. He didn't because he really is not that much better than these guys who have a lot of shortcomings.

Truly great fighter should not have that much trouble with Ray Mercer right

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't think it would be easy to make a case for a draw let alone a Fury victory when he was outlanded in 10 out of 12 rounds. The judges giving him 4 rounds are already scoring some close rounds for Fury that could go the other way. If you are willing to give Usyks opponents every possible benefit of the doubt you could claim they were close but the same is true for lots of Holyfields wins. You could argue for Holmes deserving a draw or Mercer if you give them every close round. So that's not an argument that favors Holyfield.

The scores for the fights would be as follows if we award the round to the guy who lands more punches

Usyk Joshua 1 7-5
Usyk Joshua 2 9-3
Usyk Fury 1 7-5
Usyk Fury 2 10-1-1

The first fights were close but he comfortably seems to have taken the rematches

[2128778]

I don't think it would be easy to make a case for a draw let alone a Fury victory when he was outlanded in 10 out of 12 rounds. The judges giving him 4 rounds are already scoring some close rounds for Fury that could go the other way. If you are willing to give Usyks opponents every possible benefit of the doubt you could claim they were close but the same is true for lots of Holyfields wins. You could argue for Holmes deserving a draw or Mercer if you give them every close round. So that's not an argument that favors Holyfield.

The scores for the fights would be as follows if we award the round to the guy who lands more punches

Usyk Joshua 1 7-5
Usyk Joshua 2 9-3
Usyk Fury 1 7-5
Usyk Fury 2 10-1-1

The first fights were close but he comfortably seems to have taken the rematches

I thought Usyk-Joshua 2 was closer than the Usyk-Joshua 1.

That said, I agree that Usyk-Fury 1 was definitely more competitive than Usyk-Fury 2.

[gilgamesh]

Oh man.

Punch stats?
-The punch count is not 100% accurate.
-As much credit goes to a punch that is hard to one that is had nothing on it
-A punch that barely grazes a guy counts as much as a punch that lands flush.

8-4 is a comfortable margin? Usually not. In this case, it was not. All you need to do is find two rounds that reasonably could have been scored for Fury that scored for Usyk.
In round 1, almost nothing happened. The two judges who scored it for Usyk could just as easily have scored it for Fury.
Had they done so, it would have been 7-5 which is of course close.

Round 9 could have gone either way. The same two judges scored for Usyk. Had they scored it for Fury, the fight would have been 6-6. A draw.

This was a close fight. First one was closer. Joshua fights were close.

A close fight with one of the longest reigning Heavyweight Champions in Heavyweight Boxing history?

Well that settles it. This guy is a bum!

Joshua or Fury either one have more title wins than Thomas, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Greg Page,
and Mike Weaver combined.

Oh yes, lets go by titles defenses. They are so important and never deceiving. Tommy Burns had more titles defenses than Joshua or Fury, or Usyk . Guess we have to rate Burns higher.

At least it's something lol. You're rating Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tubbs over Champions of today for no reason save for nostalgia.

What is their great achievement that hasn't been matched and surpassed?

[Ambling Alp II]

I was saying that the number defenses by themselves don't mean anything. At all. You can always find an opponent to beat. Watching a vulnerable fighter like Wladimir Klitschko make title defense after title in terrible fights is an indication of a weak era, not a strong one.

Then when he was ancient, fury beats him in a competitive fight and we are supposed to think it was some great achievement. Then Fury beats some stiffs and it goes on.

Liston only had 2 title defenses, then lost to Ali. Frazier had only a few title defenses, then lost to foreman. foreman only had three, then lost to Ali. Guess they weren't any good.

The reason I think the division sucks is because the fights suck. All the time. Can't watch any of them twice.

As for Thomas and Tubbs specifically, again, not saying they were legends.
However, Thomas was a very good all-around fighter. Good boxing skills, fast, had some power. Good stamina, good chin.

Tubbs was of course out of shape and didn't have much power. However, he had good boxing skills and very good hand speed.

What does say Wilder do better than say Thomas? More power. That''s it. Well when you are wild, don't throw many paunches, don't know how to set anything up, you aren't going to land much, especially against someone halfway decent. And he doesn't know how to finish an opponent.

And Fury almost lost to him. Twice. (judges saved him the first time.)
What does Fury do better than Thomas? Anything? Jab, hook, overhand right, chin, speed, stamina? Nope.
Usyk knows what he is doing. But he struggles with Fury, twice? And Joshua, twice?

Again, if we are going by the number of title defenses, Burns is better than almost all of these guys. where should Burns be rated?

[gilgamesh]

Foreman beat both Frazier and Norton with his title wins, those are both bigger wins than any of Wlad or Fury's respective title defenses.

Sonny Liston was a great Heavyweight who was basically froze out of his title shot for many years. I do think he's often overrated historically though.

As for Tommy Burns. The truth is I have no idea how good that guy was or wasn't and you don't either. There's no footage of him. I suspect he was better than a lot of people give him credit for, but it definitely speaks to it being a weak time in Heavyweight history when a Super Middleweight is the closest thing they could find to a decent Heavyweight. All we really know of that era is what we read.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Usyk is clearly an all time great fighter. Hed compete with holyfield just fine. Usyk is better than moorrer, and byrd, and imbragimov, hw james toney, - all counterpunchers (most leftys) that holyfield struggled mightily against

[Cojimar 1946]

Usyk didn't appear to significantly struggle in the rematches with either Joshua or Fury. Out landing someone in 9 or 10 rounds out of 12 is considered decisive for most guys so why not Usyk?

Usyks in his prime only appeared to come close to losing against Joshua 1. On the other hand Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall and barely got past Mercer. That's 3 fights where he either lost or nearly lost to non great heavyweights. How is that less damaging than Usyk having a somewhat close win over Joshua and past prime having a somewhat close fight with Fury?

[witherspoon]

Liston only had 2 title defenses, then lost to Ali. Frazier had only a few title defenses, then lost to foreman. foreman only had three, then lost to Ali. Guess they weren't any good.

To be fair to Liston, he put the cart before the horse, got all of his title defenses out of the way before he became champ.

[gilgamesh]

Liston only had 2 title defenses, then lost to Ali. Frazier had only a few title defenses, then lost to foreman. foreman only had three, then lost to Ali. Guess they weren't any good.

To be fair to Liston, he put the cart before the horse, got all of his title defenses out of the way before he became champ.

Which really wasn't his fault. The circumstances of the time kept him from getting the title sooner. Same with Jack Johnson. Both of those guys were probably the best Heavyweight in the world 2 or 3 years before capturing their title

[witherspoon]

Which really wasn't his fault.

Absolutely. My point is I think it's wrong to hold Listons lack of defenses against him.

If memory serves me correctly, he strategically cleaned out the top contenders in order to force a title shot.

[gilgamesh]

Which really wasn't his fault.

Absolutely. My point is I think it's wrong to hold Listons lack of defenses against him.

If memory serves me correctly, he strategically cleaned out the top contenders in order to force a title shot.

The main thing i hold against Liston is taking a dive against Ali in the rematch. That alone drops my opinion of him significantly

[witherspoon]

The main thing i hold against Liston is taking a dive against Ali in the rematch. That alone drops my opinion of him significantly

I think that's plausible, he looked like he was able to continue (and he was actually on his feet when the fight was stopped).

I could see some kind of nation of islam plot to threaten or bribe Liston into taking the dive, They must've thought they'd hit the jackpot with a heavyweight champion and of course, they probably thought he was just a big mouthed kid who got lucky against Liston and needed all the help he could get in the rematch.

Either that or he trained hard to get into shape for the rematch and peaked when Ali's hernia postponed the fight, then didn't have it in him to go through the extra weeks of sacrifice to maintain his conditioning (something that Ali himself accomplished admirably when Foreman's cut postponed The Rumble for six weeks, with the added burden of being trapped in Zaire).
But In contrast to Ali against Foreman, Liston knew that victory in the rematch would do very little to elevate his legacy. I can understand the lack of motivation. The stakes were nowhere near as high for Liston.

Either way these are exceptional circumstances and I personally don't feel that either scenario detracts from Listons character as a fighter who fought to a finish with a broken jaw in his heyday.

[gilgamesh]

What about the fact that quit in the 1st Ali fight also when it again looked like he could continue.